Defend Planned Parenthood Saturday Feb. 11

[canuck]

Is Planned Parenthood somehow related to Planet Hollywood? I always wondered about that.

[Zacha341]

Speaking of such: Norma McCorvey, ‘Roe’ in Roe v. Wade, Is Dead at 69

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/18/o...wade.html?_r=0

From article...

Ms. McCorvey gave up her children at birth [she did not have an abortion] and was a cleaning woman, waitress and carnival worker. Bisexual but primarily lesbian, she sought refuge from poverty and dead-end jobs in alcohol and drugs.

She was 22 and pregnant when she joined the abortion rights struggle, claiming later that she had not really understood what it was all about. When she emerged from anonymity a decade later, strangers shrieked “baby killer” and spat at her. There were death threats. One night, shotgun blasts shattered the windows of her home.

But she attended rallies and protest marches in support of abortion rights, worked in women’s clinics, spoke to crowds, wrote two autobiographies and was the subject of a documentary and an avalanche of newspaper and magazine articles. She became a national celebrity of sorts.

She also switched sides, from abortion rights advocate to anti-abortion campaigner. She underwent two religious conversions, as a born-again Christian and as a Roman Catholic, and became in her last decades a staunch foe of abortion, vowing to undo Roe v. Wade, testifying in Congress and bitterly attacking Barack Obama when he ran for president and then re-election.

She was never the idealized Jane Roe crusader many Americans visualized....

A complete turnaround

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-19/norma-mccorvey-plaintiff-in-roe-v-wade-dies-aged-69/8283978

PHOTO: Norma McCorvey [[L) and her attorney Gloria Allred leave the Supreme Court building after sitting in on another case [[AP: J Scott)

After the court's ruling, Ms McCorvey lived quietly for several years before revealing herself as Jane Roe in the 1980s. She also confessed to lying when she said the pregnancy was the result of rape.

[Zacha341]

Perhaps her credibility is questionable, but she's not alone in turning away from the abortion industry after having worked in it [[Bernard Nathanson was one of the first).
The cases and experiences exist, with more going public, and not solely associated with repubs, far right, or 'Fox-s'news'.

On this side of roe vs. wade [[1973), for example, the disproportionate number of black pregnancies ending in abortion demands a new discussion and subsequent narrative re. the FULL legacy of abortion.

That dialog cannot and won't be silenced specific to the unintended and arguably intended consequences of abortion as birth control in the US. Socially and politically.

Further, the challenge to evaluate what abortion really means [[individually and collectively) can't be boxed into the conveniently dismissible rubric of conservative politics! They do NOT own and should not own the opinion or reality on the subject, relative to questioning abortion.

Yeah,she worked for PP for 17 yrs and then got fired, filed a lawsuit against them for Medicare fraud, lost the law suit and suddenly became a convert to the anti abortion cause. She's just FULL of credibility.

[Zacha341]

Nope, collectively I am certain it will not stop, but some are individually 'STOPPING' [[that is to say making other choices proactively and reactively) as the numbers of abortions have become staggering to a tipping point.

Abortion numbers are down for many reasons, perhaps in some cases more to the numbers related to rape of which the much of the narrative and subsequent ruling [[roe vs. wade) was built upon.

Setting aside the whole PP debate, once I learned about the disproportionate abortion numbers in the black community and the Margaret Sanger connection, I began to question abortion used as birth control and the social/ political ramifications.

Post 1973, new studies and facts abound re. the existential reasoning for abortion, fetal development, racial equivalences re. abortion, abortion politics related to monetary interests, the physiological, physical and psychic consequences.

These are factors before you need even mention the construct of morality, religion or the right-wing as it were, of which so many feel criticism exists, solely.

More information now is now available - increasingly so over the last ten years! We're well beyond the attempt of over-simplification: 'blob of tissue' meme and rhetoric.

The dam's broke and more information will continue to be disbursed, impacting the number of abortions. Who is arguing for more of them?

If it's outlawed do you think it will stop?

[Shai_Hulud]

Setting aside the whole PP debate, once I learned about the disproportionate abortion numbers in the black community and the Margaret Sanger connection, I began to question abortion used as birth control and the social/ political ramifications.

Bad faith argument.

Yes, the abortion rate for black women is 4x that for white women. The poverty rate for black women is also 3x that of white women. These are not unrelated.

Yet, the right supports anti-choice legislation while viciously attacking anti-poverty legislation. It's the height of hypocrisy.

Higher minimum wage, contraceptive access, sex education, housing assistance, criminal justice reform, all directly or indirectly reduce poverty and thus abortions in addition to helping actual people as opposed to possible ones, but that gets no juice from the anti choice crowd.

Why? Because it isn’t about saving lives, protecting women from predatory abortionist or discrimination against minorities. It’s about preserving white male patriarchy by keeping women barefoot and pregnant.

[Zacha341]

^^^ "Higher minimum wage, contraceptive access, sex education, housing assistance, criminal justice reform, all directly or indirectly reduce poverty and thus abortions in addition to helping actual people as opposed to possible ones, but that gets no juice from the anti choice crowd."

