Hudson's Site Building Thread

[Satiricalivory]

I was going to save my criticisms for after it opened, but, since its on the floor, aesthetically, this building is pretty bad.

As stated above, it looks like they went back to 1970's New York, picked out an ugly office building, and brought it back to 2020's Detroit.

And then they covered all of the windows in dust and debris!

1953

You guys are entitled to your wrong opinions I guess.

Ain't nothing in the 70's that was built with expensive terracotta facades. Delusional.

[rbdetsport]

Look at the left vs right [preferred]
Attachment 42814

I could not ever imagine thinking that the right is better than the left.. the terra-cotta columns are a great addition to this building.

In terms of what it would have looked like without the height reduction though, I do agree on that. This design would have looked so much better and more dramatic with its detail with the full-planned height. My disappointment has only been one-upped by the debacle that is the new Monroe Blocks design compared to the SHL design. Together, with the height reduction [[and thus, change in design) and the complete 180 turn on the Monroe Blocks design, I wish we could revert back to all the hope that came with 2018 in Detroit.

[stasu1213]

I gotta agree completely. The Ally Tower is Post Modern. Some Post Modern buildings look silly, so Detroit was lucky in getting among the nicest of that design in the Ally Tower. It has a skin made mostly of granite with glass. Just glass alone makes for a poor substitute for architecture.

The Brutalist building era pretty much passed Detroit by, although we do have the McNamara Federal Building.

Even Minuru Yamasaki's buildings have hits and misses. His office towers just don't have the classy details of his smaller works. Some of his WSU designs are beautiful.

The World Trade Centers were Yamasaki's best work

[stasu1213]

Look at the left vs right [preferred]
Attachment 42814

I guess the front is that color to go along with the street scape along the Woodward strip

[Gistok]

The World Trade Centers were Yamasaki's best work

Had you ever visited them back in the day from across the Hudson River viewing them from New Jersey? They looked windowless from there. It may have been his largest and most famous commission, but from across the river they didn't live up to the hype we associate with them today.

https://www.loc.gov/resource/vrg.00451/

They did look better from up close though.

[Gistok]

You guys are entitled to your wrong opinions I guess.

Ain't nothing in the 70's that was built with expensive terracotta facades. Delusional.

Being a Newbie, only on this forum for 3 years, the concept of "other opinions" still doesn't come easy to you, does it?

[stasu1213]

Had you ever visited them back in the day from across the Hudson River viewing them from New Jersey? They looked windowless from there. It may have been his largest and most famous commission, but from across the river they didn't live up to the hype we associate with them today.

https://www.loc.gov/resource/vrg.00451/

They did look better from up close though.

The building's were iconic even from a distance. They may had looked windowless but they were imposing and they commanded attention. The idea came from the Michigan Consolidated Gas Company building that stand on the foot of Woodward and Jefferson.

[Scottathew]

I could not ever imagine thinking that the right is better than the left.. the terra-cotta columns are a great addition to this building.

To me the left side looks good, but the right side is much "sexier".

It's nice to hear the some people prefer the left side, as that will be the more prominent side.

[Gistok]

The building's were iconic even from a distance. They may had looked windowless but they were imposing and they commanded attention. The idea came from the Michigan Consolidated Gas Company building that stand on the foot of Woodward and Jefferson.

Yes they were imposing, as the tallest buildings in all of NYC. But as to the way they looked from a distance... you had to be there...

[angry_fred]

Has anyone heard anything at all about possible block building open dates or site tenants [[other than the edition hotel leak a while back)

[Dmberko11]

Being a Newbie, only on this forum for 3 years, the concept of "other opinions" still doesn't come easy to you, does it?

haaa.
He's special

[Satiricalivory]

Being a Newbie, only on this forum for 3 years, the concept of "other opinions" still doesn't come easy to you, does it?

Nobody cares.

[ShadowSoarer]

Update as of 9/22:

[bailey]

Has anyone heard anything at all about possible block building open dates or site tenants [[other than the edition hotel leak a while back)

There aren't any concrete plans and and there wont be anytime soon. Inside Rocket there are these things called "isms" that the organization lives by. One of them is "you'll see it when you believe it". It's basically wish casting. Bedrock can run its business by wish casting as its bottom line is tied to the wealth of a few individuals and not actual market forces.

