State of Emergency/White Nationalist Protest in Virginia

[JBMcB]

Former neo-nazis and white supremacists on what changed their mind. Hint: It wasn't violence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhjgKXtEhDo

tl;dr version: The neo-nazis *like* violence, and were encouraged, and felt vindicated, when attacked. When confronted with understanding and reason - they started to *think*

[Richard]

Former neo-nazis and white supremacists on what changed their mind. Hint: It wasn't violence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhjgKXtEhDo

tl;dr version: The neo-nazis *like* violence, and were encouraged, and felt vindicated, when attacked. When confronted with understanding and reason - they started to *think*

Do you agree with the commentary?

It becomes common sense,if somebody walks up to you aggressively,you are going to take an aggressive stance.

It goes also back to the whole statue thing,a democratic country but nobody set both sides down for a solution,it is one side saying tear them down and the other saying no.

[Meddle]

...

Search the news. DHS made the announcement yesterday.

Didn't make it into the tabloids maybe.

[Richard]

Search the news. DHS made the announcement yesterday.

Didn't make it into the tabloids maybe.

What are you going on about?

A petition was formed Yes or no

The petition received in excess of the required votes to move forward . Yes or no

What does the tabloids have to do with it ?

Others listed the timeline of completed petition to approval or disapproval of thirty to sixty days. So DHS immediately approved it.

[Canadian Visitor]

^ you still have not answered the question.

Do you support fighting fascism by useing fascism?

That is a ridiculous proposition. You don't even know how to define fascism.

Let me help, from Wikipedia.

Some scholars consider fascism to be right-wing because of its social conservatism and its authoritarian means of opposing egalitarianism.^[45][46] Roderick Stackelberg places fascism—including Nazism, which he says is "a radical variant of fascism"—on the political right, explaining that, "The more a person deems absolute equality among all people to be a desirable condition, the further left he or she will be on the ideological spectrum. The more a person considers inequality to be unavoidable or even desirable, the further to the right he or she will be"

Does that sound like Antifa to you? Socially conservative? Pro-inequality?

Right.

Antifa may have some members who are violent; and may employ some confrontational protest tactics. You [[or I) may disagree with these for any number of reasons, that does not make them fascist. Really. Again, Facts please.

***

To get at what you were trying to ask, but mangled so badly; no I don't support confrontational protests in the vast majority of cases. I do think it tends to be counter productive in shaping public opinion.

I think peaceful counter-protests are fine; though largely ineffective at persuading folks to change their minds.

I think efforts are typically better focused on research to identify why people are either misinformed, disaffected or both and to try to reach them through communication channels they would wish to use; and explain a different world view, in respectful terms in a way that's understandable to them.

Though I freely confess, people like you do make it easier to understand why people become exasperated and just give up on persuading people who are being irrational hatemongers and instead resort to counter-threat.

Not legal, not advisable, but too understandable.

I get it,in your world the only people that should have a opinion needs to be highly educated or step aside.You are a supporter of a 2 class society,but that is okay because in America you can be what you want to be.

Not remotely true; I favour an egalitarian model in which everyone is well educated. I simply oppose anyone exercising their right to be stupid.

[Richard]

That is a ridiculous proposition. You don't even know how to define fascism.

Let me help, from Wikipedia.

Some scholars consider fascism to be right-wing because of its social conservatism and its authoritarian means of opposing egalitarianism.^[45][46] Roderick Stackelberg places fascism—including Nazism, which he says is "a radical variant of fascism"—on the political right, explaining that, "The more a person deems absolute equality among all people to be a desirable condition, the further left he or she will be on the ideological spectrum. The more a person considers inequality to be unavoidable or even desirable, the further to the right he or she will be"

Does that sound like Antifa to you? Socially conservative? Pro-inequality?

Right.

Antifa may have some members who are violent; and may employ some confrontational protest tactics. You [[or I) may disagree with these for any number of reasons, that does not make them fascist. Really. Again, Facts please.

***

To get at what you were trying to ask, but mangled so badly; no I don't support confrontational protests in the vast majority of cases. I do think it tends to be counter productive in shaping public opinion.

I think peaceful counter-protests are fine; though largely ineffective at persuading folks to change their minds.

