Amazon Looking for a new HQ - Detroit-Windsor Bid Rejected

**davewindsor** · September-12-17, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by warsaw7

I'm not your buddy guy. Your comment is stupid and absurd. The reason CNN did not include Detroit, is because Detroit will not get it. Detroit does not stand a chance due to high crime, poor education, lack of mass transit [[among many other lack of's).

I guess you then win the record for the stupidest response. Detroit was not included because they will not get it. That is such a dumb, circular answer. As I asked earlier, why wasn't metro Detroit included then? Detroit suburbs have some of the lowest crime rates and best education.

**aj3647** · September-12-17, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Why was Detroit taken out of the running?

Let's see, just for starters:
-No robust public transit system, either in the city or regionally
-Doesn't have a college educated population [[<14% of Detroit residents have at least a bachelor's degree)
-No major universities located within the city [[UoM is too far removed from Detroit, Wayne State probably isn't the educational powerhouse they are looking for)
- "potential to attract and retain strong technical talent", I'm sorry, but this just isn't Detroit. Nobody who's not from Michigan is going to say to themselves "you know where I really want to live? Detroit!" Just not happening. I'm not saying that's a fair assessment, I'm just saying that's the reality of the situation. Especially technical talent from places like California, Colorado, Washington, etc. They sure as shit do not want to pack their bags to move to Detroit.

I've read at least a dozen articles about this from a wide variety of news outlets and not one, not one, puts either Detroit or Grand Rapids in the running to win this new HQ. Not one.

But yeah, it's all "fake news", right? Have you considered the distinct possibility that maybe they're right and *you* are the one who is peddling a fantasy?

**iheartthed** · September-12-17, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Why was Detroit taken out of the running?

No explanation other than the article saying it's just a sentimental pick and therefore should be scratched off. They were quick to strike Chicago off the list because they said the "finances of Illinois are a wreck." I'll accept that. But, why Detroit? Nothing. Just prejudice. Have these ignorant journalists even set foot in Detroit lately? Are they even aware of what Metro Detroit has to offer? I guess Metro Detroit, let alone Detroit proper, doesn't have any "quality of life" like Denver.

The reason they give for excluding Detroit is the same reason they removed Chicago: sluggish job market. One of the criteria in the RFP is that the city have an expanding labor market. Detroit's has obviously been sluggish to contracting for a bit of time.

That said, I think the city still has a good shot at making their case. The RFP lists so many points that it will be impossible to find a city that fits every point. So they must value some criteria more than others...

**SammyS** · September-12-17, 11:43 AM

^^
Just like every media outlet got the presidency wrong, I don't have much confidence they'll get this one right.

**iheartthed** · September-12-17, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by SammyS

^^
Just like every media outlet got the presidency wrong, I don't have much confidence they'll get this one right.

Yeah, these are all opinions. My gut still says Detroit is in the top 5, but I would say Philly and Toronto have an edge. Next to Philadelphia, Detroit has been mentioned most consistently in all of the speculation articles I've read which makes me think there is a real shot.

**davewindsor** · September-12-17, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

Walkable and transit.

Transit is a negotiation. Q Line was a negotiation. You add 50,000 employees to the tax rolls, then there's more money to fund more buses, street cars or whatever mode of public transportation that's needed. Detroit used to have street cars all over the city when it had a lot more jobs with people paying more taxes. If Bezos makes a commitment conditional upon the government funding more public transportation in Detroit or any suburb in metro, it will be done. Why not?

**warsaw7** · September-12-17, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

I guess you then win the record for the stupidest response. Detroit was not included because they will not get it. That is such a dumb, circular answer. As I asked earlier, why wasn't metro Detroit included then? Detroit suburbs have some of the lowest crime rates and best education.

Touché! I probably should have proofed that before sending it out. I meant to say CNN did not include Detroit due to the aforementioned reasons above [[lack of transit, high crime, poor education, etc) and therefore Detroit is not a front-runner for Amazon HQ2 in their opinion.

**davewindsor** · September-12-17, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Let's see, just for starters:
-No robust public transit system, either in the city or regionally
-Doesn't have a college educated population [[<14% of Detroit residents have at least a bachelor's degree)

As the tax rolls increase from more employees, there's more money to fund a better transit system.
Did you know that most Amazon employees at their HQ1 do not live in Seattle, but commute from the suburbs?