I love what Dan has done in the city and the plans for Cleveland. I love that he went all in on the "Build it and they will come" bets and isn't skimping on anything. Be nice if Olympia took HALF the risks of what Dan's taken with these investments. However, look around the empty floors and some almost entirely empty buildings in the Bedrock portfolio [[and the CBD generally) and you can easily see there is zero demand for this building.

But, inside Rocket they "believe" there will be a turn around in the premium commercial real estate sector in Detroit... in an era of commercial real estate melting down as more and more companies seek to shrink their physical foot prints

They "believe" there will be a market for 950 sqft high rise condos at $850k+ in an era of interest rates at 20 yr highs and region where incomes don't support that price point.

They "believe" they will recreate the urban destination shopping mall in an area that is a retail ghost town in the era of the dead mall.

They have no actual plan, tenant commitments or data to back any of those beliefs up other than sepia toned photos of what Woodward looked like in the 40s and 50s....and recycling rumors of apple stores and cheescake factories The fantasy land that the organization lives in on this stuff is one of the reasons why they had so much difficulty in attracting a hotel operator.

This tower will be a very pretty, very empty building for a very long time.... and The Block portion will be GM winter garden 2.0.

But, a Potemkin village is better than no village at all.

[stasu1213]

There aren't any concrete plans and and there wont be anytime soon. Inside Rocket there are these things called "isms" that the organization lives by. One of them is "you'll see it when you believe it". It's basically wish casting. Bedrock can run its business by wish casting as its bottom line is tied to the wealth of a few individuals and not actual market forces.

I love what Dan has done in the city and the plans for Cleveland. I love that he went all in on the "Build it and they will come" bets and isn't skimping on anything. Be nice if Olympia took HALF the risks of what Dan's taken with these investments. However, look around the empty floors and some almost entirely empty buildings in the Bedrock portfolio [[and the CBD generally) and you can easily see there is zero demand for this building.

But, inside Rocket they "believe" there will be a turn around in the premium commercial real estate sector in Detroit... in an era of commercial real estate melting down as more and more companies seek to shrink their physical foot prints

They "believe" there will be a market for 950 sqft high rise condos at $850k+ in an era of interest rates at 20 yr highs and region where incomes don't support that price point.

They "believe" they will recreate the urban destination shopping mall in an area that is a retail ghost town in the era of the dead mall.

They have no actual plan, tenant commitments or data to back any of those beliefs up other than sepia toned photos of what Woodward looked like in the 40s and 50s....and recycling rumors of apple stores and cheescake factories The fantasy land that the organization lives in on this stuff is one of the reasons why they had so much difficulty in attracting a hotel operator.

This tower will be a very pretty, very empty building for a very long time.... and The Block portion will be GM winter garden 2.0.

But, a Potemkin village is better than no village at all.

I agree that Gilbert was ballsy in using the Build it and they will come concept in a city where no other investors wanted to take a chance. Reading blogs and comments and listening to comments from the local radio shows that aired in Detroit over that past 10 years I discovered that there is a push against downtown developments and for grass roots growth. This push probably had something to do with the slow developments and empty storefronts in the new developments in the downtown midtown areas. I am support of many things Gilbert had done and is doing for Detroit. I dont think that the concentration should be focused on building taller buildings but to build outward with midrise and lowrise buildings. There also need to be a focus on building mixed culture mixed income neighborhoods with strict ordinances in place for those neighborhoods. The Block portion on the Hudson site will be more successful having retail and restaurants in it than the Winter Gardens were in the RenCen. The Winter Gardens is isolated to the back of the RenCen where lighter foot traffic is especially during after business hours and on weekends. The Block is on a heavy foot traffic area and if the right retail is allowed to open in the building would have more support for the stores inside.

[Jason]

Bedrock's Detroit Free Press Building has 100 units and only ten are available right now [[normal for an apartment building). Book Tower has over 200 units and only 80 are left, and the building just opened.

A different group is developing a 500 unit luxury highrise on the Joe Louis Arena site without any subsidy. As fast as new residential buildings are opening new ones are being announced. The Exchange, which is the non-Bedrock project with the super expensive small condos, has 7 condos left, out of 12, and the building is still under construction.

There's currently more leased office space downtown than there was before the pandemic. Downtown/New Center vacancy is around 17%, which is significantly better than other downtowns across the country. An office building was announced post pandemic at the Joe Louis Arena site, but hasn't started construction yet.

Demand for hotel space downtown has been strong for years. The Cambria Hotel recently opened, and the midrise hotel near Mack and Woodward just recently broke ground. Other than a few small boutique hotels there aren't any high end hotels downtown. Hudsons will likely be the best hotel in metro Detroit.

