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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    Trade may produce cost savings, but that's not the purpose. The purpose is to free us to choose the best product at the best price. And that's good for everyone. Especially for Detroit citizens.
    I think that thought pattern is dangerous for the country and has put this country in a downward spiral economically.

    In the 70s Americans chose the best product at the best price,it did not work out to well for the US auto makers and the impact is still realized today.

    What we failed to do as a country is up the game and produce our own best products at the best price.

    We find,support and justify that it is cheaper and faster to import everything from plastic spoons and now brains then it is to nuture our own.

    We pay the price for it and in return we are in a position where there is little choice but to buy the cheapest product no matter what the cost,because we are bent on becoming a service economy.

    Foreign automakers built plants in the south,Germany built the steel mills to supply them.

    We build ramps in order to slide down them cheaper and faster.

    What is the total cost factor to the hospital comparing a US worker verses a Canadian worker ?

    How does a Canadian pay for the education required,be it a Masters or Bachelors degree?

    Is it self funded or government subsidies?

    The first question will give you the answer,and if one is really thinking about it they will understand why it was quickly changed back to the TN status.

    Based on experience and what I personally read and hear,there are very few companies in this country that are importing brain power at the same salaries of the people that they are replacing.

    The only reason for a corporation to exist is to make money for the shareholders,they are judged and compensated by their quarterly earnings,their long term interest in this country is irrelevant.

    on a side note for those turning this into a political statement,the wheels of this were actually put into motion in 2015 under the previous administration,I would be surprised if the current president even knew this was going down to begin with.

    http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/11/de...-visa-program/
    Last edited by Richard; March-19-17 at 07:58 PM.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    The U.S. has probably the tightest borders of any first world nation on the planet.

    And I have never heard anyone ever advocate for "open borders". Trump cultists love to rant and rave about "open borders" but there has never been such a thing.

    If Trump said there were pink unicorns galloping down Pennsylvania Ave., I have no doubt his cultists would swear it were true. Even Trump bragged he could shoot someone dead right on Fifth Ave., and it wouldn't matter to his hard-core cultists. And he's right.
    The US has a very weak border and immigration inspection system. I doubt any other country in the world currently has over 10 million illegals living within its borders as the US has now. Here in Colombia the national police are constantly checking documents. It's nearly impossible here in Colombia to receive money via Western Union if you overstayed your visit. There are thousands of people every month in Turbo Colombia from all over the world preparing to use the overland route to the USA.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I think that thought pattern is dangerous for the country and has put this country in a downward spiral economically.
    Considering the U.S. has the highest median and mean incomes of any major country on earth, some of the highest growth rates in the developed world, and an economy larger than the whole of the EU, I would say you're wrong.

    The U.S. is essentially at full employment and maximum economic capacity. Only in Trumplandia is the economy a "disaster". Only among the cultists is there a problem with 16 million new jobs, a record Dow, and record income gains.

    But I'm sure that the Trump administration will eventually put an end to all this, and all the Deplorables will end up blaming brown people, gays, feminists, foreigners, Muslims and "libtards" for their miserable lot in life, rather than the President and party that controls all levers of governing.

    The trailer parks, backwoods and lower class suburbs of America are about to get very, very angry. Their taxes are going up, they're going to lose healthcare, the economy will eventually crater and they got duped.
    Last edited by Bham1982; March-19-17 at 08:38 PM.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colombian Dan View Post
    The US has a very weak border and immigration inspection system.
    Wrong. The U.S. has the toughest borders and immigration system of any first world country on earth. It's extremely tough to immigrate legally to the U.S. We have only half the legal immigration of our economic rivals.

    We have a ridiculously militarized border, which is almost insanely overpatrolled, with drones smashing into each other and bored patrol agents doing side jobs smuggling drugs and guns. Immigrants don't even come over land borders much these days anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colombian Dan View Post
    I doubt any other country in the world currently has over 10 million illegals living within its borders as the US has now.
    This has zero to do with borders or immigration.

