Windsor's Little Italy

[Bham1982]

Bham, I disagree 100%. When is the last time you have been to Toronto? In my book, it compares very favorably to Chicago.

What, from a tourist perspective, do you find particularly appealing about Toronto?

I can't think of anything where Toronto would be a more appealing tourist destination than Chicago.

And I'm not a big Chicago fan, at all. Think it's overrated. But Chicago clearly has better museums, culture, shopping, waterfront, architecture, food scene, etc.

[GMan]

Yes.

But I it has been put that US customs may 'hassle' you when you return.

EDL is also something your not that likely to get, if you can't afford or aren't interested in a passport. Its still extra money, time, hassle vs status quo. Maybe a tad less than w/a passport.....

They also don't work at airports as I understand it, only at land crossings [[obviously that covers Windsor, but it does limit its advantages to the holder)

Used to go across the river via boat every weekend to eateries in the Amherstburg area. All that was required back then was that you called in via phone at port of entry and gave MC number [[boat registration), name of captain and number in party. No requirement when re-entering US.
Crossing by car was relatively easy also. What is citizenship, what is purpose of visit to Canada any weapons on person or in car? Returning to the States was the reverse of this.

Sometime in the early 90's the return to the US by car was becoming a hassle as questions got down to what street do you live on? [[ you just saw my license, ) what do you do for a living? Why did you go to Canada??? [[ To have fun and drink beer and the Ballet of course! )

After 9/11 of course it went up a notch with passports required, which I have but don't make a habit of carrying around.)
Lot's of choices to spend money and see things in the USA, so outside of fishing trips and nostalgia trips and the occasional event like the wedding of a co-worker, why go?

[Canadian Visitor]

Canada has significantly lower household incomes than in the U.S., alongside much higher taxes, housing and auto costs. I seriously doubt average Canadian families are dropping 5-10k every year to visit Europe.

Where do you get this stuff?

According to the US Census Bureau median household income is just over $51,000 USD

In Canada, in USD, the number is $63,000 and change.

Yes, our taxes are higher, though not that much, and we don't pay for health insurance in a significant way.

Also families w/children where household income is under $160,000 receive transfers, which for the lowest income earners are up to $6,400 per year per child. [[effectively lowering their income tax below zero)

Further, before you say 'sales tax', that too is rebated, with someone earning 30k'ish [[40 with kids) getting essentially 100% of their sales tax back [[ in the range of a $600-$1,200 rebate).

Then we could look at median net wealth instead. Canada $96,000USD; U.S. $44,000 USD

Your perceptions are quite skewed.

While you're busy not coming to Toronto, who do you think shops at 3 Nordstroms, 2 Saks, 3 Holt Renfrews [[Cdn luxury dept store) etc?

It's anecdotal, but I have very rarely encountered Canadians in Europe but Americans are absolutely everywhere.

That is anecdotal. There are 9x more Americans than Canadians, so I would expect more Americans to be in most places in the world. But I don't find the disparity to be as wide as the population difference would suggest.

Toronto isn't a big tourist city, however. Why would Americans come in big numbers to Toronto?

We are the #4 City for overnight, international visits in North America, Behind NYC, LA and Miami.

4.5M overnight visitors vs 2M for Chicago
So someone must find something appealing.

https://newsroom.mastercard.com/wp-c...dex-Report.pdf

What would be the specific appeal? CN Tower? It's a largely generic city.

Better for someone else to answer this, in so far as I live here.

But, I don't think generic is a good word at all.

In the core, its a wall of skyscrapers unlike anything on this continent outside of Manhattan.

Just beyond, the largest collection of Victorian Brick homes in North America.

I could list off the tourist stuff, but really this is getting silly.

From a Michigan perspective, Chicago is much more appealing [[again, speaking strictly tourist stuff)

I'll let you speak for yourself. I've been to Chicago and could say many wonderful things about it.

However, I would peg its dining scene as well behind Toronto's.

[Bham1982]

According to the US Census Bureau median household income is just over $51,000 USD

In Canada, in USD, the number is $63,000 and change.

