Amazon Looking for a new HQ - Detroit-Windsor Bid Rejected

**aj3647** · October-20-17, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

The Wisconsin Foxconn deal was really a "conn" job. How many of these jobs will really be around by mid-century, and how many might go to Illinois residents? I think Mt. Pleasant WI is less than 25 miles from the state line. But Walker et.al. do love their trickle up economics.

Exactly. There is no guarantee that Foxconn will even create the full 13,000 jobs they promised and there certainly is no guarantee in this economy that they will maintain 13,000 jobs there for the next 30-40 years. When you put up billions in incentives to lure these types of industries, you assume a massive risk. Wisconsin may end up losing hundreds of millions of dollars on that deal.

That's why I like Toronto's bid. They aren't offering billions in incentives for Amazon to locate there, they are simply selling themselves on their own inherent merits.

**bust** · October-20-17, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by MizMotown

Five Reasons You Don't Want Amazon In Your City....
https://www.alternet.org/economy/5-r...ters-your-city

This was interesting, but 4 out of the 5 reasons don't concern me, at least not for Detroit.

#1: "The bid process will cause your city to pull publicity stunts." This is a non issue. So what? Have a little fun.

#2: "The process is promoting a lack of transparency and community accountability." This is concerning. I didn't know Amazon was pushing states and municipalities to sign non-disclosure agreements that would prevent them from making public what incentives they are offering. Citizens have a right to know. Have the full details emerged what incentives Detroit is offering?

#3: "HQ2 could cause your rent to rise." I've faced this issue for more than half my life and have had to move out of numerous homes and neighborhoods as a result, so I can empathize. But Detroit has extremely low rent and real estate prices in general; there are more than ample affordable places to live. And it has an incredibly long way to go before it runs out of space. Detroit has the opposite problem. Increased demand would be good for neighborhoods. I'll paraphrase the words of someone else somewhere here on these forums: The problems of a growing economy are much better than the problems of a shrinking one.

#4: "HQ2 will slow down your commute." Sure, probably. But traffic in Detroit isn't bad. And it's all but certain that Amazon would not pick Detroit unless City County and State officials credibly assure them they can expect to see drastic improvement of mass transit options. The Detroit area desperately needs that. Winning HQ2 might be the catalyst for finally doing something about it. It would also lead to a more walkable downtown and the construction of many more residences close to work. In the end, commutes may well be improved. Especially for those who are on board for a more urban and transit-oriented lifestyle. Like me.

#5: "Seattle may be the exception, not the rule." Of course winning HQ2 won't make any city the next Seattle. But I can't imagine how the creation of so many good jobs and diversifying the economy would not be a great thing for Detroit.

What do you think?

**SammyS** · October-20-17, 12:09 PM

I'm ok with all but #2 but then again, I expect some non disclosure

**aj3647** · October-20-17, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by bust

#4: "HQ2 will slow down your commute." Sure, probably. But traffic in Detroit isn't bad. And it's all but certain that Amazon would not pick Detroit unless City County and State officials credibly assure them they can expect to see drastic improvement of mass transit options. The Detroit area desperately needs that. Winning HQ2 might be the catalyst for finally doing something about it.

City, county, and state officials not only are not on the same page when it comes to regional transit, they are actively pitted against one another. I remember someone earlier in this thread, when I brought up that Metro Detroit's total lack of a real regional mass transit system was a huge drawback, wanted to argue with me that if Amazon relocated here then all those public official would just snap their fingers and make regional mass transit magically happen.

We just tried to do this with an RTA millage vote in last year's election. What happened? Oakland and Macomb counties killed it, like they always do, with their repeated and consistent objection to funding regional mass transit.

We have an entrenched mindset in Oakland and Macomb that are vehemently against regional transit. Obviously regional mass transit is attractive to not just Amazon, but any big employer looking to relocate, so the fact that in 2017 our region STILL does not want to invest in it says volumes about what kinds of regional partners companies like Amazon will find in our various regional elected leaders.

The L Brooks Pattersons of the world are more afraid of making it easier for black people to come to Oakland County than they are at making our region more attractive to business investment. And I doubt Amazon is full of morons who are naïve enough to think that SE Michigan is going to do a 180 overnight and suddenly wholeheartedly embrace regional mass transit given our repeated failures to do so in the past.