    We have 10 million illegals because there is no legal way for migrant workers to live/work in the U.S. and because the govt. refuses to go after employers. The illegals are stuck here (they've been stuck for decades; very few came in the last 20 years).

    If you actually cared about illegals (and I have no doubt you don't care even a bit; you're really trying to remove brown people from the U.S.) you would A. Go after employers and B. Craft a legal path to citizenship for migrant workers. Trump will do neither (in fact the Republicans refused to do either despite eight years of Obama pushing for both).

    Canada, to take an example, has very weak borders and minimal immigration rules compared to the U.S. but almost no illegals, because Canada has a legal process for working class labor and goes after employers. Same goes for Germany and practically every country in Western Europe.

    It's VERY easy to stop illegal migration, but under Trump it will never happen, because the only way you do it is by crafting a legal path, which would mean more brown people. Better to have fewer brown people and demonize the ones that got here to fire up the racist base.

    And your Columbian narrative is absurd. Columbians aren't in the U.S. in large numbers except in the NYC area and Florida, and they all come by plane. You really think Columbians are walking to the U.S.? LOL!

  5. #55

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    http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/informa...s/5312ETOC.asp

    Are you inadmissible because of past criminal activity?


    In general, temporary residents and applicants applying for permanent residence are considered to be criminally inadmissible if the person:


    • was convicted of an offence in Canada;
    • was convicted of an offence outside of Canada that is considered a crime in Canada; or
    • committed an act outside of Canada that is considered a crime under the laws of the country where it occurred and would be punishable under Canadian law.

    ...
    Convictions / offences outside Canada

    If you were convicted of or committed a criminal offence outside Canada, you may overcome this criminal inadmissibility

    • by applying for rehabilitation, or
    • you may be deemed to have been rehabilitated if at least ten years have passed since you completed the sentence imposed upon you, or since you committed the offence, if the offence is one that would, in Canada, be an indictable offence punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of less than ten years.

    ...
    Instructions for applying for proof of rehabilitation follows. Fee is C$200.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    Wrong. The U.S. has the toughest borders and immigration system of any first world country on earth. It's extremely tough to immigrate legally to the U.S. We have only half the legal immigration of our economic rivals.

    We have a ridiculously militarized border, which is almost insanely overpatrolled, with drones smashing into each other and bored patrol agents doing side jobs smuggling drugs and guns. Immigrants don't even come over land borders much these days anyways.


    This has zero to do with borders or immigration.

    We have 10 million illegals because there is no legal way for migrant workers to live/work in the U.S. and because the govt. refuses to go after employers. The illegals are stuck here (they've been stuck for decades; very few came in the last 20 years).

    If you actually cared about illegals (and I have no doubt you don't care even a bit; you're really trying to remove brown people from the U.S.) you would A. Go after employers and B. Craft a legal path to citizenship for migrant workers. Trump will do neither (in fact the Republicans refused to do either despite eight years of Obama pushing for both).

    Canada, to take an example, has very weak borders and minimal immigration rules compared to the U.S. but almost no illegals, because Canada has a legal process for working class labor and goes after employers. Same goes for Germany and practically every country in Western Europe.

    It's VERY easy to stop illegal migration, but under Trump it will never happen, because the only way you do it is by crafting a legal path, which would mean more brown people. Better to have fewer brown people and demonize the ones that got here to fire up the racist base.

    And your Columbian narrative is absurd. Columbians aren't in the U.S. in large numbers except in the NYC area and Florida, and they all come by plane. You really think Columbians are walking to the U.S.? LOL!

    If you actually read Dans post he used the words "here in Columbia" which to me anyways would meen he is physically in that country and giving a view of an actual potential immigrant.

    Maybe sometimes it is better to put ones anger aside and actually listen to the experiences of those involved verses the rhetoric that is displayed in order to serve an agenda.

    He would actually be considered one of those brown people that you are accuseing him of being intolerant of.

    To further quote you .. LOL

    People call Trump racist against the Mexicans when he talks about securing the southern border.

    Do people really believe that there is some kind of force field at the border that zaps non Mexicans and prevents them from crossing?