Neither number is correct. U.S. median household income is 59k as of May 2017.

https://www.advisorperspectives.com/...il-last-report

Canadian FAMILY income is 63k, which equates to about 50k U.S. Family income has nothing to do with household income, and will be significantly higher. Family income in U.S. will be at least 70k or so.

Yes, our taxes are higher, though not that much, and we don't pay for health insurance in a significant way.

Americans don't pay for health insurance either, obviously. Their employer pays the vast bulk.

While you're busy not coming to Toronto, who do you think shops at 3 Nordstroms, 2 Saks, 3 Holt Renfrews [[Cdn luxury dept store) etc?

I go to your fine city a couple times a year, on work, and am not sure what you're arguing with this silly non-sequitur. Toronto residents are obviously shopping in Toronto stores. just like Detroiters shop in Detroit stores. There are 7 million people in the Toronto area; obviously many can afford nicer brands.

The luxury brands you note [[Nordstrom and Saks) just arrived, largely because the U.S. retail scene is saturated. Holt's is a small chain with a minor footprint. Before Nordstrom and Saks arrived you would see many Canadians shopping the Detroit locations.

And the Saks Canadian expansion is sorta a contraction/rebranding of Hudsons Bay [[they downsized in Toronto and Saks, now under same ownership, took the space).

But, I don't think generic is a good word at all.

In the core, its a wall of skyscrapers unlike anything on this continent outside of Manhattan.

Tourists typically visit cities to see something utterly generic and banal like "a wall of skyscrapers"? LOL. Dallas, Frankfurt, Shenzhen and Rotterdam are on everyone's to-do list, obviously.

And Chicago has taller and more impressive skyscrapers than Toronto. It isn't even close.

Just beyond, the largest collection of Victorian Brick homes in North America.

Yes, quite obviously, after seeing the "wall of skyscrapers", clearly visitors are off to see the "brick homes". Is this before or after the Shoe Museum and the Swiss Chalet?

Let's be real, Toronto is a nice city, but is not a tourist-focused city, and doesn't have iconic attractions. It looks and feels totally generic, which is why it's such a great stand-in for other cities in the movies. It could plausibly be anywhere.

[MrMichigan]

Bham, you need to relax with the broad, generic statements. I respect your opinion but that doesn't mean you're correct.

[Canadian Visitor]

Bham,

I don't find your source to be any more valid than mine on income, and you didn't find an alternate one on assets.

***

As for Toronto, that wasn't even the subject of this thread.......which was Windsor, which got me asking about passport rates, so this really is an OT tangent.

I'm not sure I believe you've been to Toronto or Chicago....you like to sound worldly and informed but say so many things I know not to be true, I have my serious doubts.

If you don't care for Toronto that's fine. My feelings aren't hurt.

A comparison to Chicago can equally be one of personal preference.

Though not merely for day to day living, I happen to prefer my own city, as I imagine many natives of Chicago would prefer theirs.

Your statements on towers are dubious, but I won't bother with a debate.

Nor will I get into writing an endless tourist brochure for my own City, though I will point out w/have more live theatre than either Chicago or LA, and the 2nd most acclaimed Ballet in North America.

Point being not that Toronto is everyone's cup of tea, nor the best this or that, merely than I find your description ill-informed and suggestive of someone who hasn't visited or has no concept of nightlife or the arts. I'll leave it to you admit to the which of the above is truer.

[Bham1982]

Bham, you need to relax with the broad, generic statements. I respect your opinion but that doesn't mean you're correct.

What, specifically, do you dispute?

You've, twice now, indicated I'm "wrong", without offering specific critiques.

Again, tell us why Toronto would [[or should) be a more obvious tourist destination to Michiganders than Chicago.

[MrMichigan]

What, specifically, do you dispute?

You've, twice now, indicated I'm "wrong", without offering specific critiques.

Again, tell us why Toronto would [[or should) be a more obvious tourist destination to Michiganders than Chicago.

Toronto isn't a big tourist city, however. Why would Americans come in big numbers to Toronto? What would be the specific appeal? CN Tower? It's a largely generic city.

That is an opinion Bham. I'm not saying one should be more popular, Chicago vs Toronto depends on the person. But to call a city generic and a forgettable tourist city when it is obviously not seems simple-minded.

