Hudson's Site Building Thread

**motorcity** · December-11-20, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by djtomt

Finances always dictate construction. I'm guessing that's happening here. An article in today's paper says they don't have any tenants lined up or something to that effect. Probably want to sign some leases or LOI's before pushing ahead.

That said, those who express skepticism have a valid viewpoint. Comparison to other cities does make sense in this instance. Chicago can get things like this done quickly. Toronto puts up a skyscraper seemingly every other day. Something is very wrong with the process in Detroit that a building like this, and pretty much every development for that matter, takes so damn long. The process DEFINITELY needs examination and a thorough revamp.

It's not just Chicago, even population 700k Nashville has built dozens of 20, 30 and 40-story new buildings since 2015. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_Nashville

I'm just so over the years of excuses and disinformation. The new articles this week are filled with more of the same stalling we've heard for years, saying don't expect to see steel up until next summer.

**Dexlin** · December-11-20, 02:45 PM

Quiet, grown folks are speaking.

https://twitter.com/detroitnews/stat...34971712204806

**Gistok** · December-11-20, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

The process isn't a problem. Buildings are constructed in Detroit the same way they are in other cities.

As someone alluded to earlier [[but stopped just short of saying outright), the problem is Detroit itself and with the very few [[generally cash poor or inexperienced) developers it can attract.

Did you say cash poor or inexperienced? Do you really think that is the issue here.... really??

Daniel Gilbert is an American billionaire businessman, investor, and philanthropist. He is the cofounder of Quicken Loans and founder of Rock Ventures. He is the owner of the National Basketball Association's Cleveland Cavaliers. Wikipedia

Born: January 17, 1962 [[age 58 years), Detroit, MI

Height: 5′ 6″

Nationality: American

Net worth: 44.3 billion USD [[2020) Forbes

**313WX** · December-11-20, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Did you say cash poor or inexperienced? Do you really think that is the issue here.... really??

Daniel Gilbert is an American billionaire businessman, investor, and philanthropist. He is the cofounder of Quicken Loans and founder of Rock Ventures. He is the owner of the National Basketball Association's Cleveland Cavaliers. Wikipedia

Born: January 17, 1962 [[age 58 years), Detroit, MI

Height: 5′ 6″

Nationality: American

Net worth: 44.3 billion USD [[2020) Forbes

Last I checked, Gilbert hadn't built a single skyscraper before the Hudson site, let alone one as tall as he claims this one will be.

That probably, in part, explains why the project has been moving so slowly.

**Satiricalivory** · December-11-20, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by JonWylie

I don't understand why you think a comparison to Chicago holds any weight. Chicago and Detroit are vastly different cities, when Chicago builds a skyscraper, its because they actually need every foot of building for offices or residential, and it's often pre-leased. From the get-go everyone was under the impression that the Hudson project was supposed to be a statement project, because if you were just going for the most economic building, there's plenty of empty land to build 5/6 story buildings on.

I mean this applies to Chicago too, and these cities aren't that vastly different either. Chicago has plenty of empty land in the south and west sides, a bigger area than all of Detroit. But that isn't how skyscraper development works, office tenants and hotels want to be in a central core so it's not really any different in Detroit, which has had lower vacancy rates than Chicago. Detroit definitely needs the space. And dont kid yourself, plenty of what gets built in Chicago is due to ego and to attract investors just like Hudson site.

Pretty much everything in Chicago [[including the example) gets built with parking podiums so that's another reason why construction would be faster. Bedrock is obviously aiming for better urbanism than that and the kind of mixed use good formed development they build is something that 95% of developers in this country aren't even willing to do or don't have the skills to do.

**motorcity** · December-11-20, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

Quiet, grown folks are speaking.

https://twitter.com/detroitnews/stat...34971712204806

So 13 years after getting the property for free and 36 months after groundbreaking we have a still in progress underground parking garage at Hudson's Square? Here's the very similar One Chicago Square 3 years after $110M land sale and 18 months after groundbreaking:

**motorcity** · December-11-20, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Last I checked, Gilbert hadn't built a single skyscraper before the Hudson site, let alone one as tall as he claims this one will be.

That probably, in part, explains why the project has been moving so slowly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the largest new structure Gilbert/Bedrock have built is the 10-story Z-Lot parking garage about 7 years ago.

**EGrant** · December-11-20, 07:51 PM

Wow another photo of One Chicago Square... How edgy.

**Seven&wyo** · December-11-20, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by motorcity

So 13 years after getting the property for free and 36 months after groundbreaking we have a still in progress underground parking garage at Hudson's Square? Here's the very similar One Chicago Square 3 years after $110M land sale and 18 months after groundbreaking:

Is there a time table to you shutting the fuck up?

**NSortzi** · December-12-20, 01:11 AM

I don’t understand why you guys still try to reason with motorcity. He’s here either to troll you [[which you’re feeding with your replies) or because he truly, wholeheartedly believes what he says. Either way there’s obviously no point in trying to provide facts to change his mind.

I’m also disappointed with the lack of moderation done on Dyes. On another website on which I am a moderator a user who I believe to be the same person as motorcity was banned today and all posts were deleted. The same thing needs to be done here so this thread can return to an actual productive conversation without the same misleading baseless claims.

**bigboat** · December-12-20, 05:28 AM

One question for all of the experts on this comment section. Does anyone know why the large 9' diameter caissons are not included in the reinforced rebar for the base of the tower portion of this development. They have been working on the construction of the rebar for a couple of months, but I find it unusual that the large caissons are not included. Anyone have an accurate answer without too much speculation.

**401don** · December-12-20, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Did you say cash poor or inexperienced? Do you really think that is the issue here.... really??