Originally Posted by aj3647

-No major universities located within the city [[UoM is too far removed from Detroit, Wayne State probably isn't the educational powerhouse they are looking for)

UoM can set up a satellite campus in downtown. Amazon can move their HQ2 to Ann Arbor. We're talking about what, a 45 minute drive. It's not that far. Where's the proof that Wayne State isn't an educational powerhouse and has no talent? Have you walked through Wayne State's campus? There's some serious cash that's been spent on that university.

Originally Posted by aj3647

- "potential to attract and retain strong technical talent", I'm sorry, but this just isn't Detroit. Nobody who's not from Michigan is going to say to themselves "you know where I really want to live? Detroit!" Just not happening. I'm not saying that's a fair assessment, I'm just saying that's the reality of the situation. Especially technical talent from places like California, Colorado, Washington, etc. They sure as shit do not want to pack their bags to move to Detroit.

People go where the money is at. Human greed. It's a very simple human motivation. They're not all Marxists. If you dangle $100K plus salaries with a low cost of living, they'll come in droves. A lot of graduates have large student loans to pay down instead of trying to break even paying San Fransisco Bay area rents. Obviously, if a company doesn't pay enough or there's a better paying job elsewhere, you're not going to retain people. There's also a lot of "quality of life" draws here already from all the millionaires that have already been living in the suburbs for a long time. Metro has over 4 million people. You think there's not enough "quality of life" issues?? Come on. BTW-I've met a lot of IT, computer guys who moved from Toronto to Windsor or Detroit just to work in metro Detroit getting a six figure income. I repeat, from Toronto of all places.

Just because you're struggling with a low paying job doesn't mean a person offered a $100K a year plus job will see it the same way. They could also afford a car at that rate and don't need public transportation. If you're unsuccessful in metro or life in general, you need to ask yourself what are you doing that's causing it to continue happening because there are a lot of wealthy people living in metro Detroit--just drive to Rochester Hills or anywhere in the suburbs and look at all the expensive mansions. Even Dan Gilbert commutes to his mansion in the suburbs.

Originally Posted by aj3647

I've read at least a dozen articles about this from a wide variety of news outlets and not one, not one, puts either Detroit or Grand Rapids in the running to win this new HQ. Not one.

But yeah, it's all "fake news", right? Have you considered the distinct possibility that maybe they're right and *you* are the one who is peddling a fantasy?

Who cares what the "Fake News" media outlets have to peddle? Why have over 4 million people stayed in metro? Why are there so many millionaires in metro? Why does the Somerset Mall Collection still thrive selling $1,000 dress shirts? Metro isn't a fantasy. It's reality for a lot of people living here. A lot of people don't live like you. It's ignorant, tunnel vision thinking.

**Bham1982** · September-12-17, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by SammyS

^^
Just like every media outlet got the presidency wrong, I don't have much confidence they'll get this one right.

What media outlet "got the presidency wrong"? Name one.

You appear to have two problems: you're unable to distinguish between media and polling [[or put differently, news and science) and you're unaware of the actual polling, which accurately predicted the election results within 2% [[which is pretty good for historical standards).

Honestly, is it any surprise this country is so screwed? We have tons of angry, uneducated, fact averse, nuance-challenged voters.

**Bham1982** · September-12-17, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Who cares what the "Fake News" media outlets have to peddle? Why have over 4 million people stayed in metro? Why are there so many millionaires in metro? Why does the Somerset Mall Collection still thrive selling $1,000 dress shirts? Metro isn't a fantasy. It's reality for a lot of people living here. A lot of people don't live like you. It's ignorant, tunnel vision thinking.

You sure you aren't a Michigan voter? With the above "logic", you would fit in just beautifully in our Idiocracy.

**aj3647** · September-12-17, 02:00 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Transit is a negotiation. Q Line was a negotiation. You add 50,000 employees to the tax rolls, then there's more money to fund more buses, street cars or whatever mode of public transportation that's needed. Detroit used to have street cars all over the city when it had a lot more jobs with people paying more taxes. If Bezos makes a commitment conditional upon the government funding more public transportation in Detroit or any suburb in metro, it will be done. Why not?

Regional transit is a "negotiation?" That kind of thing doesn't spring up overnight, it takes years before it ever sees fruition. Do you think Amazon is going to locate their headquarters here and THEN wait a decade for us to build a truly effective regional transit system [[at a cost of billions of dollars)? Or, just pick a city that already has that in place?

Also good luck getting all of the different regional government players to agree to a regional transit system. Oakland County will just say "no thanks" as they always do.

**aj3647** · September-12-17, 02:04 PM

I tell you what Davewindsor, if Amazon picks Detroit, feel free to come back here and call out all the naysayers and gloat. But if Amazon picks a location in another state, you going to eat that humble pie and admit that you were full of it? Probably not. You'll probably just blame some Deep State conspiracy for why Amazon didn't locate its HQ here. Hillary's emails made Jeff Bezos pick Denver over the far more qualified Detroit.

