Hudson's Site Building Thread

**Satiricalivory** · June-29-20, 07:05 PM

They could have easily just added more condos or apartments. People have done a lot more crazy things with building speculation.

**Dmberko11** · June-29-20, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

They could have easily just added more condos or apartments. People have done a lot more crazy things with building speculation.

I don’t think Gilbert is into speculative projects [[taking a gamble) as much as we think he is. He sold greektown casino after all, no? 😉

**EGrant** · June-29-20, 09:30 PM

In the 2,000 posts on this thread, I think it was discussed somewhere about how the previous height had a different setup that could be cost prohibitive. A lot of the "lost" height was the hotel space/observation deck above the residential section at the very top, which would require a separate elevator from the one that residential tenants would use. Without the hotel operator to justify the cost of the additional floors and elevator, the cost/height becomes inefficient. The current setup [[according to the Dec. 3 Annual Update Meeting) has the hotel on the bottom half, and the residential portion on top.

Could they add more floors of residential? Maybe? I'm not an engineer, but I do know that building height is a lot more complex than simply adding some stories for the vanity of having the tallest building in Detroit, especially if the financials don't work out, despite the dismay of random Youtube commenters losing interest.

**313rd** · June-30-20, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

I'm a little confused. I've never heard of such a thing. What are some examples that are already built?

DTE just built a Central Energy Plant on the Ford Campus in Dearborn.

https://dtepowerandindustrial.com/pr...-construction/

**313rd** · June-30-20, 05:25 AM

It could possibly be that the height of the tower was reduced, because of the design change and incorporation of the Central Energy Plant. The original plan may have incorporated many floors of Interstitial space, which are floors that are an accessible space above the ceiling plane with a floor for access and a low vertical height to accomplish a horizontal distribution of MEP systems.

**Jimaz** · June-30-20, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by 313rd

...The original plan may have incorporated many floors of Interstitial space, which are floors that are an accessible space above the ceiling plane with a floor for access and a low vertical height to accomplish a horizontal distribution of MEP systems.

Serious question: Was that the originally intended purpose of floor number 7½ in the movie Being John Malkovich?

Being John Malkovich [[1/11) Movie CLIP - Welcome to the 7 1/2 Floor [[1999)

That was one weird movie.

Edit - Found this:

Being John Malkovich: Architecture of the 7½ Floor

**Atticus** · June-30-20, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by EGrant

In the 2,000 posts on this thread, I think it was discussed somewhere about how the previous height had a different setup that could be cost prohibitive. A lot of the "lost" height was the hotel space/observation deck above the residential section at the very top, which would require a separate elevator from the one that residential tenants would use. Without the hotel operator to justify the cost of the additional floors and elevator, the cost/height becomes inefficient. The current setup [[according to the Dec. 3 Annual Update Meeting) has the hotel on the bottom half, and the residential portion on top.

Could they add more floors of residential? Maybe? I'm not an engineer, but I do know that building height is a lot more complex than simply adding some stories for the vanity of having the tallest building in Detroit, especially if the financials don't work out, despite the dismay of random Youtube commenters losing interest.

As I understood it, there were two main reasons for the height drops. The first drop from 912’ to the ~800’ range was due to the elimination of the sky deck. And while it was unknown what that skydeck would have included, essentially it was height dedicated to an observation deck, top of the building restaurant, some gift shops, activities, etc.

The second drop, from the ~800’ range to the current 680’ is attributed to the elimination of the “second hotel”, down to a single hotel. The original plan called for the tower to contain two hotels, of around 300 rooms each. This has been done in other cities where two hotels of the same chain double up, and realize the cost savings of a shared staff for things like maintenance, housekeeping, administrative, etc. So for example, one building would host both a JW Marriott and Ritz Carlton, or Hilton and Waldorf Astoria. This allows the hotel to dual market, where both the Ritz clientele and JW Marriott clientele each can be marketed to in the sand location. When one of the “two hotels” was eliminated in favor of a single hotel brand, the second 300 rooms of height was also eliminated this bringing the height down to 680’.

**Satiricalivory** · June-30-20, 02:13 PM

I feel like an observation deck never made sense anyway. What building with residential units has an observation deck? [[although there is the John Hancock Center) That stuff is usually done in office buildings. I imagine that would be really annoying to deal with and would significantly reduce the value of the condos.

The Penobscot building would be a great outdoor observation deck again if it wasn't owned by a horrible person.

**Gistok** · June-30-20, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

I feel like an observation deck never made sense anyway. What building with residential units has an observation deck? [[although there is the John Hancock Center) That stuff is usually done in office buildings. I imagine that would be really annoying to deal with and would significantly reduce the value of the condos.

When the tower was increased to 912ft., the observation deck was eliminated, due to the reason that an observation deck needs a dedicated express elevator. At 912ft. all elevators were needed for the different floors, and the express to the top had to be eliminated to handle local floor traffic.

I don't see how an observation deck would affect condo values? All windows are sealed anyway on all floors. Even if the observation deck had an outside area... it still doesn't explain the impact it might have on hotel/condos. A busier lobby perhaps... but that would happen even if 1 or 2 hotels were part of the complex. It seems likely that condo and hotel elevators would be separate from each other.

But lobby activity should not impact condo values.

**Satiricalivory** · June-30-20, 05:10 PM

I personally would not want to live in a building that random people were constantly funneling in and out of. idk maybe I'm wrong.

**Gistok** · June-30-20, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

I personally would not want to live in a building that random people were constantly funneling in and out of. idk maybe I'm wrong.

