Detroit closing part of Woodward Avenue for pedestrian block

**royce** · June-09-17, 10:28 PM

Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, bad idea. I went to test it out today around 4 p.m. The traffic was backed up to the southern etch of Campus Martius Park. When I got to Larned I was in the middle lane and saw a major backup along Larned between Randolph and Woodward. Cars exiting the Millennium Garage [[the one across from CAY?) and a long traffic light at Larned/Randolph had the traffic moving at a snail's pace. In addition, there were two to three buses in front of the CAY picking up passengers that blocked traffic. If it wasn't for the fact that the driver to my left had decided to make a U-turn back onto Woodward heading north, with me following, then it would have probably taken 10-15 minutes to clear that congestion.

I went back that way around 7 p.m and again the traffic began to back up at the southern edge of Campus Martius. I didnt even attempt to stay on Woodward and went around CM to Michigan Avenue.

This definitely needs to be reexamined. Actually, closing the northbound lanes and leaving the southbound lanes of Woodward open would be a good compromise.

**archfan** · June-10-17, 01:57 AM

The traffic at 4pm on a Friday doesn't sound unusual at all - people are running for the exits about then. There may well be some additional congestion because of this at first, just like with a new construction zone, but folks should get used to it over the next couple weeks.

**ParisianLesion** · June-10-17, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by archfan

The traffic at 4pm on a Friday doesn't sound unusual at all - people are running for the exits about then. There may well be some additional congestion because of this at first, just like with a new construction zone, but folks should get used to it over the next couple weeks.

Exactly. That is why it is a 90 day pilot and not a 9 day pilot. We have two anecdotes so far, one positive and one negative, both of which have no evidence of direct correlation with the plaza. Let's give this some time folks.

**DetBill** · June-10-17, 10:39 PM

[QUOTE=archfan;526907]The traffic at 4pm on a Friday doesn't sound unusual at all - people are running for the exits about then. There may well be some additional congestion because of this at first, just like with a new construction zone, but folks should get used to it over the next couple weeks.[/QUO
Yes, I was there yesterday aft, traffic was a mess around it, and to make matters worse, no one walking in it, just people walking on the sidewalks, like before.. Walked through again today, traffic not as bad but backed up, and again, no one in this area. Personally, I think the whole idea is really dumb, cant figure out what this is supposed to do or accomplish, its a silly area to close, but it does back up traffic routes. I really hope they just go back to a open roadway. Lots of better areas for a active pedestrian mall.

**jcole** · June-11-17, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by DetBill

Originally Posted by archfan

The traffic at 4pm on a Friday doesn't sound unusual at all - people are running for the exits about then. There may well be some additional congestion because of this at first, just like with a new construction zone, but folks should get used to it over the next couple weeks.

Yes, I was there yesterday aft, traffic was a mess around it, and to make matters worse, no one walking in it, just people walking on the sidewalks, like before.. Walked through again today, traffic not as bad but backed up, and again, no one in this area. Personally, I think the whole idea is really dumb, cant figure out what this is supposed to do or accomplish, its a silly area to close, but it does back up traffic routes. I really hope they just go back to a open roadway. Lots of better areas for a active pedestrian mall.

Don't worry, when the first 3 or 4 people get hit by cars after wandering into Jefferson, they'll take a second look

**royce** · June-12-17, 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by archfan

The traffic at 4pm on a Friday doesn't sound unusual at all - people are running for the exits about then. There may well be some additional congestion because of this at first, just like with a new construction zone, but folks should get used to it over the next couple weeks.

The traffic on a Friday is not that much different from traffic Monday-Thursday. If people get off of work at the same time everyday, then they usually leave at the same time everyday.

One of the other issues with the closing of Woodward at Jefferson concerns the tunnel. When it was open, a person going to the tunnel from Woodward would make the left onto Jefferson and file into one of the two right lanes on Jefferson leading to the tunnel entrance [[Randolph). Any back-up along Jefferson would not slow down the other lanes on Jefferson. Now, people have to go to Randolph from Larned to get to the tunnel, creating traffic congestion at Larned and Randolph that wasn't there before because cars were lining up on Jefferson.