I think efforts are typically better focused on research to identify why people are either misinformed, disaffected or both and to try to reach them through communication channels they would wish to use; and explain a different world view, in respectful terms in a way that's understandable to them.

Though I freely confess, people like you do make it easier to understand why people become exasperated and just give up on persuading people who are being irrational hatemongers and instead resort to counter-threat.

Not legal, not advisable, but too understandable.




Not remotely true; I favour an egalitarian model in which everyone is well educated. I simply oppose anyone exercising their right to be stupid.

So your definition of fascism is defined by a Wikipedia article that starts out by saying "Some scholars consider"

Seriously ? That is the result of a high education? Maybe a refund is in order.

You oppose anyone exercising thier right to be stupid.I guess everybody has a right to thier opinion,but you know what they say about that.

Because you determined who is stupid and who is not according to your thoughts.

As an above poster clarified Antifa has been designated a terrorist group and yet here you are trying to justify their existence.

You said you were a history expert or something along those lines,what exactly did hiltler and his supporters do in the first 53 days of him taking power as the chancellor ?

[Canadian Visitor]

So your definition of fascism is defined by a Wikipedia article that starts out by saying "Some scholars consider"

Seriously ? That is the result of a high education? Maybe a refund is in order.

You oppose anyone exercising thier right to be stupid.I guess everybody has a right to thier opinion,but you know what they say about that.

Because you determined who is stupid and who is not according to your thoughts.

I can cite hundreds of sources to back up the notion the essential character of fascism as described in that quote.

That's an easy and accessible source which, does have citations in its own right.

Which I know you didn't look up, nor did you see the context of the full article, or you would have known that wasn't the start of it.

That's what makes you lazy; which defines your choice to be ignorant.

You post without research.

Your questioning of a legitimate source, without so much as bothering to look it up would be laughable if it wasn't so shameful.

[Richard]

^ So why do you punish yourself with the indignity of hob nobing with the uneducated lower class?

Free yourself and maybe do something more useful,like finding the real meaning of life.

[Canadian Visitor]

^ So why do you punish yourself with the indignity of hob nobing with the uneducated lower class?

Free yourself and maybe do something more useful,like finding the real meaning of life.

You may self-describe as you wish.

You are not the only person here. Thank Goodness.

But let me pause.

I've already told you my background is not aristocratic by a long shot.

You still suggest I'm somehow a snob because I want people to aspire to better.

I have nothing in reply.

I think, that is kindness, optimism and acceptance; yet you somehow make it a crime.

You will think [[or not) as you wish.

There is clearly nothing I can do to change that.

Any effort I made in that direction was wasted.

As the facts aren't relevant to a member of the Flat Earth Society.

To be clear that isn't even pejorative [[insulting). Its factual.

You aren't open to different ideas than your own. So be it.

You have my genuine pity.

Its my nature not to condescend, but you make it all but impossible.

I feel sad for you; and sincerely hope no one depends on you, because surely they couldn't.

Maybe, if you're lucky and the world is too; someone will come along to convince you of the error[[s) of your ways.

But that won't be me.

Too bad, for both of us.

[Richard]

He lives in Charlottesville. Let me repeat that...HE LIVES IN CHARLOTTESVILLVE. He was born and raised in Virginia and he's a graduate of the University of Virginia and, I think this bears repeating once again...he fucking lives in Charlottesville.

I can't imagine why a self-described liberal who lives in Charlottesville would "just happen to be" at a major counter-protest located just minutes from his house and that attracted tens of thousands of people.

Yes, he worked for Tom Perriello [[not "Tom Parro"), a former Democratic Congressman who had represented Virginia's 5th district. What's the largest city in Virginia's 5th Congressional District? Answer: Charlottesville. But truly his presence in Charlottesville that day defies all logical explanation. I know, it's beyond belief that he would be in the city that he fucking lives in on the day of the protest.

Well that sounds logical,he lives there that is why he was there,makes sense that everybody that lived in Charlottesville was at the rally.

All 50,000 of them because they lived there.

I guess it is even conceivable that a person with his expirence,profile,and connections with gov intel, was just even out for a stroll in the park.

The state department has a habit of scrubbing records once somebody becomes public and no longer an asset because they become a liability.