    The border is not secure and it does not care what color you are or from what country you hail from,if you want to cross it is not its responsibility to stop you.It is not rocket science.
    Last edited by Richard; March-20-17 at 11:32 AM.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    I think that thought pattern is dangerous for the country and has put this country in a downward spiral economically.

    In the 70s Americans chose the best product at the best price,it did not work out to well for the US auto makers and the impact is still realized today.

    What we failed to do as a country is up the game and produce our own best products at the best price.
    You are correct.

    What I suggest is that what happened in the 70s was exactly what needed to happen. The problem wasn't Japanese cars. The problem was American cars. We weren't pushed down by the Japanese. We failed all on our own.

    American has a fine auto industry today. Why? Because of free trade. If we had closed down Japanese imports, I think we'd all be driving American Lada's today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    We find,support and justify that it is cheaper and faster to import everything from plastic spoons and now brains then it is to nuture our own.
    This argument is what I seek to understand. Are you right? Could be in fact 'nurture our own' and get a better result? I just don't see it. What would the world look like? Would people still buy Tide, or Apple, or Hollywood movies, or 787's, or Caterpillar tractors? Or would the rest of the world buy less American, and put us out of work as the world's breadbasket and creator of many of the best products in the world?

    I see trade as creating American wealth. You see it as destroying it. We can't both be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    We pay the price for it and in return we are in a position where there is little choice but to buy the cheapest product no matter what the cost,because we are bent on becoming a service economy.
    What? I don't understand this at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Foreign automakers built plants in the south,Germany built the steel mills to supply them.

    We build ramps in order to slide down them cheaper and faster.

    What is the total cost factor to the hospital comparing a US worker verses a Canadian worker ?

    How does a Canadian pay for the education required,be it a Masters or Bachelors degree?

    Is it self funded or government subsidies?

    The first question will give you the answer,and if one is really thinking about it they will understand why it was quickly changed back to the TN status.
    Please share. I don't get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    Based on experience and what I personally read and hear,there are very few companies in this country that are importing brain power at the same salaries of the people that they are replacing.
    I acknowledge the pain of some. But do you think nobody comes here and gets paid well too? Are there not qualified doctors, nurses, engineers, Silicon Valley wizards from abroad who are commanding more than some born in San Francisco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard View Post
    The only reason for a corporation to exist is to make money for the shareholders,they are judged and compensated by their quarterly earnings,their long term interest in this country is irrelevant.
    What? Sure, there's too much emphasis on short-term earnings, to be sure. But long-term American business and our economy are the best in the world. We create inflation-adjusted positive returns for our citizens in wealth and health.

    I do not understand Corporate Hate? Hating Corporations is like hating the weather, or cars. They are simply vehicles.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    You are correct.

    What I suggest is that what happened in the 70s was exactly what needed to happen. The problem wasn't Japanese cars. The problem was American cars. We weren't pushed down by the Japanese. We failed all on our own.

    American has a fine auto industry today. Why? Because of free trade. If we had closed down Japanese imports, I think we'd all be driving American Lada's today.


    This argument is what I seek to understand. Are you right? Could be in fact 'nurture our own' and get a better result? I just don't see it. What would the world look like? Would people still buy Tide, or Apple, or Hollywood movies, or 787's, or Caterpillar tractors? Or would the rest of the world buy less American, and put us out of work as the world's breadbasket and creator of many of the best products in the world?

    I see trade as creating American wealth. You see it as destroying it. We can't both be right.


    What? I don't understand this at all.

    Please share. I don't get it.
    You act like the Japanese auto industry is the perfect model of free trade.

    Nothing could be further from the truth.

    It was and is one of the fiercest protected and government sponsered large industry's ever built on this earth.

    Are you really that ignorant about the Japanese domestic auto industry over the last 50 years or do you think the rest of us are so this ludicrous made up bullshit will fly?

    Next you want to talk about how open the Japanese market is to American agriculture products or heavy equipment? Are you serious? Put the crack pipe down.