Note: There are two parking garages along Larned that let out onto Larned. I thought there was only one. This fact further strengthens my position that this is a bad idea, whether it's on a Friday at four or a Monday at four.

**401don** · June-12-17, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by royce

The traffic on a Friday is not that much different from traffic Monday-Thursday. If people get off of work at the same time everyday, then they usually leave at the same time everyday.

One of the other issues with the closing of Woodward at Jefferson concerns the tunnel. When it was open, a person going to the tunnel from Woodward would make the left onto Jefferson and file into one of the two right lanes on Jefferson leading to the tunnel entrance [[Randolph). Any back-up along Jefferson would not slow down the other lanes on Jefferson. Now, people have to go to Randolph from Larned to get to the tunnel, creating traffic congestion at Larned and Randolph that wasn't there before because cars were lining up on Jefferson.

Note: There are two parking garages along Larned that let out onto Larned. I thought there was only one. This fact further strengthens my position that this is a bad idea, whether it's on a Friday at four or a Monday at four.

I posted this earlier in this thread. When the tunnel is busy barriers are set in the middle of Jefferson so tunnel traffic cannot cross from Randolph directly into the tunnel [[for fear tunnel backups block Jefferson). Traffic will have to go left from Larned to Randolph, right on Jefferson to Woodward, and back along Jefferson to enter the tunnel. Bad enough if you know your way, a nightmare if you don't.

**gumby** · June-12-17, 07:00 AM

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I think we have proven time and again that closing off roads for only pedestrians doesn't work.

**casscorridor** · June-12-17, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by gumby

I think we have proven time and again that closing off roads for only pedestrians doesn't work.

Wrong. There are many examples of pedestrianized streets working very well, all over the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_zone

**gumby** · June-12-17, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Wrong. There are many examples of pedestrianized streets working very well, all over the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_zone

They have never worked in Detroit. What is good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.

**dtowncitylover** · June-12-17, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by gumby

They have never worked in Detroit. What is good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.

They've "never" worked in Detroit because this city has been turned into an auto paradise. If we were a true urbanized city like most of the alpha and even beta cities of the world, it wouldn't be a problem to have one or two pedestrian-only zones.

**grm** · June-12-17, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by 1953

I have two concerns here.

2. Woodward and Jefferson has deep symbolic value as the heart of the region. There is something special about being able to turn onto Woodward at its start and drive all the way to Pontiac. Or driving your kids downtown and going past the Spirit of Detroit and all of the skyscrapers in the heart of the city.

1953

I totally agree with you. I've done this drive since I got my license at 16. Thinking of not being able to start at that corner is sad. For me, starting a few blocks up [[after winding around of course!) will just not have the same feel.
Plus I think it will be a traffic nightmare!

**Gistok** · June-12-17, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by grm

I totally agree with you. I've done this drive since I got my license at 16. Thinking of not being able to start at that corner is sad. For me, starting a few blocks up [[after winding around of course!) will just not have the same feel.
Plus I think it will be a traffic nightmare!

You and 1953 bring up very valid points.... and some folks seem to have forgotten about Woodward being the only Michigan road with the "All American Road designation"... of the American Scenic Byways program sponsored by the federal government.

http://www.mlive.com/travel/index.ss...ets_all-a.html

I think that having the very first block of this historic roadway closed to auto traffic goes against the spirit of the historic desigation.

**Gistok** · June-12-17, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Wrong. There are many examples of pedestrianized streets working very well, all over the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_zone

As Gumby already mentioned... what works in Europe/Asia and denser American cities doesn't work in Detroit. If they want to close a street, they should try doing it with Monroe Ave. for the 2 block stretch in Greektown from Brush to St. Antoine... and see how that works out.

**evergreen** · June-12-17, 01:27 PM

Did council approve this? Because ordinary citizens have to get council approval before temporarily closing a street for a block party. Didn't hear that any council members we're present for ribbon cutting.

**gnome** · June-12-17, 01:48 PM

Mrs Gnome and I were blessed to experience the closing of Woodward Sunday evening about 7ish.

We were both aware of the closing, had reviewed the graphic maps on-line, and were ready to be inconvenienced.

Apparently none of my fellow motorists were remotely willing to be inconvenienced. Frustrated. Perplexed. Confused. Angry. Moreover, signage had conflicting information and the popo seemed to be of the opinion that sitting inside their cars was the best way to aid the congestion.