**313WX** · September-12-17, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The reason they give for excluding Detroit is the same reason they removed Chicago: sluggish job market. One of the criteria in the RFP is that the city have an expanding labor market. Detroit's has obviously been sluggish to contracting for a bit of time.

There's a difference between the labor market and job market, something CNN and whoever else in the media obviously doesn't get.

There are thousands of students fleeing Michigan every year from our Universities [[the tech companies and defense contractors love to recruit from MSU and U of M), since the Auto Industry has engaged in relatively little capital investment and is on the verge of a downturn. Yet, I'm sure they would stay if there ere actually jobs *IN* Michigan. Landing Amazon would be a huge start in accomplishing that.

**iheartthed** · September-12-17, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

There's a difference between the labor market and job market, something CNN and whoever else in the media obviously doesn't get.

There are thousands of students fleeing Michigan every year from our Universities [[the tech companies and defense contractors love to recruit from MSU and U of M), since the Auto Industry has engaged in relatively little capital investment and is on the verge of a downturn. Yet, I'm sure they would stay if there ere actually jobs *IN* Michigan. Landing Amazon would be a huge start in accomplishing that.

They are not the same but closely related. It was also a point that Amazon stated in the RFP, so it's not an arbitrary thing that NYT made up themselves.

I think Detroit is large enough that labor market won't be an issue, whether it is declining or not. And Chicago is surely large enough where it would be a moot point. But Amazon moving to a major metro like Detroit or Chicago isn't the same as putting the strain on a smaller metro with a stagnant or declining labor force [[such as Cleveland or Pittsburgh, which are both roughly half the size of Detroit).

**313WX** · September-12-17, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Let's see, just for starters:
-No robust public transit system, either in the city or regionally
-Doesn't have a college educated population [[<14% of Detroit residents have at least a bachelor's degree)
-No major universities located within the city [[UoM is too far removed from Detroit, Wayne State probably isn't the educational powerhouse they are looking for)
- "potential to attract and retain strong technical talent", I'm sorry, but this just isn't Detroit. Nobody who's not from Michigan is going to say to themselves "you know where I really want to live? Detroit!" Just not happening. I'm not saying that's a fair assessment, I'm just saying that's the reality of the situation. Especially technical talent from places like California, Colorado, Washington, etc. They sure as shit do not want to pack their bags to move to Detroit.

I've read at least a dozen articles about this from a wide variety of news outlets and not one, not one, puts either Detroit or Grand Rapids in the running to win this new HQ. Not one.

But yeah, it's all "fake news", right? Have you considered the distinct possibility that maybe they're right and *you* are the one who is peddling a fantasy?

What a bunch of crap.

-No robust public transit system, either in the city or regionally

I'll give you that. But to also be fair, Detroit has arguably the best road system in the country, which mitigates the need for transit to an extent. The road system in Seattle sucks. Furthermore, Seattle's transit system was mediocre at best before Amazon blossomed, so transit may not even be a dealbreaker.

-Doesn't have a college educated population [[<14% of Detroit residents have at least a bachelor's degree)

First off, the RFQ said "metropolitan area" Detroit's metro area consists of nearly 6 million people if you include Ann Arbor, Flint and SW Ontario [[or basically define the region in just as large of an area as Metro Atlanta) and Detroit proper makes up a very small portion of that number. Furthermore, *Metro* Detroit is home to one of the largest concentration of STEM grads in the country, thanks to GM / Ford / Chrysler and their suppliers.

Second, Michigan is donating thousands of college-educated kids to other states yearly [[especially Georgia and Texas). They would stay if they could actually find good-paying, stable work. Unfortunately, that's like finding a unicorn in this state, and people seemed hell bent on keeping it that way if your response is any sign.

No major universities located within the city [[UoM is too far removed from Detroit, Wayne State probably isn't the educational powerhouse they are looking for)

Who cares if U of M isn't in the city proper. MIT is also not in Boston proper, yet they're not hurting because of it.

Furthermore, Ann Arbor is only a 45 minute drive from downtown. In a city like Atlanta, they consider that the suburbs [[I.E. Cartersville, Newnan, etc.) and a 45 minute commute daily is perfectly normal.