I can understand your feeling that way, but there will also be hotel patrons in that building as well. With such a small footprint, I can't figure out how they can separate the condo vs. hotel guests entering the building on the same level? Unless there is an escalator upon entering to separate the hotel guests from the condo owners to 2 different floors.

**EGrant** · June-30-20, 05:59 PM

I'd imagine there'd be two entrances; the hotel will have a large lobby, and the condos will have a smaller one.

**Satiricalivory** · July-01-20, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I can understand your feeling that way, but there will also be hotel patrons in that building as well. With such a small footprint, I can't figure out how they can separate the condo vs. hotel guests entering the building on the same level? Unless there is an escalator upon entering to separate the hotel guests from the condo owners to 2 different floors.

Hotel customers are different. The hotel has their information and they're kinda living there for a short period. That's just how I feel about it.

**Scottathew** · July-01-20, 12:11 PM

Every building that I've been in that has an observation deck has a dedicated elevator for it. People go from the lobby, to the elevator, to the observation deck, and then leave in reverse order.

Chicago:
Willis Tower
Hancock Tower

New York:
Empire State Building
One World Trade Center [[the current one)

All four had dedicated elevators for observation. So I don't think having random people in the building due to an observation deck is really a concern.

However, I don't think there's demand for an observation deck. Detroit is coming back. We're seeing all sorts of renovation and even new buildings. However, we're not much of a tourist destination. I could see it work out if it was a restaurant at the top. I think it would do much better than the one at the top of the RenCen due to the location and not being on an island, in a fortress, with a maze for hallways.

**Satiricalivory** · July-01-20, 12:21 PM

I'm sorry but I have to laugh at that idea. There is definitely demand, it would be the only observation deck in a metro region of 5 million and Detroit has gotten large increases in tourism lately, it would also attract tourists.

**Scottathew** · July-01-20, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

I'm sorry but I have to laugh at that idea. There is definitely demand, it would be the only observation deck in a metro region of 5 million and Detroit has gotten large increases in tourism lately, it would also attract tourists.

I work in Downtown Detroit and I've traveled to quite a few places [[New York, Boston, Toronto, Montreal, Chicago, Las Vegas, Dallas, Orlando, D.C., Chattanooga, Savannah, Charleston, and various east coast beach towns). I would LOVE to be wrong, but I simply don't feel Detroit has a significant enough tourism industry. Unfortunately to many a trip to downtown Detroit from the suburbs would be akin to tourism.

But perhaps I'm wrong. Or perhaps I'm right but will be wrong in 5-10 years. At that point it would be too late to put an observation deck in.

**401don** · July-01-20, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

it would also attract tourists.

So tourists would come to Detroit to go up a 60 story building?

**Satiricalivory** · July-01-20, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by 401don

So tourists would come to Detroit to go up a 60 story building?

Uhh yeah, I mean it's just a general tourist thing to do along with other things that attract tourists. It all kinda comes together.

**Dmberko11** · July-01-20, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by 48307

I work in Downtown Detroit and I've traveled to quite a few places [[New York, Boston, Toronto, Montreal, Chicago, Las Vegas, Dallas, Orlando, D.C., Chattanooga, Savannah, Charleston, and various east coast beach towns). I would LOVE to be wrong, but I simply don't feel Detroit has a significant enough tourism industry. Unfortunately to many a trip to downtown Detroit from the suburbs would be akin to tourism.

But perhaps I'm wrong. Or perhaps I'm right but will be wrong in 5-10 years. At that point it would be too late to put an observation deck in.

Thanks for your honesty. I feel the same about Detroit. Grew up in the suburbs and have had a chance to see the country and yeah. Detroit ain’t no tourist trap, that’s for sure. It doesn’t need to be. That being said I think their hotels have been able to do well for a rustbelt city.

**Satiricalivory** · July-01-20, 05:09 PM

Detroit's booming tourism industry is attracting millions from around the world

The Detroit Metro Visitor and Convention Bureau says there were 14 million visitors to the area in 2013, and that number jumped to 19 million visitors in 2016...

The Detroit Metro Convention and Visitors Bureau’s latest data shows the number of people visiting Detroit from other countries has more than doubled in three years.
In 2013 there were 1,260,000 international visitors, in 2016 there were 2,660,000 international visitors. That’s a 111 percent increase.
There were people from New Zealand, Russia, Germany and Iraq on my tour which began with Detroit’s rich history. Literally.

https://www.wxyz.com/news/detroits-booming-tourism-industry-is-attracting-millions-from-around-the-world

**Scottathew** · July-01-20, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Satiricalivory

Detroit's booming tourism industry is attracting millions from around the world

https://www.wxyz.com/news/detroits-booming-tourism-industry-is-attracting-millions-from-around-the-world

Hopefully your evidence means I'm wrong and I just don't see it locked up in my office building all day long! Thanks for linking.

**Dexlin** · July-01-20, 10:16 PM

Bedrock clearly hasn't put out enough information, if you guys are arguing over something that's not even going to be in the building, anymore. lol This is ridiculous.

You want a 360-degree view of Detroit? Place a reservation at one of the restaurants at the top of the RenCen, grab a drink at one of the bars, or sneak up there like everyone else used to do.

**Scottathew** · July-02-20, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

you guys are arguing over something that's not even going to be in the building, anymore.

I would call it a friendly conversation about whether an observation deck is warranted

**401don** · July-02-20, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Dexlin

Bedrock clearly hasn't put out enough information, if you guys are arguing over something that's not even going to be in the building, anymore. lol This is ridiculous.

What else is there to do while waiting for the crane?