[gratiotfaced]

I think the Joe Louis site is getting that 600-800 room hotel connecting to Huntington Place instead. I haven't heard mention of an office there in a few years.

Something like >50% of downtown office vacancy is just inside the Ren Cen, meaning the other half is spread across the rest of downtown. I don't know if the Hudson's Block will fill up, but if there's any demand at all for office space, it's going to be for brand new Class A.

The residential and hotel components will fill in. There's a reason that hotels and apartment building construction has remained strong downtown, despite the pandemic effects.

Frankly, the only component I'd be worried about is retail. There's still plenty of vacant storefronts downtown. Apple Store was on the brink of announcing, what, six months ago? How's the Target in Midtown going? We're going to struggle to hold a strong retail scene without more residential density first.

I do agree that Gilbert should have spread the development around more. Two towers [[Hudson's/Monroe Block) are nice and all, but we really need like a dozen more midrises filling in parking lots before that can make sense. I liked his 28 Grand development, filling in a lot in a prime neighborhood. Shame he hasn't built a few more of those in the years since, especially with residential demand remaining steady.

[Scottathew]

New video!

Top of the core is floor 42
Top of poured floor is about floor 36

[stasu1213]

I think the Joe Louis site is getting that 600-800 room hotel connecting to Huntington Place instead. I haven't heard mention of an office there in a few years.

Something like >50% of downtown office vacancy is just inside the Ren Cen, meaning the other half is spread across the rest of downtown. I don't know if the Hudson's Block will fill up, but if there's any demand at all for office space, it's going to be for brand new Class A.

The residential and hotel components will fill in. There's a reason that hotels and apartment building construction has remained strong downtown, despite the pandemic effects.

Frankly, the only component I'd be worried about is retail. There's still plenty of vacant storefronts downtown. Apple Store was on the brink of announcing, what, six months ago? How's the Target in Midtown going? We're going to struggle to hold a strong retail scene without more residential density first.

I do agree that Gilbert should have spread the development around more. Two towers [[Hudson's/Monroe Block) are nice and all, but we really need like a dozen more midrises filling in parking lots before that can make sense. I liked his 28 Grand development, filling in a lot in a prime neighborhood. Shame he hasn't built a few more of those in the years since, especially with residential demand remaining steady.

The lack of residential density hasn't anything to do with Target not being downtown nor probably Apple. Poor planning and development has a lot to do with retail such as Target not being open by now in the midtown area. Target has to wait a development to be completed that it was designed to be attached to. Only in Detroit. Why do so many developments in the downtown midtown areas have so many empty storefronts? The density to support retail is there. There need to be retail allowed to open in these storefronts that will draw out shoppers. More shoppers comes out Nike, Carhartt, H&M, Warby Parker, and LipBar with bags in their hands because those stores are reasonable in price and drawn shoppers from all backgrounds. Staples had done that on East Jefferson before it shuddered its door to make way for Gordon Foods. Are stipulations are being forced upon potential retailers whom wanted to opens stores in Detroit but opted out?I am not going to blame it on lack of density of residents in downtown Detroit

[stasu1213]

New video!

Top of the core is floor 42
Top of poured floor is about floor 36

It might top off by the end of the year

[angry_fred]

It might top off by the end of the year

Here is a diagram that seems to be accurate.



Level 37 is the first setback on the Woodward side, and it appears they are now framing in level 38 based on the latest drone video. They typically slow down when they reach a setback and for cold, but if the fall gives us good weather i would agree that this thing should top out by the end of the year

[1953]

You guys are entitled to your wrong opinions I guess.

Ain't nothing in the 70's that was built with expensive terracotta facades. Delusional.

When you look at the new building, you see terra cotta as the predominant feature? That's interesting. All I see is glass.

1953

[Gistok]

And to the "non-delusional" among us... nothing in the 70s was built with terra cotta... ditto for the 60s, and 50s. Terra cotta fell out of favor by 1940.

[mkd]

I still don't get why they can't throw a 100-ft spire on this thing and call it the new tallest in Detroit. 1WTC is officially 1,776ft but only 1,268ft at top floor.

[401don]

I still don't get why they can't throw a 100-ft spire on this thing and call it the new tallest in Detroit. 1WTC is officially 1,776ft but only 1,268ft at top floor.

If Dan was building this for some sort of ego trip maybe he would have but thankfully that's not the case and he would have been criticized for doing it anyway.