A guy that was in charge of covert operations to overthrow an elected government in Africa had nothing else to do so he decided to have a stroll in the park.

Sounds conceivable.

[aj3647]

Well that sounds logical,he lives there that is why he was there,makes sense that everybody that lived in Charlottesville was at the rally.

All 50,000 of them because they lived there.

I guess it is even conceivable that a person with his expirence,profile,and connections with gov intel, was just even out for a stroll in the park.

The state department has a habit of scrubbing records once somebody becomes public and no longer an asset because they become a liability.

A guy that was in charge of covert operations to overthrow an elected government in Africa had nothing else to do so he decided to have a stroll in the park.

Sounds conceivable.

Who said it was a coincidence that he was there? Certainly not the man himself...when he wrote this article for Politico...where he explains that he was there that day along with many of his friends and family as part of the counter-protest. This link has already been provided to you once and you ignored it entirely.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...esville-215514

The idea that he is a secret CIA operative and that his presence there was part of some conspiracy was something propagated by neo-Nazis on 4Chan and Reddit. So really Richard, I'm not at all surprised to see you parroting neo-Nazi propaganda word for word here on DYes.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/witne...heories-began/

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, Brennan, tell us again, why did you want to be part of this protest?
BRENNAN GILMORE: Well, I thought it was very important to be there as a show of numbers against these white supremacists. So, I think any time you have this very vial ideology show its face in this country, you need to have a majority of people who reject it show up and show that the numbers are on our side. And so, that’s what took me to Charlottesville that day.
JUDY WOODRUFF: And you were saying this is close to your hometown.
BRENNAN GILMORE: Yes, I live in Charlottesville now.

[aj3647]

Meanwhile, back in actual reality, the "crying Nazi" Christopher Cantwell has surrendered to police in Virginia on three felony charges related to his actions at the Charlottesville rally:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...irginia-police

Cantwell had a warrant out for his arrest for two felony counts of illegal use of tear gas, and one count of malicious bodily injury by means of a caustic substance.

Cantwell had gained notoriety in part because he was featured in an HBO Vice documentary about the white supremacists at Charlottesville where Cantwell freely admitted the following:

“I’m carrying a pistol, I go to the gym all the time, I’m trying to make myself more capable of violence. I’m here to spread ideas, talk, in the hopes that somebody more capable will come along and do that. Somebody like Donald Trump, who does not give his daughter to a Jew.”

Cantwell also defended his fellow Nazi who ran over a crowd of people and murdered Heather Heyer, calling the action "more than justified."

[Canadian Visitor]

An on point article on moral equivalency and street protesting from Today's Toronto Star.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...sts-coren.html

[canuck]

An on point article on moral equivalency and street protesting from Today's Toronto Star.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...sts-coren.html

Excellent viewpoint. Thank you!

[Richard]

An on point article on moral equivalency and street protesting from Today's Toronto Star.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...sts-coren.html

Throw in the communist against the fascist and let them fight it out and take each other out.

Problem is there are some attending for the sole purpose of voicing their views without violent intent.They are ill prepared or unable to protect themselves.Do we then call them causalities of war?

When everybody had 5 month's to prepare,and using the provided link or opinion,I am considered a conspiracy theorist.

Because that is exactly what happened,they allowed the communist and the fascist into the ring knowingly,to fight it out and stood down,the end result was the death of an Innocent.

The link refers to actions of the 1930s,did it stop the spread of fascism or communism,clearly not.

I still question why a know CIA contractor that specialized in phy-opps that organized and implemented an operation that overthrew an elected government in Africa and installed a military power that had a history of genocide,was even there.

Attending a local protest,outside of because he lived there,was way out of his league.

He was interviewed as having a viral tweet and being just a everyday bystander,before the tweet became viral.The New York Times ran the story then retracted it.Why?

President Trump makes and initial statement about violence on both sides,either it was because it was to early to have the all the facts and it was safe statement to make verses none,or he was privy to information that we were not.Maybe,maybe not.

In the meantime a large rally was held in Boston with opposing sides and little violence.

Then

President Trump holds a rally,inside of a building,and there was violence requiring the use of counter violence outside.

Why?