It gets juice from me. We have take on a more of a fight, even where poverty exists relative to the choice of managing ones life, unto the choice of responsibility to have children. Not necessarily to not have children in all cases, just because abortion as contraceptive is available.

The 'choosing' needs to come about a bit ahead of pregnancy! Having worked with young populations, I've noted this is often not considered withstanding the abundance of contraceptives previously not available. So something else is going on.

Women 'pregnant and barefoot' ala the meme of male eh' patriarchy?

Is this just the squeal-zeal of the Right? If anything, in general those not caught in the snare of perma-un-employment who can stand, [[the uber rich aside who can handily fiscally and otherwise managed child-rearing) are working 50+ hour weeks, multiple jobs etc.

Put them shoes on, there's bills to pay is actually the truer 'narrative'. Repubs too. Uh, and Fido is spayed too and needs a to contribute to the income stream.

This effort alone leaves little time for pregnancy, so the 'Patriarchy' narrative falls apart or at least is not without derivation. But who needs that particular narrative solely to avoid taking a closer, careful look at abortion?

Further, are high numbers of pregnancies to birth any longer achievable as the American base-line for whites? Maybe in certain groups, communities and specific families. And who's to say they don't decide to have larger families? Or is patriarchy the only reason?

Is every woman a 'victim' who chooses to have children even when the situation is less than idea? If you are not white, what does abortion mean to you relative to choice?

I feel increased empowerment from the new narrative on abortion is in understanding how women are really impacted by abortion as contraceptive. And what impact abortion has had on our population at large and certain segments specifically, and demographically.

If we could but EVER extract the 'white male patriarchy' and 'the right' WOMAN VS MALE canards, maybe we could see how poverty [[disproportions) and the fuller understanding of what abortion is introspective to poverty and wealth, and choice, and obligation.

When looking at 'Choice', can these out-workings be part of what is considered before and after pregnancy occurs? Or is it to remain Abortion vs. Male Patriarchy?

I believe that due to the evolution on how abortion is now perceived, more are choosing no, as a choice. Hence abortion numbers are falling. As I've stated before the 'right' DOES NOT own the Prolife perspective, even if they think they did. Unless we give it to them. I will not.

[detroitsgwenivere]

^^So what, exactly, are the "social ramifications" that you speak of? And how do they apply to the women of Detroit, many of which I know, fall into the poverty living demographic?

[Zacha341]

I don't have the answers except for more choice, education and consideration before pregnancy. The ramifications are heavy as the dialogue expands once the 'keep 'em barefoot pregnant' right-wing thing is set aside for a nano-second!

Poverty continues withstanding abortion alternatives. Multiple abortions to the level of physical problems are not unheard of especially in impoverished areas where abortion used repeatedly as birth control is real. There are also connections to abortion and the mental health of women, and men who may in later life regret their choice [[for varied reasons). Who would have thought the sheer number of abortions would be so high? What does that say and do to a nations and a populations psychic being? How does the knowledge of this influence young people born during this time as they enter their teens? Existentially, abortion as played out in our communities specifically cannot be a neutral.

Well anyway, as Bill Clinton [[eh-hmm, a 'man', though perhaps less 'patriarchal' perhaps, mind you) upon taking office the first time stated "Abortion should not only be safe and legal, it should be rare.”

But it's not worked out that way. Though as others have stated here abortion is down right now somewhat. For many reasons, some not fitting the narrative some desire though.

[Henry Whalley]

And not taking care of all those un-aborted babies put up for adoption. Unless they're newborn, white and perfect few people want them.

Kamala Harris Tours Abortion Clinic [[theonion.com)

[Zacha341]

^ Why is this a priority for vice president Harris? [Somewhat rhetorical question]

[Henry Whalley]

^ Why is this a priority for vice president Harris? [Somewhat rhetorical question]

Sid Barrera said it best, she's probably looking for other jobs.

[Zacha341]

[southen]

How dare she. She should sit down and just let religious zealots dictate women's healthcare.

[Zacha341]

You don't have to be religious to question abortion at the levels going on here in the US [far higher than in Europe for example].

Abortion during the Clinton years was presented to be 'safe, legal and rare...' Many agree that to be reasonable.

Abortion now is presented as a sacrament; a faith symbol [speaking of religion] as it were: 'shout your abortion' [google this and see what you get], ignoring consequences and dehumanization applied to whole people groups.

Where IS that 'care'?

It's working out that more black people [women specifically] are awakening to the disproportional decrease in our numbers due to PP pushing abortion. That voice and response won't be silenced. Or dictated to us solely as a 'white-men-right-winged' construct. To shut us up!

Our challenge on the subject is our push-back against a form of genocide. We're used to the name calling.

That's the least of our concern at this point!