Daniel Gilbert is an American billionaire businessman, investor, and philanthropist. He is the cofounder of Quicken Loans and founder of Rock Ventures. He is the owner of the National Basketball Association's Cleveland Cavaliers. Wikipedia

Born: January 17, 1962 [[age 58 years), Detroit, MI

Height: 5′ 6″

Nationality: American

Net worth: 44.3 billion USD [[2020) Forbes

I was sure that 44 billion was a typo. So Gilbert's net worth has basically increased almost 10 fold since the IPO? Sounds like Forbes, and others, didn't do a very good job of calculating the value of Quicken Loans when calculating Gilbert's worth when it was a private company. It didn't jump that much after the IPO.

**ct_alum** · December-12-20, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by NSortzi

I don’t understand why you guys still try to reason with motorcity. He’s here either to troll you [[which you’re feeding with your replies) or because he truly, wholeheartedly believes what he says. Either way there’s obviously no point in trying to provide facts to change his mind.

I’m also disappointed with the lack of moderation done on Dyes. On another website on which I am a moderator a user who I believe to be the same person as motorcity was banned today and all posts were deleted. The same thing needs to be done here so this thread can return to an actual productive conversation without the same misleading baseless claims.

+1. Notice how he/she always mentions that Gilbert got "free land" and that in Chicago there is always a "land sale"? One suspects that he/she is a shill for somebody who thought they should have gotten the land. If he/she was truly from the motor city as the screen name implies, they would be happy that something other than the concrete slab with beams sticking up that was there for years is starting to happen, however slowly.

**Warrenite84** · December-12-20, 04:39 PM

I think he is waiting for how the economy and office requirements will level out at post Wuhan Virus. If things return to normal and the economy heats up, maybe a taller tower would be built. The foundation is engineered for it.

I'll admit I would sure like to see that observation deck happen...

**Dmberko11** · December-12-20, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by Warrenite84

I think he is waiting for how the economy and office requirements will level out at post Wuhan Virus. If things return to normal and the economy heats up, maybe a taller tower would be built. The foundation is engineered for it.

I'll admit I would sure like to see that observation deck happen...

Probably. I wouldn't mind delaying my gratification for a taller tower. What's another year or two? This is a once in a generation project for detroit

**motorcity** · December-12-20, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by ct_alum

+1. Notice how he/she always mentions that Gilbert got "free land" and that in Chicago there is always a "land sale"? One suspects that he/she is a shill for somebody who thought they should have gotten the land. If he/she was truly from the motor city as the screen name implies, they would be happy that something other than the concrete slab with beams sticking up that was there for years is starting to happen, however slowly.

It's she. And since this was both a land and incentive giveaway, the public has a right to be informed and we have a right to voice frustration with grandiose hot air that is not coming to fruition. Folks should know this is not a "normal" pace for a project of this magnitude.

Hudson's vs. One Chicago Square
Land cost: $0 vs. $110 million
Public incentives: up to $1 billion vs. $0
Years in the making: 14 vs. 3
Months since groundbreaking: 36 vs. 18
Stories in the air December 2020: 0 vs. 50
Crew size: 80 vs. hundreds

**Scottathew** · December-12-20, 08:56 PM

Let they naysayers do the naysaying.

For the rest of us, we can sit back and watch this massive concrete pour.

**motorcity** · December-12-20, 09:07 PM

Is the Gilbert-friendly Detroit Free Press included in the naysayer bucket? Last year, long before Corona and work from home being the new normal, they printed the Hudson's plans were:

...too expensive, speculative and grandiose, and that Bedrock has been unable to pre-lease significant amounts of space. Without signed lease agreements with credit-worthy retailers and office tenants for a portion of the space, experts say lenders will not bankroll such a project. “Without an anchor tenant, what bank is going to finance a project like that? If you build it and they will come, it doesn’t work that way anymore.”

https://www.freep.com/in-depth/news/...ts/2207973001/

**motorcity** · December-12-20, 09:14 PM

My prediction is a high-tech underground and stylistic above ground parking garage with at least ground-level retail -- or like the first pic below, parking deck connected to a modest mixed use building. They'll spin that the empty space remaining is prepped for a skyscraper when the market bounces back after Covid-19.

**EGrant** · December-13-20, 12:30 AM

Agree with NSortzi. This thread stinks. Most people just come here for updates, photos and general chatter around an interesting building, and not to read a thread cluttered by a troll bizarrely bringing up "ONE CHICAGO SQUARE" ad nauseum.

**motorcity** · December-13-20, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by EGrant

Agree with NSortzi. This thread stinks. Most people just come here for updates, photos and general chatter around an interesting building, and not to read a thread cluttered by a troll bizarrely bringing up "ONE CHICAGO SQUARE" ad nauseum.

Not trolling, critical thinking. The contractor just told the local press no steel is going up for at least 6 months, so there's really nothing of substance to talk about.

One Chicago Square is relevant because both of the projects are so similar -- in progress, large downtown blocks, skyscraper wedded to a shorter podium building. Here are the two projects' original renderings:

**Dexlin** · December-13-20, 09:34 PM

S t f u.

**Satiricalivory** · December-13-20, 09:39 PM

lol that parking garage post was peak trolling if I've ever seen it.

I'm sure he already has his alt account ready to fire.

**Dmberko11** · December-13-20, 11:19 PM

https://youtu.be/m8_xgCzVKio
Ok, a distraction from the stupid trolling and garbage. Who gives a crap about chicago. Detroit has such a beautiful downtown. This is decent 4K drone footage. Do yourself a favor and enjoy. It's choice.

**JTburner** · December-14-20, 12:50 PM

In the interview linked below, new bedrock CEO says "within the next six months, it will be well above pavement level." Sounds like it was a misunderstanding to think steel will only start coming on site this summer

https://www.crainsdetroit.com/qa/new...-francisco-313