Que in the comments on spelling and sentence structure and the attempted stifling of ones opinion to divert from the topic in 3...2...1

[canuck]

Throw in the communist against the fascist and let them fight it out and take each other out.

Problem is there are some attending for the sole purpose of voicing their views without violent intent.They are ill prepared or unable to protect themselves.Do we then call them causalities of war?

When everybody had 5 month's to prepare,and using the provided link or opinion,I am considered a conspiracy theorist.

Because that is exactly what happened,they allowed the communist and the fascist into the ring knowingly,to fight it out and stood down,the end result was the death of an Innocent.

The link refers to actions of the 1930s,did it stop the spread of fascism or communism,clearly not.

I still question why a know CIA contractor that specialized in phy-opps that organized and implemented an operation that overthrew an elected government in Africa and installed a military power that had a history of genocide,was even there.

Attending a local protest,outside of because he lived there,was way out of his league.

He was interviewed as having a viral tweet and being just a everyday bystander,before the tweet became viral.The New York Times ran the story then retracted it.Why?

President Trump makes and initial statement about violence on both sides,either it was because it was to early to have the all the facts and it was safe statement to make verses none,or he was privy to information that we were not.Maybe,maybe not.

In the meantime a large rally was held in Boston with opposing sides and little violence.

Then

President Trump holds a rally,inside of a building,and there was violence requiring the use of counter violence outside.

Why?

Que in the comments on spelling and sentence structure and the attempted stifling of ones opinion to divert from the topic in 3...2...1

That is the point Richard.

There weren't enough people protesting the violent antics of fascists in Europe at that time. Governments were complacent, relying on the Treaty of Versailles for a while and then shaking hands with Mussolini, then Hitler, letting them invade Lybia, or test their bombs in Spain. Of course, Spain could have turned into a communist hellhole. There are all these potential consequences when dealing with the strongman using strongarm techniques on either side.

In the here and now though, we have a bunch of left leaning protesters fighting the White Lives Matter bullshit artists that will not only take your rights away, they will kill you for the color of your skin, or for your religion.
With the gentle admonition of a benevolent Chump, Spencer and his bunch are encouraged to act on their "basic instincts".

[Richard]

That is the point Richard.

In the here and now though, we have a bunch of left leaning protesters fighting the White Lives Matter bullshit artists that will not only take your rights away, they will kill you for the color of your skin, or for your religion.
With the gentle admonition of a benevolent Chump, Spencer and his bunch are encouraged to act on their "basic instincts".

Yes,I understand that,the debate is not about factions and the actual tiny amount that they represent in the bigger picture of things or justification for their existence.

It is or should be about how to deal with them without undermining the rights of every other American in the process.

You cannot have that conversation,when it is brought up,by labeling everybody that one does not agree with,as a supporter of.

Socialism,Communism,Fascism,and what they represent is not what this country is about,nor is it acceptable in Canada,and both countries have made it clear that the depriving of rights to one group while allowing another to retain those same rights is not an acceptable option.

So how do we deal with them? The FBI is well aware of their existence and most likely have personal in the ranks,when they cross the line in legal terms then they are held accountable of their actions.Outside of that they will continue to exist for another 70 years as they have in the past.

I post my opinion about that days events but I also know full well that it is being investigated,if the CIA or anybody else was playing games,we will never know because it will be handled quietly for the good of the country.

What was resolved or learned from that day?

Antifa was declared a terrorist group.

A program that took years to get established or excepted and would have directly helped millions of Americans was thrown under the bus.

63 people were shot in the city of Chicago.

A young lady lost her life,needlessly.

Two police officers lost their lives,needlessly.

6 pages of a thread revolving around the spelling and proper formatting of a reply,and the displeasure of some against the uneducated.

It a real issue among a bunch of issues and none of them are getting resolved for the betterment of the country.We are stuck at square one spinning wheels and will continue to do so because we do not learn.

Then at the end of the day we always can place the blame on those in office that we do not like at the moment.

We are the people of both countries,we are supposed to look for solutions for our problems in a democratic way that helps all,and not sit by waiting for some savior in the government to guide us.

Until we do that,we reap what we sow.

We had a little city in America that the rest of the country could give a crap about,against all odds the residents of that city took their city back without violence and turned it around and is now on the path for the betterment of everybody in the community.They openly discuss the issues and look for solutions for all parties involved in a public forum provided by a private individual who most likely is not getting rich off of it.