[oladub]

[QUOTE=Zacha341;520879]Information from both sides of the topic:

http://www.dailykos.com/article
/QUOTE]

From the dailykos article, "anti-choice fanatics throughout the country plan to protest outside of Planned Parenthood Clinics as part of their crusade to deny federal funding"

From the federal Constitution, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

I support the right of women to abort their babies. I am male. There are medical reasons for some abortions. I also support free speech. However, I can't find any power generally delegated to the federal government to regulate or fund abortions. Therefore, regulating abortions is a matter of the States. I would be fine with my State adopting Roe vs. Wade legislation and adjusting it to recognize medical advances since the federal Roe vs. Wade became a federal law in 1973. Roe tried to balance the interests of viable babies who can't vote with the freedom and medical considerations of their mothers.

States may adjust their policies to their own preferences. "Oregon does not have any legal restrictions on abortion. For example, in Oregon there are no gestational limits, no waiting periods, and you can access medication abortion [[abortion pills) by mail."

You are correct about black babies being more likely to be aborted. Even Planned Parenthood acknowledges that Margaret Sanger, a founder of PP's predecessor caused irreparable damage to the black community.

Democrats know that abortion and federal money to get rid of one's baby is a rallying call to get especially younger and unmarried women to the polls in November. Michigan voters already approved proposition 3. That's how the Constitution is supposed to work. That being the case, fear mongering to get out the vote shouldn't be such an issue in Michigan.

[Richard]

How dare she. She should sit down and just let religious zealots dictate women's healthcare.

actually what was done was remove it from the federal level where the government had no right to dictate to the people ,and placed it where it belongs at the local level where the majority votes and decides in a democratic way.

If you do not approve of it,or approve of it,then you put it up for a vote with your state legislature.

So she should sit down and not say anything,because it was never in the federal government’s prevue to decide.

I am still waiting for my X wife to tell my daughter that her and her two children would not even have existed had she got her way in that moment in time,but I doubt that will happen.

[Rocket]

How dare she. She should sit down and just let religious zealots dictate women's healthcare.

It's not healthcare 99% of the time.

[JonWylie]

It's not healthcare 99% of the time.

And I'm sure you have some facts to back up that statement?

[Henry Whalley]

How dare she. She should sit down and just let religious zealots dictate women's healthcare.

https://media.npr.org/assets/img/202...ce757a.jpg?s=6

[southen]

https://media.npr.org/assets/img/202...ce757a.jpg?s=6

Just give them white collars.

[southen]

And I'm sure you have some facts to back up that statement?

Coming from the guy who claims that mass shootings are false flag events? Don't hold your breath.

[Zacha341]

So related to Detroit, who's population remains predominately black we're finally starting to see a reduction in Abortion. I recall the early eighties there were clinics everywhere in the D.

It is well established that the use of abortion disproportionately impacts our population. The Sanger factor's no longer debatable per PP's own admission. Couple that with the migrant crisis further offsetting our numbers, our vote count, etc we could see a non-inclusive shift in our representation in local and national elections, economics, etc.

I'm not a racial essentialist as some on the far-right and far-left are, but I bring up these issues due to how significantly abortion-on-demand has reduced our numbers. After all, we see others talking about inclusion et al, pushing their particular group and intersections w/o apology!

We need to keep an eye on our interests and agency. It takes numbers for that! Not more abortions.

More are waking up - realizing that everything put forth as a 'right' and care may not be in our best interests!

[CassTechGrad]

If you don’t like the laws where you live then Just get in the car and drive to the next state, “Oy Veh”, that’s all you gotta’ do. The Pilgrims sailed across the ocean to escape what they saw as oppression with English law; settlers crossed the plains in a covered wagon to live as they chose, and you can’t spend a couple of hours in the car. Quit complaining and do what they did, get out.

[swingline]

So related to Detroit, who's population remains predominately black we're finally starting to see a reduction in Abortion. I recall the early eighties there were clinics everywhere in the D.

It's well established that the use of abortion disproportionately impacts our population. The Sanger factor's no longer debatable per PP's own admission. Couple that with the migrant crisis further offsetting our presence, our vote count, etc we could see a non-inclusive shift in our representation in local and national elections, economics, etc.

I'm not a racial essentialist as some on the far-right and far-left are, but I bring up these issues due to how significantly abortion-on-demand has reduced our numbers. After all, we see others talking about inclusion et al, pushing their particular group and intersections w/o apology!

We need to keep an eye on our interests and agency as well. It takes numbers for that. Not more abortions.

More are waking up - realizing that everything put forth as a 'right' and care may not be in our best interests!

Not buying any of this Zacha. Perhaps it "disproportionately affects [y]our population" because those folks are making perfectly rational choices about starting or expanding their families. Exactly the reason why choice is necessary. White religious extremists shouldn't be forcing their religious beliefs on you [or any of us]. Your population has agency just like every other. Yet you want to relinquish it to the same group that has historically oppressed you. Curious.

And your lament about your population numbers seems straight out of QAnon except that those folks couldn't care less about any problems in your community.

[Rocket]

And I'm sure you have some facts to back up that statement?

Pretty much, though I may have exaggerated slightly. It's actually 97.2% non-healthcare, depending on the year and the survey done.

For sure Southen has zero data supporting the statement "Women's healthcare". That's just a lie the left uses to justify their actions. Is there a reason you didn't ask him for data to support such a laughable statement?