**Onthe405** · October-20-17, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by emu steve

Here is another very well written article by land use and development writer at WaPo.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.b1b08e0308e3

. . .Charlotte and Indianapolis are bidding, but Amazon may want to know the effect of state laws there affecting the rights of gay or transgender employees."

As other posters have brought up: Bezos, like any other businessperson, will make his decision based on the most financially advantageous location for H2. "Social responsibility" issues will most likely factor in only if the choice is narrowed down to a tight competition between a few contenders.

On the outside chance that welcoming LGBT folks becomes a factor, Michigan is doomed. Both culturally & legally it's just about the most outwardly hostile state in the Midwest for gay folk.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/the-best-...-lgbt-equality

**emu steve** · October-20-17, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Onthe405

As other posters have brought up: Bezos, like any other businessperson, will make his decision based on the most financially advantageous location for H2. "Social responsibility" issues will most likely factor in only if the choice is narrowed down to a tight competition between a few contenders.

On the outside chance that welcoming LGBT folks becomes a factor, Michigan is doomed. Both culturally & legally it's just about the most outwardly hostile state in the Midwest for gay folk.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/the-best-...-lgbt-equality

My guess:

Social issues can DOOM a state, but can not advance a state.

If I was keeping score [[say on a 1 to 100 scale) I would not give California cities, D.C., etc a 10 point bonus because they are very liberal on social issues.

Many cities in very socially conservative cities or states could lose points, though.

One could ask if cities like Atlanta, Austin, etc. are hurt by the states in which they reside? Austin is a very liberal city in a very conservative state. Does that sit well with Bezos??

Kind of like a job interview, being well dressed doesn't help as much as being inappropriately dressed can doom a candidate.

**stasu1213** · October-20-17, 02:48 PM

I would rather have Amazon in Detroit instead of the former Northland site. Detroit has plenty of vacant land near downtown, Midtown, or near Eastside near the Eastern Market or Gratiot and Vermor area. I would rather Amazon build from ground up than to try to renovate a former mall that had been sitting for 5 years with major problems structurally. If malls are being looked at them let Amazon move into the former Macy's site at Eastland them get ride of the ghetto stores inside that mall. Eastland is a lot closer to downtown than Northland. It is also surrounded by five cities including Grosse Pointe, St Clair Shores, Eastpointe, and it's near I94. I would also suggest the defunked jail site to be used for Amazon

**Jason** · October-20-17, 02:55 PM

Don't worry I think Amazon is more likely to build a space colony for its HQ2 than it is to build on any of our mall sites.

**MikeyinBrooklyn** · October-20-17, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Onthe405

Both culturally & legally it's just about the most outwardly hostile state in the Midwest for gay folk.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/the-best-...-lgbt-equality

As a gay person who is a Michigander by birth and upbringing- and spent more than a decade in NYC before returning home- I can say I feel every bit as accepted and "safe" in Detroit and Michigan as I did in NYC. In fact, in New York people presumed [[incorrectly) based on their stereotypes that I: liked fashion & art, would be vocally liberal, and that I wouldn't like and know sports, study military history or go to Church. I have not experienced such biases here. I am as free legally and socially as I was in NY, and as much as anyone else here. People who aren't gay people living in Michigan telling me how bad Michigan must be for gay people are using their own biases and an erroneous set of metrics to come to their conclusions. But what do I know? Just what I see and hear every day of my life.

**iheartthed** · October-20-17, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

I am as free legally and socially as I was in NY, and as much as anyone else here.

That may be true now but wasn't as recently as two years ago. I'm not sure when you left New York, but if it was any time before June 2015 then your rights as a gay man were far more restricted in Michigan than they were in New York. The only reason same-sex marriage is now legal in Michigan is because the US Supreme Court determined these bans to be unconstitutional. New York legalized same-sex marriage four years before the Supreme Court ruling.

**corktownyuppie** · October-20-17, 11:47 PM

Inc. Magazine places us in their Top 5 next to Denver, Austin, DC, and Raleigh/Durham. I still don't think it's gonna happen. But, I think we will turn some heads along the way.

https://www.inc.com/christina-desmar...share=facebook

**313WX** · October-21-17, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by corktownyuppie

Inc. Magazine places us in their Top 5 next to Denver, Austin, DC, and Raleigh/Durham. I still don't think it's gonna happen. But, I think we will turn some heads along the way.

https://www.inc.com/christina-desmar...share=facebook

FWIW, that list was compiled by a real estate broker.