It did not happen overnight and they still have a hard climb up,but that is what this country is about,and the very definition of who we are as Americans and Canadians,the rest of the country needs to pay attention and follow the example.

[GMan]

I don't think the Antifa is so docile as is implied.

If the Cancer don't kill you, the cure will.

[Canadian Visitor]

I thought about giving this its own thread.....but it does sorta fit here.

A column from the Richmond Times-Dispatch on 'tearing down' the real monuments to the Confederacy.

http://www.richmond.com/opinion/thei...ign=user-share

[canuck]

I thought about giving this its own thread.....but it does sorta fit here.

A column from the Richmond Times-Dispatch on 'tearing down' the real monuments to the Confederacy.

http://www.richmond.com/opinion/thei...ign=user-share

Yes. The comments section is pretty telling. Thanks CanVis.

[aj3647]

More felony arrests from the Charlottesville protests.

Richard Wilson Preston, 52, was caught on film opening fire on counter-protesters with a pistol he was carrying. Preston, wearing a camouflaged bulletproof vest and openly carrying a firearm, was leaving the Unite the Right rally when a black counter-protester yelled "Fuck you, go home!" at him. At that point, Preston turned around, drew his pistol and yelled "Hey nigger" before firing a single round in the direction of the counterprotesters [[he missed). Preston is an "Imperial Wizard" in the Ku Klux Klan.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/27/us/man...esville-rally/

Daniel P. Borden, 18, was arrested on felony charge of malicious wounding in the brutal beating of a black man in a parking garage at the Charlottesville rally. This attack was also caught on video and shows six Unite the Rally attendees brutally kicking and hitting a black man as he lies on the ground in the fetal position, defenseless. Others who participated in the attack are also being sought by the police.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/26/u...s.html?mcubz=1

[GMan]

More felony arrests from the Charlottesville protests.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/26/u...s.html?mcubz=1

Meanwhile in Berkley, the peaceful AntiFa Beat down Hate.
Er anybody that dosen't agree with them that is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...g-several.html

[Honky Tonk]

Meanwhile in Berkley, the peaceful AntiFa Beat down Hate.
Er anybody that dosen't agree with them that is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...g-several.html

The Nazis should take a lesson from these guys and sew kitty and doggy appliques on their swastika flags. It would make them seem, you know, "nicer". Mrs. Clinton's minions are serving her well. I wonder if they'll be manning the voting booths on Nov. 3rd 2020, to make sure no one votes for "hate".

[aj3647]

Meanwhile in Berkley, the peaceful AntiFa Beat down Hate.
Er anybody that dosen't agree with them that is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...g-several.html

Before you engage in your Whataboutism, can you at least take one sentence, just one sentence, to denounce the above individuals and say that what they did was wrong? You can't be bothered to denounce a KKK member opening fire on a black guy, can you? Or the gang-style beat down of a black man by some "very fine people?"

Just say it once. Just one sentence, just so I know that you are capable of denouncing white supremacist, KKK, and Nazi violence.

[Richard]

More felony arrests from the Charlottesville protests.

Richard Wilson Preston, 52, was caught on film opening fire on counter-protesters with a pistol he was carrying. Preston, wearing a camouflaged bulletproof vest and openly carrying a firearm, was leaving the Unite the Right rally when a black counter-protester yelled "Fuck you, go home!" at him. At that point, Preston turned around, drew his pistol and yelled "Hey nigger" before firing a single round in the direction of the counterprotesters [[he missed). Preston is an "Imperial Wizard" in the Ku Klux Klan.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/27/us/man...esville-rally/

Daniel P. Borden, 18, was arrested on felony charge of malicious wounding in the brutal beating of a black man in a parking garage at the Charlottesville rally. This attack was also caught on video and shows six Unite the Rally attendees brutally kicking and hitting a black man as he lies on the ground in the fetal position, defenseless. Others who participated in the attack are also being sought by the police.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/26/u...s.html?mcubz=1

So basically they were allowed to exercise their right to assemble until some crossed the line and now face the consequences of their action's, that is kinda how it works.

The original statement by the President denounced the violence on both sides,was that an accurate statement?