    Show me a pure Capitalist, Communist or Socialist and I will show you a liar that will distort truths and facts wildly to fit their idiology every damn time.

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit View Post
    You act like the Japanese auto industry is the perfect model of free trade.

    Nothing could be further from the truth.
    It was and is one of the fiercest protected and government sponsered large industry's ever built on this earth.
    This has nothing to do with anything. Japan isn't a major global buyer of cars; they're a major global producer of cars. Most Japanese households don't even own cars. Cars are very expensive, incomes are low, and public transit is fantastic.

    Whether or not Japan has internal tariffs has nothing to do with whether someone in Novi is buying a Honda over a Ford.

    And Japan has had an absolute crap economy for 25 years now. We should be running far away from any Japanese style protectionism. Global trade made the U.S. incredibly rich.

  10. #60

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    To make it easier to follow I will bold highlight my responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch View Post
    You are correct.

    What I suggest is that what happened in the 70s was exactly what needed to happen. The problem wasn't Japanese cars. The problem was American cars. We weren't pushed down by the Japanese. We failed all on our own.

    American has a fine auto industry today. Why? Because of free trade. If we had closed down Japanese imports, I think we'd all be driving American Lada's today.


    This argument is what I seek to understand. Are you right? Could be in fact 'nurture our own' and get a better result? I just don't see it. What would the world look like? Would people still buy Tide, or Apple, or Hollywood movies, or 787's, or Caterpillar tractors? Or would the rest of the world buy less American, and put us out of work as the world's breadbasket and creator of many of the best products in the world?

    US products such as you mention are world renowned and command the demand that they do is because they are made in America and built to last,when we create a situation where those companies decided it is cheaper to build them elsewhere we lose that competitiveness.

    I export 10 and 15 year old made in America equipment and I receive more price wise for that used equipment then they can buy it for foreign made brand new.

    There are companies making the newer equipment in this country but they use cheap internals foreign made,so in essence they are made in America but they are no different then the imported junk.People know that.

    I see trade as creating American wealth. You see it as destroying it. We can't both be right.

    The right trade creates wealth when the balance is upset is when the trade becomes unequal which is the case where our products are taxed but yet we do not tax or tariff incoming trade.


    What? I don't understand this at all.

    Originally Posted by Richard

    Foreign automakers built plants in the south,Germany built the steel mills to supply them.

    We build ramps in order to slide down them cheaper and faster.

    What is the total cost factor to the hospital comparing a US worker verses a Canadian worker ?

    How does a Canadian pay for the education required,be it a Masters or Bachelors degree?

    Is it self funded or government subsidies?

    The first question will give you the answer,and if one is really thinking about it they will understand why it was quickly changed back to the TN status.


    Please share. I don't get it.

    The foreign auto manufactures built their plants in the south to produce the cars,then Germany built steel mills and stamping plants in the south to supply them.

    So in essence they moved Detroit into the south,if the demand was there how come an American steel plant did not build there,how come the Detroit stamping plants did not locate there with another location?Because we as a country have gotten to the point where it is cheaper for a foreign company to come here and set up shop then it is for and American company to do the exact same thing.

    You will pay the same amount of money as an end user for those cars as you would for an American partially built car,they are not saying,our labor costs are cheaper so we will sell you the car cheaper.

    I acknowledge the pain of some. But do you think nobody comes here and gets paid well too? Are there not qualified doctors, nurses, engineers, Silicon Valley wizards from abroad who are commanding more than some born in San Francisco?

    In July of 2015 Obama ordered homeland security and immigration to crack down on the H-B1 visa,why?

    Because the law was written as if you as a company could not find a highly skilled employee you could import that labor under the H-B1 but you had to pay them the prevailing wage or a wage equal to what an American would make in the same position.

    Sounds fair,but it was not happening,IT personal that were making 100k a year were replaced by foreign labor and being paid 60k a year.

    Illegal to do under the terms of the H-B1 visa program,but it was happening unchecked.