- "potential to attract and retain strong technical talent", I'm sorry, but this just isn't Detroit. Nobody who's not from Michigan is going to say to themselves "you know where I really want to live? Detroit!" Just not happening. I'm not saying that's a fair assessment, I'm just saying that's the reality of the situation. Especially technical talent from places like California, Colorado, Washington, etc. They sure as shit do not want to pack their bags to move to Detroit.

Funny, Detroit had no problem attracting "technical" talent when the automakers were dominating the economy back in the 40s - 70s. The only variable that's changed is that they're no longer hiring in droves. I guarantee you if Detroit started producing jobs like Georgia, Texas, etc., the flood gates would open back up with transplants.

**Bham1982** · September-12-17, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Who cares if U of M isn't in the city proper. MIT is also not in Boston proper, yet they're not hurting because of it.

MIT is easy walking distance from downtown Boston. U-M is a 40 mile drive west from downtown Detroit. Not remotely comparable.

Hell, MIT is closer to Boston's core than Wayne State is to Detroit's core.

**313WX** · September-12-17, 04:23 PM

I've read at least a dozen articles about this from a wide variety of news outlets and not one, not one, puts either Detroit or Grand Rapids in the running to win this new HQ. Not one.

I suggest you read harder.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/09/07/amazon-plans-second-headquarters-dubbed-hq-2/640861001/

https://venturebeat.com/2017/09/07/5-u-s-cities-amazon-should-consider-for-hq2/

https://storify.com/richard_florida/...-on-amazon-hq2

http://www.xconomy.com/seattle/2017/...headquarters/#

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.6ecd31fe9d9f

**313WX** · September-12-17, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

U-M is a 40 mile drive west from downtown Detroit.

Again, who cares.

In the sunbelt cities that everyone's crazy about, 40 mile drives / commutes between destinations is perfectly routine. Why should Detroit be held to a different standard?

**dtowncitylover** · September-12-17, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

U-M is a 40 mile drive west from downtown Detroit.

Yeah, seriously. San Fran to San Jose is 48 miles and that's the heart of Silicon Valley. If we had a regional rail line, it wouldn't be as daunting as some think it is.

Obviously, one wouldn't commute to either end and back but everything is there for one to work in the high tech industry.

**douglasm** · September-12-17, 05:22 PM

Someone asked when Amazon will made a selection. I believe it's been reported out here that the choice will be next spring.

**313WX** · September-12-17, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by douglasm

Someone asked when Amazon will made a selection. I believe it's been reported out here that the choice will be next spring.

I heard early 2018 as well [[which I mentioned earlier).

**SammyS** · September-12-17, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

What media outlet "got the presidency wrong"? Name one.

You appear to have two problems: you're unable to distinguish between media and polling [[or put differently, news and science) and you're unaware of the actual polling, which accurately predicted the election results within 2% [[which is pretty good for historical standards).

Honestly, is it any surprise this country is so screwed? We have tons of angry, uneducated, fact averse, nuance-challenged voters.

key word here, landslide. WRONG!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEkG9seHJco

**313WX** · September-12-17, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by SammyS

key word here, landslide. WRONG!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEkG9seHJco

Don't forget the NY Times forecast that gave Hillary a 94% chance of winning well into the afternoon hours on the day of the election. I still laugh at that one.

**davewindsor** · September-12-17, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

You sure you aren't a Michigan voter? With the above "logic", you would fit in just beautifully in our Idiocracy.

If Michigan is an idiocracy, why do you choose to live in it and be part of the discussion?

**davewindsor** · September-12-17, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Regional transit is a "negotiation?" That kind of thing doesn't spring up overnight, it takes years before it ever sees fruition. Do you think Amazon is going to locate their headquarters here and THEN wait a decade for us to build a truly effective regional transit system [[at a cost of billions of dollars)? Or, just pick a city that already has that in place?

Also good luck getting all of the different regional government players to agree to a regional transit system. Oakland County will just say "no thanks" as they always do.

Would it take a decade? I don't think so. Detroit is much better off than it was a decade ago. It doesn't have the suffocating debt it did a decade ago. I remember walking through downtown a decade ago and then up to midtown seeing all those boarded up buildings. It was rough. Ten years ago, I couldn't imagine seeing the Book Cadillac meeting a fate other than the Statler for the condition it was in.

In the momentum that Detroit's in now with the current financial shape of the city and a Mayor that's a proven deal maker, he could do it for Amazon in a lot less time if it was a condition of Amazon moving down here.

I remember reading that the public spent 60% of the cost of the new $750m Red Wing's arena when the old arena was only a couple decades old, and they're not willing to add funding for a better transportation system in return for 50,000 new jobs plus construction jobs added to the tax rolls? Come on, get real.