[Bham1982]

Bham,

I don't find your source to be any more valid than mine on income, and you didn't find an alternate one on assets.

You posted FAMILY income numbers and are trying to compare to household income. So you offered no comparison. Apples and oranges.

Yes, Canadians should, on paper, have significantly higher assets, obviously, because Canadian housing costs around twice that of U.S. housing, apples to apples. Household assets are a proxy for relative housing costs.

It isn't clear to me what this has to do with income or visiting habits. You can't monetize the relative differences in home worth unless you move to another country.

I'm not sure I believe you've been to Toronto or Chicago....you like to sound worldly and informed but say so many things I know not to be true, I have my serious doubts.

You're being silly and homerish now.

I've lived in Chicago and know Toronto extremely well. Both cities are perfectly fine but I think very few people would argue that Toronto is a tourist-focused city full of globally renowned attractions.

If you don't care for Toronto that's fine. My feelings aren't hurt.

I never said "I don't care for Toronto". It does many things very well, in fact, much better than Chicago. It's, overall, probably a more livable city. It just isn't a tourist-focused city.

And I've been quite clear on DYes that I think Chicago is very overrated by Michiganders, who have never been in a healthy big city urban environment. Toronto isn't overrated, it just isn't front-and-center south of the border.

[dtowncitylover]

What, specifically, do you dispute?

You've, twice now, indicated I'm "wrong", without offering specific critiques.

Again, tell us why Toronto would [[or should) be a more obvious tourist destination to Michiganders than Chicago.

Because Toronto is better. The people are nicer, the city is cleaner, I've never had a bad time in Toronto. Kensington Square, Chinatown, Yonge & Dundas, Casa Loma, the waterfront, Hockey Hall of Fame, the streetcars, Queen St. West, the houses/mansions of Rosedale, the beer scene, the food scene, people watching [[Canadians can be weird lol). Also, the prices in Canada are cheaper right now. Going to Roots at Devonshire [[besides paying for the tunnel) is cheaper than going to Roots in Birmingham.

[dtowncitylover]

Toronto isn't overrated, it just isn't front-and-center south of the border.

Yes it is, especially for those along the border. It is a heavily tourist visited city because when one wants to go to Canada, they're usually flying into Toronto. And because it's part of the Commonwealth we get tons of British, Aussies, Kiwis, Africans, etc visiting and working on visas. When people go to Canada, they almost always go to Toronto. It's like visiting the US from China, Australia, or even Europe and not going to NYC. It wouldn't make sense!

[Richard]

Again, tell us why Toronto would [[or should) be a more obvious tourist destination to Michiganders than Chicago.

I agree,if we have to ask that question,somebody is not doing their job.

CV says it is because Americans have a low passport rate,nothing to do with it the crux of the matter and he/she is trying to get to the bottom of what the Canadian tourist bureau cannot with all of their millions,as the link I posted clearly showed.

To me on the tourism aspect and more so Detroit,I believe that is a massive untapped family tailored vacation.

Auto history,Motown,museums,architecture etc.

It is or can be a destination that would fill up a weeks vacation time slot.

It has something to offer wide band verses a single attraction.

As a tourist I would also need to eat,and it would be also nice to know of places to eat that serve real Polish,German,Italian,Chinese and even soul food because they are the ones that combined together to build the city and it would be kinda cool to integrate and expirence what they also ate.All part of the tourist expirence.

It also kinda follows the op topic,which is really also saying that Windsorites are discovering thier own city without the American tourist aspect. Nothing wrong with that either.

[EastsideAl]

Sometime in the early 90's the return to the US by car was becoming a hassle as questions got down to what street do you live on? [[ you just saw my license, ) what do you do for a living? Why did you go to Canada??? [[ To have fun and drink beer and the Ballet of course! )

After 9/11 of course it went up a notch with passports required, which I have but don't make a habit of carrying around.)

As someone who crosses the border very regularly, this is the key point. It's really our Customs that's the main problem, not Canada's. U.S. Customs agents just seem to give everyone a hard time and far too often just act like hostile jerks, even to their own citizens. I can't tell you how often I've gotten the 20 questions routine, even when it was clear that they were just going to let me in anyway.