    So lets say you have a local company that was bringing foreign labor in under the TN program which does not have that requirement and then switch them over to the H-B1 program and then all of the sudden that company would then be required to pay those foreign workers the prevailing wage.Because now the rules are actually being enforced.

    So it would be in your best interest to garner public support and feed off of the ongoing hatred of the currant administration to reverse that decision because it could cost you millions in added payroll.

    That is why I asked what was their comparison of a US worker verses a Canadian worker when it comes to payroll.

    They will not answer that question because at the end of the day it has zero to do with health and everything to do with the bottom line.


    What? Sure, there's too much emphasis on short-term earnings, to be sure. But long-term American business and our economy are the best in the world. We create inflation-adjusted positive returns for our citizens in wealth and health.

    But yet we have had the largest transfer of wealth from the middle to lower end then at any other time in history.We may be the strongest economy but that co-insides with the size of our country,a countries wealth is measured in more then monetary.

    We claim to be the largest economy in wealth but yet our education system is in shambles,our infrastructure is in dire need of repair,most households have to be dual income to pay the basic needs in life,so who exactly does being the largest economy in the world benefit ?


    I do not understand Corporate Hate? Hating Corporations is like hating the weather, or cars. They are simply vehicles.
    It is not corporate hatred,it has been proven throughout history without checks and balances greed wins over humanity.

    Was Roosevelt wrong to break up standard oil,should the automotive commission been allowed to regulate who was able to produce cars,there are millions of daily examples of corporations that would prefer paying $1 per day in labor costs without a care towards the ramifications it would do to the rest of the country.

    Hedge funds bought and broke up companies not to build and employ but to squeeze every dollar out then shut them down.Did they care about the jobs lost or ramifications.

    Why do or did we need unions if corporations were so civic minded?

    It was Roosevelt that implemented the 40 hour work week,the 6 day work week,child labor laws etc. but yet the unions were still needed to act as a policing force in essence to insure that the laws were followed.

    You employ,but with out knowing you I would think it would be safe to say even though you are in business for profit,but I would garner there is not a time where you are not thinking about your employees.

    That is the difference between small business and large business where it is nothing personal it is just business and that is the first thing they teach in business school is the sole purpose of a corporation is to make money for the share holders.

  11. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    This has nothing to do with anything. Japan isn't a major global buyer of cars; they're a major global producer of cars. Most Japanese households don't even own cars. Cars are very expensive, incomes are low, and public transit is fantastic.

    Whether or not Japan has internal tariffs has nothing to do with whether someone in Novi is buying a Honda over a Ford.

    And Japan has had an absolute crap economy for 25 years now. We should be running far away from any Japanese style protectionism. Global trade made the U.S. incredibly rich.

    Actually advanced industrialization made the US rich,we were able to produce goods in large quantities to supply the rest of the world when they were lacking at that time.

    Global trade in itself can be a good thing on its own but when you mix free trade into the frey it becomes a bit one sided.

    The US is the market of demand so why do we allow free trade across our borders while in return we are taxed and charged import duties for our goods?

    It has everything to do with somebody in Novi buying a Ford over a Honda,which is made here anyways,but you feel it is okay for Honda to bring their goods here under free trade but yet charge Ford to export their goods overseas?

    Once again,you can bring whatever you want from Mexico over the border into the US but as soon as you want to bring something into Mexico from the US you are taxed by Mexico so how exactly does that seem fair or even reasonable?

  12. #62

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    The argument over trade in the auto industry with Japan is ludicrous. Mercedes and BMW have no problem selling cars in Japan, and are in fact extremely popular there. But there is simply no market for American cars there and no one wants them (except for a very active market in U.S. antique/collector cars).

    Not only do American cars have a terrible reliability reputation, but the biggest problem is that we only build left-hand drive cars. These are simply not practical for use in country where people drive to the left. The German companies, and others importing into Japan (like Korean companies) are willing to sell right-drive cars in Japan and we are not. My cousin spent 6 years in sales in Japan for GM and kept yelling at them over and over again that there was no way to meet any sales target until they built cars that Japanese consumers could drive safely. And their answer was always that it would cost too much to produce right-drive cars, and that they were not interested in shipping the right-drive cars that GM subsidiaries in Australia built.