By that measure, Detroit is definitely a no-brainer due to the extremely cheap land.

**313WX** · October-21-17, 05:04 AM

Originally Posted by MikeyinBrooklyn

As a gay person who is a Michigander by birth and upbringing- and spent more than a decade in NYC before returning home- I can say I feel every bit as accepted and "safe" in Detroit and Michigan as I did in NYC. In fact, in New York people presumed [[incorrectly) based on their stereotypes that I: liked fashion & art, would be vocally liberal, and that I wouldn't like and know sports, study military history or go to Church. I have not experienced such biases here. I am as free legally and socially as I was in NY, and as much as anyone else here. People who aren't gay people living in Michigan telling me how bad Michigan must be for gay people are using their own biases and an erroneous set of metrics to come to their conclusions. But what do I know? Just what I see and hear every day of my life.

A couple of comments:

1. The link was about *Michigan*, not just Detroit. I'm sure homosexuals who have spent a significant amount of time anywhere within the state outside of Detroit's white collar suburbs [[I.E. Hazel Park, Warren, Taylor, etc.) or even within Detroit's African American community state would tend to disagree. Obviously, if you only mingle in a social circle that is relatively small and happy-go-lucky, then of course the perception you've created would become reality.

2. Did it occur to you that you may be doing the same with projecting your own biases and erroneous set of metrics? Perhaps you weren't as happy as you thought you would be in NY for other reasons beyond acceptance of your sexuality [[such as the fact that you tend to have a lot of conservative viewpoints for examples while living amongst a lot of people who didn't agree with you for example)?

I'm not saying NY was perfect, but as someone else mentioned, gay people did have a lot more rights granted to them by the government in NY [[and still do, in fact) than they do in Michigan.

**313WX** · October-21-17, 05:19 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

We have an entrenched mindset in Oakland and Macomb that are vehemently against regional transit.

Um, no.

50% of the voters in Oakland County voting for regional transit is hardly being "vehemently against" something. As far as Macomb County, it's a basket case that no one can figure out. They keep re-electing a mayor who thinks it's ok casually use the N-Word, mock mentally handicapped people and call black women gorillas, not to mention the son of a guy who was convicted for rape. I stopped trying to figure them out.

All of that said, let's stick with actual facts. The millage failed by only 18,129 votes. Meanwhile, over 37,000 people in Wayne County stayed at home compared to 2012 as it was an odd election year. I have no doubt if a decent candidate like Bernie Sanders was on the ballot, versus *TWO* candidates no one could stand, the RTA millage would have passed.

**313WX** · October-21-17, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by bust

This was interesting, but 4 out of the 5 reasons don't concern me, at least not for Detroit.

#3: "HQ2 could cause your rent to rise." I've faced this issue for more than half my life and have had to move out of numerous homes and neighborhoods as a result, so I can empathize. But Detroit has extremely low rent and real estate prices in general; there are more than ample affordable places to live. And it has an incredibly long way to go before it runs out of space. Detroit has the opposite problem. Increased demand would be good for neighborhoods. I'll paraphrase the words of someone else somewhere here on these forums: The problems of a growing economy are much better than the problems of a shrinking one.

Agreed on all points, especially #3.

If you're tired of widespread blight / devastation, crumbling roads, outdated infrastructure, continued brain drain, a big city that continues to lose political and social clout on a national level and provincialism, then you should really be pushing for a game changer like Amazon to occur.

**313WX** · October-21-17, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Exactly. There is no guarantee that Foxconn will even create the full 13,000 jobs they promised and there certainly is no guarantee in this economy that they will maintain 13,000 jobs there for the next 30-40 years. When you put up billions in incentives to lure these types of industries, you assume a massive risk. Wisconsin may end up losing hundreds of millions of dollars on that deal.

This is a false equivalency. Amazon isn't Foxconn, not even close.

**emu steve** · October-21-17, 05:47 AM

Atlanta better hope that Tom Price's wife isn't part of the 'Atlanta team.' She seems to better fit for the year 17 A.D. than 2017 A.D.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.c5006f342a62

**bust** · October-21-17, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Did it occur to you that you may be doing the same with projecting your own biases and erroneous set of metrics? Perhaps you weren't as happy as you thought you would be in NY for other reasons beyond acceptance of your sexuality [[such as the fact that you tend to have a lot of conservative viewpoints for examples while living amongst a lot of people who didn't agree with you for example)?