Eventually we had to pull a Uie head the wrong way on a one-way and slip through an alley.

If the city leaders are serious about this pedestrian thing, I would suggest to close Woodward south of Campus Martius.

The half-hearted execution of closing the 100 block is neither fish nor fowl.

**getmoore** · June-12-17, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by gumby

They have never worked in Detroit. What is good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.

But what about Campus Martius?

**internet_pseudopod** · June-12-17, 02:44 PM

So what happened to all of those buses that used to go down Larned and pick up in front of the City-County building or turn up Woodward? What happened to their passengers?

**Danny** · June-12-17, 05:42 PM

Now here come the traffic problems.

**Atticus** · June-12-17, 06:53 PM

I love the plaza, but the real benefit to this project is it makes Jefferson at Woodward a two phase signal:
Phase 1: Jefferson Traffic
Phase 2: Pedestrian Traffic - no vehicle conflicts
It is simple operation for a pedestrian to understand, and with only two phases now, the wait times to cross Jefferson are dramatically reduced in a way that could never be done if the intersection was left the way it was before.

Under the old configuration it was:
Phase 1: Jefferson through traffic
Phase 2: EB Jefferson to NB Woodward Lefts
Phase 3: SB Woodward, with pedestrians walk signals, with Woodward left [[and right) traffic turning across the ped crosswalk.

Look at how much simpler the top operation is from the bottom. That is why it is safer for peds, and will make for a much better pedestrian crossing into Hart Plaza.

I can see why some dislike parts of the traffic impacts [[even though I disagree from a holistic perspective), but that is the trade-off folks. Either you have an inviting and safer pedestrian crossing of Jefferson, or you allow 3+ vehicular phases at the Woodward/Jefferson intersection. It is one or the other, you can't have both.

If you talk to any planner or even traffic engineer who is familiar with improving pedestrian operations in an Urban Environment, the number one goal is that when designing for pedestrians and you have a traffic signal, you want a two-phase traffic signal operation.

I cannot stress enough the benefit of two phase signal operations. This design accomplishes that, albeit with a small trade off.

**detroitsgwenivere** · June-12-17, 07:04 PM

The jury is still out for me regarding this pedestrian block off, but I will say this... It took me 28 minutes in the car to go from Trumbull to the CAY on Saturday afternoon. And most of that time was spent sitting on Griswold waiting for people to turn. I don't understand why people think that it's ok to block the effin intersection. If the stopped car in front of you hasn't cleared the intersection, please refrain from pulling up behind it and sitting in the middle of the street, blocking everyone from going anywhere.

Me thinks that if the city wants to keep this area blocked off, they should have traffic control during events and rush hours.

**Atticus** · June-12-17, 07:26 PM

I will also add that the current closure of the Congress on-ramp to M-10 by Cobo is also contributing to some of the delays. If that ramp were open, or when it re-opens in a few weeks, traffic can then continue down Congress to M-10, which should help reduce some of the traffic jams on Griswold today.

**gumby** · June-12-17, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by getmoore

But what about Campus Martius?

Campus Martius is a traffic circle with a park in the middle of it which simplified that horrific intersection. Vehicular traffic is still allowed, apples and oranges. If anything it proves that pedestrians and vehicles can coexist quite well when properly designed.

**gumby** · June-12-17, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

They've "never" worked in Detroit because this city has been turned into an auto paradise. If we were a true urbanized city like most of the alpha and even beta cities of the world, it wouldn't be a problem to have one or two pedestrian-only zones.

But Detroit is not a true urbanized city like those alpha and beta cities of the world. Not saying it shouldn't strive for that but it is not there yet.

**mtburb** · June-12-17, 11:13 PM

Went west on Jefferson on Saturday coming back from the north country as I-75 southbound, my usual route back home from northern points, was [[as you all know by now) closed a few miles away and it took six minutes to get from where I-375 merges into Jefferson to where the Lodge sinks below Cobo and most of that was sitting in rush hour-like traffic. There were even countless pedestrians everywhere due to some event that was taking place on the riverfront that evening.

I bet part of that rush hour was due to this closure...