    He has since been much more successful selling GM cars in China, where they drive on the right and certain GM models (most notably Buick) have a historical cachet because that ol' commie Zhou Enlai had one.

  13. #63

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    I always wondered why the Buick was considered a status symbol,it is nice to learn something new everyday.

    It seems that the GM heads are now listening to what your cousin was saying as reported here.

    http://gmauthority.com/blog/2015/09/...om-u-s-lineup/

  14. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastsideAl View Post
    The argument over trade in the auto industry with Japan is ludicrous. Mercedes and BMW have no problem selling cars in Japan, and are in fact extremely popular there. But there is simply no market for American cars there and no one wants them (except for a very active market in U.S. antique/collector cars).

    Not only do American cars have a terrible reliability reputation, but the biggest problem is that we only build left-hand drive cars. These are simply not practical for use in country where people drive to the left. The German companies, and others importing into Japan (like Korean companies) are willing to sell right-drive cars in Japan and we are not. My cousin spent 6 years in sales in Japan for GM and kept yelling at them over and over again that there was no way to meet any sales target until they built cars that Japanese consumers could drive safely. And their answer was always that it would cost too much to produce right-drive cars, and that they were not interested in shipping the right-drive cars that GM subsidiaries in Australia built.

    He has since been much more successful selling GM cars in China, where they drive on the right and certain GM models (most notably Buick) have a historical cachet because that ol' commie Zhou Enlai had one.
    There is no chance I will debate anything with Eastside Al without data. First I will concede your point on GMs lack of right hand drive product. Ford is a completely different story. Ford sells more right hand drive vehicles in the UK market than all of the German cars combined in Japan's market which is roughly twice the size of UK market.

    http://www.best-selling-cars.com/jap...turers-brands/

    http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-new...rs-and-losers/

    Some data on Japanese domestic auto import barriers which are a very inconvenient truth for the Millions of Americans that are big fans of Japanese cars.


    https://democrats-waysandmeans.house...-by-side_0.pdf

    Last point. A import high cost environment allows high priced luxury goods to still exist simply by the nature of them being expensive and exclusive. Sir, we will respectfully disagree by the market share sales numbers of the German cars in Japan if they are "extremely popular" in meaning they are commonly purchased or just coveted by those who cannot afford to join the club.
    Last edited by ABetterDetroit; March-20-17 at 06:03 PM.

  15. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bham1982 View Post
    Canada, to take an example, has very weak borders and minimal immigration rules compared to the U.S. but almost no illegals, because Canada has a legal process for working class labor and goes after employers. Same goes for Germany and practically every country in Western Europe.
    Just a note, since I assume it's not top of the news in the US, but illegal immigration into Canada from the US is growing. And this is during the dead of winter. There's worry that it'll really surge once the weather turns in the prairies.

    http://globalnews.ca/news/3276156/as...-warm-weather/

    I'm sure that leaves us no where on par with the issue compared to what the US faces along Mexico. But the problem does exist in Canada, and it's growing.

    And just out today, almost half of Canadians want the illegals kicked out:

    http://globalnews.ca/news/3321089/il...deported-poll/

  16. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by DetBill View Post
    Yes, unfortunately it works both ways.. Im Canadian, now a permanent US resident for about 5 years. One of my good friends ( (canadian ), has a 12 year old DUI, and he is not allowed to enter the US due to this. He now, can hire a lawyer, yearly, pay a 800.00 waiver fee and US Immigration will consider his request. Pretty crazy, great revenue generator.
    It's also YMMV.

    I have a relative who has a decades old conviction for fraud. He was long ago pardoned. Despite this, he did admit the prior conviction to CBP when asked. He applied for, and was granted, a NEXUS pass. He crosses back and forth freely. No waiver needed.

  17. #67

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    Detroiters should get special consideration for dual citizenship in Canada, and Windsor folk should get the same.

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