There is also the matter of the attitude you note, the "why DID you go to Canada?" questions that seem to presume that anyone who leaves the U.S. is up to something nefarious. Part of the problem here is that a lot of the Customs agents at our local crossings aren't from around here and don't seem to understand that people in this area have been crossing that border for all kinds of reasons [[work, shopping, gambling, partying, eating, the "ballet", or just looking around) for most of their lives. So they seem to waste a lot of time on just the sort of petty faux-macho intimidation that chases people away.

Just a few weeks ago at the tunnel I got a guy who, after noting that my passport had been used at that crossing several times, started to quiz me on every instance I had crossed in the last couple of years, and expressed shock that I actually [[horrors) admitted to having relatives in Canada. He also didn't seem to believe that I, a white middle-aged guy, lived in the actual City of Detroit, and then asked me several times how much cash I had on me [[so I pulled it out of my pocket and counted it for him, which didn't make him happy). Of course, he may have become a bit more pissed off because his obvious southern hillbilly hick accent made it difficult for me not to laugh at him. But he held up everyone for about 10 minutes or more for this before, inevitably, he let me pass.

If you have no compelling reason to go to Canada, who the hell needs a hassle like that? Or even the possibility of it. Just to go get some Italian food, or whatever. In the end this sort of pointlessly annoying foolishness is costing all of us, on both sides of our supposedly "peaceful" border.

[Richard]

^ I agree that it is a systematic problem in need of a solution,that is also the number one complaint I get from international travelers,even ones that travel regularly.

Some airports they zip through and others are a massive headache for the reasons you stated,some agents act like hostile jerks.

I can go from Fla to the Bahamas in my boat,with my drivers lincese and birth certificate,they have no problem with it.

Coming back that eye in the sky tags me and they can actually confiscate my boat for entering the U.S. with no passport.Or not even allow me reentry back into U.S. Waters.I am an American.

Then there are others who just safety check and make shure no people smuggling and say have a nice day.It is a crap shoot of who you get and there is really no reason for it,they have everybody already in the system.

[Embee]

I'm Canadian and have had very few problems with U.S. customs agents but I've heard many situations of Americans being hassled by their own customs agents which seems rather absurd. Coming back to Canada, the Canadian agents only seem to care about how much money you spent and then wave you through anyway.

[GMan]

I'm Canadian and have had very few problems with U.S. customs agents but I've heard many situations of Americans being hassled by their own customs agents which seems rather absurd. Coming back to Canada, the Canadian agents only seem to care about how much money you spent and then wave you through anyway.

There does seem to be more consistency in the questioning by Canadian agents. They come off as less standoffish and I wonder if their approach gets better results by engaging the occupants as visitors and not as criminals.
Back in my younger days when celebrating a friends 19th birthday, a group of us went over to Canada to buy him his "first" drink. While waiting in line to go through Canadian customs, another friend suggested we tell a concocted story of why we were visiting. When it was our turn I pulled up to the window and a lovely young agent asked me the purpose of our visit. I said to bar hop and take in the ballet! She smiled and proceeded with the standard questions of citizenship and if we were bringing any contraband into the country. As we were leaving I asked her what time her shift was over? She smiled politely, said she was working all night, told us to have a good time and not to drink too much. The friend that wanted me to tell a concocted reason for going, admonished me for my honesty and tried to convince me through the rest of the night that since she ran our license plate, the O.P.P. would be looking for us on our return!
I wouldn't be that brash nowadays.

[EastsideAl]

I'm Canadian and have had very few problems with U.S. customs agents but I've heard many situations of Americans being hassled by their own customs agents which seems rather absurd. Coming back to Canada, the Canadian agents only seem to care about how much money you spent and then wave you through anyway.

The Canadian agents always, ALWAYS, ask me about guns and alcohol. Sometimes twice on the gun question [[I guess I look like a firearms guy, even though I most definitely am not). Otherwise they are generally fine and not a problem at all.

Although just recently I have a couple of times had them make note of the number of times I've crossed at different locations [[I have family in NY, so often cross around Niagara), and the amounts of time I've spent in Canada, and pointedly ask me about my immigration status in Canada. Odd. Maybe a post-Trump thing?