As someone who considers himself equal parts from Michigan and New York, that's precisely what I was thinking. And Mikey, I hope you don't take offense... I hesitated to write this, but since if I have one expertise it's procrastination...

It's not hard to find gay New Yorkers who don't like art and fashion, who like and know sports, or who go to church. Studying military history is uncommon [[I think everywhere), but it seems to me New Yorkers are very accepting of each other's interests, whatever they are. In fact, whatever they are, you're likely to find a community of like minded people in NYC if you try.

But it's statistically just about as unlikely to be gay and politically conservative as it is to be a New Yorker and politically conservative. Put those three things together and no wonder so many New Yorkers were surprised. That just doesn't happen often.

According to exit polls 77% or 78% of LGBT voters in the last presidential election chose Clinton and only 14% chose Trump, nationwide. The New York City LGBT electorate almost certainly voted even more drastically in favor of Clinton. 79% of New York City voters chose Clinton and only 19% chose Trump, regardless of sexual identity. In comparison, 48% of voters chose Clinton and 46% chose Trump nationwide.

Meanwhile it seems to me New Yorkers are more interested in politics than most people most other places. And as welcoming as they are of diverse interests, I don't doubt many are much less accepting of certain political viewpoints. Political conservatives are uncommon there except for in certain neighborhoods. And for better and for worse New Yorkers are known for letting you know what they think. I can see how that would be annoying if the political viewpoints so many New Yorkers have little patience to entertain are your own.

In any case, I'm happy to hear you've found a good fit in Michigan. It's encouraging you feel comfortable there as a gay person. I strongly believe a person's sexual identity should not prevent anyone from feeling comfortable anywhere they choose to belong. Your political views: they remain open for debate.

References:

2016 Election: Exit Polls
http://www.cnn.com/election/results/exit-polls

2016 Election: How we voted — by age, education, race and sexual orientation
http://college.usatoday.com/2016/11/...l-orientation/

2016 Election: Borough breakdown: How NYC voted for the president [[hint: Clinton didn't win them all)
http://abc7ny.com/politics/how-each-...-all)/1598306/

2016 Election: Hillary Clinton Officially Wins Popular Vote by Nearly 2.9 Million
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hilla...ry?id=44354341

How Every New York City Neighborhood Voted In The 2016 Presidential Election
https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/num...al-primary-nyc

**EGrant** · October-21-17, 11:10 PM

Can you not peddle your trash videos on this forum?

DetroitNightLights · October-21-17, 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by EGrant

Can you not peddle your trash videos on this forum?

Sorry EGrant. I thought the content on those videos was relevant, but I have removed them per your request.

I am not affiliated with those videos. I am sorry you thought they were trash. I took your word for it. I was just trying to have some fun.

Here is a blast from the past as an apology: Remember when Detroiters were just dreaming about Snagging the Quicken Loans HQ?

Thanks for showing up guys. We all know it was more than Dan Gilbert who got us here. Keep it up!

**313WX** · October-22-17, 06:16 AM

So the rumor mill is in full force already.

Apparently, the word going around is that Austin was pre-selected, but executives on the east coast raised concerns about the city [[I think everyone has a pretty good idea of what those concerns are). Thus, they decided to just turn the whole thing into The Hunger Games.

If any of this is true, that Bloomberg article from a couple weeks ago [[which said the executives want Boston but the employees want Austin) was correct.

**313WX** · October-22-17, 06:45 AM

Looking at some of the bids, New Hampshire completely trashed Boston in its proposal.

https://www.boston.com/news/business...ll-over-boston

“Choose Boston and next year when you leave your tiny $4,000-a-month apartment only to sit in 2 hours of traffic trying to make your way to an overburdened airport, you’ll be wishing you were in New Hampshire,”

**Hypestyles** · October-22-17, 07:31 AM

If Amazon does pick Detroit -- long shot, no shot, whatever-- I think they should buy the old train station on Michigan Avenue, and start rebuilding from there. The train tracks could be rebuilt and they would have some transportation options for their goods and personnel.