2016 Number of Homicides in Detroit: 302

[canuck]

I think that a lot of it has to do with the generalization that your average Canadian is simply a lot nicer human being than your average American.

Americans are pretty hung up on economic or social status and seem to think that anyone beneath them is a lower level human being and the more of them that there are just reinforces their opinions of themselves as a better person. We seem to have a awful lot of admiration for people who's only accomplishment is accumulating wealth, like that is some sort of ruler for the measurement of the quality of someone's character.

Just a opinion.

I get that. I don't think less of Americans but I see differences in not only the social net but the value, the cost of higher education for instance where a student medical specialist will owe 5 or 600 grand in tuition. The costs are a boon to a system that traps doctors into a net of liabilities of all kinds, including being beholdened to insurance and pharma. Insurance companies extract the most money they can from regular folk. The outrageous cost of University tuition and meds in the States is extremely lucrative to Big Insurance. The fact that you could study in a top flite medical.faculty in Canada for a fraction of that in the US is a part of the social net that spells; "affordability". That affordability is less of a strain on the system in salaries. Where bham1984 is right however is that meds in Canada are second in cost to the US because of our proximity.

There are programs like subsidized daycare which may become a federally mandated norm that exists in Quebec where parents pay 8$ daily fees. Taxes are higher here but the net does protect the less fortunate and the economic disparities are not as flagrant.

[Johnnny5]

IMO the high murder rate in Detroit isn't the result of easy access to guns [[Just about every farm kid in Michigan has unlimited and immediate access to firearms). It isn't due to high poverty or inequality [[Calcutta India has a murder rate that is 1/2 of Detroit's), and it isn't due to lax laws or prison sentences [[the U.S imprisons more people than any other nation on this planet, by far).

The cause and the focus should be on the breakdown of nuclear families, and specifically the absence of fathers in urban African American households. Today more than 70% of African Americans are born out of wedlock [[Compared to 25% of white Americans), and nearly 2/3rds of black children live in a household without their biological father present. Children that grow up without a father present are far more likely to end up in prison during their lifetimes [[Some studies show that nearly 90% of violent felons grew up in homes where their father was absent!).

Sadly, single parenting is becoming more acceptable throughout America, and it is the norm in Detroit. Yes, divorce and the loss of a spouse happens and of course raising great children in a one parent household is possible, but it's far from being ideal. Women that repeatedly choose to have children outside of a nuclear family need to be cognizant of the fact that they're putting their sons at a disadvantage that is likely follow them for their entire adult life [[If they are fortunate enough to make it that far).

[ABetterDetroit]

IMO the high murder rate in Detroit isn't the result of easy access to guns [[Just about every farm kid in Michigan has unlimited and immediate access to firearms). It isn't due to high poverty or inequality [[Calcutta India has a murder rate that is 1/2 of Detroit's), and it isn't due to lax laws or prison sentences [[the U.S imprisons more people than any other nation on this planet, by far).

The cause and the focus should be on the breakdown of nuclear families, and specifically the absence of fathers in urban African American households. Today more than 70% of African Americans are born out of wedlock [[Compared to 25% of white Americans), and nearly 2/3rds of black children live in a household without their biological father present. Children that grow up without a father present are far more likely to end up in prison during their lifetimes [[Some studies show that nearly 90% of violent felons grew up in homes where their father was absent!).

Sadly, single parenting is becoming more acceptable throughout America, and it is the norm in Detroit. Yes, divorce and the loss of a spouse happens and of course raising great children in a one parent household is possible, but it's far from being ideal. Women that repeatedly choose to have children outside of a nuclear family need to be cognizant of the fact that they're putting their sons at a disadvantage that is likely follow them for their entire adult life [[If they are fortunate enough to make it that far).

I do not disagree with this point. Absent fathers is contributing factor, to dismiss it would be ignoring raw data. The question remains what can be done about it? Punishing a child because the mother elected to go it alone is off the table and any other solution to this aspect would require a approach that would need generations to make a difference. Start now by all means if education will help but meanwhile...hundreds of people are being murdered at a abnormally very high rate every single year. Even if you ignore the inhumanity of it, the finiacial cost alone is sky high and would require a heavy book just to list them.

[Canadian Visitor]

IMO the high murder rate in Detroit isn't the result of easy access to guns [[Just about every farm kid in Michigan has unlimited and immediate access to firearms). It isn't due to high poverty or inequality [[Calcutta India has a murder rate that is 1/2 of Detroit's), and it isn't due to lax laws or prison sentences [[the U.S imprisons more people than any other nation on this planet, by far).

The cause and the focus should be on the breakdown of nuclear families, and specifically the absence of fathers in urban African American households. Today more than 70% of African Americans are born out of wedlock [[Compared to 25% of white Americans), and nearly 2/3rds of black children live in a household without their biological father present. Children that grow up without a father present are far more likely to end up in prison during their lifetimes [[Some studies show that nearly 90% of violent felons grew up in homes where their father was absent!).

Sadly, single parenting is becoming more acceptable throughout America, and it is the norm in Detroit. Yes, divorce and the loss of a spouse happens and of course raising great children in a one parent household is possible, but it's far from being ideal. Women that repeatedly choose to have children outside of a nuclear family need to be cognizant of the fact that they're putting their sons at a disadvantage that is likely follow them for their entire adult life [[If they are fortunate enough to make it that far).

I'm not overly compelled by the comparison to Calcutta.

Aside from the fact handguns aren't widely available there, there are huge number of lifestyle/cultural differences at play.

****

I would suggest that your concern about the nuclear family has some value.

Though, it should be said, increasingly the majority of Canadians live common-law, and never get legally hitched.

Yet somehow, society goes on functioning.

I think if you linked the breakdown of the nuclear family, in part, to the number of young black men in jails, you'd be on to something.

If you then asked what measures would keep them from going to jail in the first place, we'd be back to measures to combat poverty and gun control.

That can seem simplistic.

Keep in mind, its not that hard to get a gun in Canada.

Its just not THAT easy.

The rural comparison is to a situation w/shot guns and rifles which to my mind are used far less than handguns in homicides, and are likely less prevalent rurally than in urban/suburban areas.

****

Anti-poverty programs aren't just about 'hope' and 'opportunity' though they are, and that helps.

They are also about a low-income woman having access to free birth control; [[and men, free access to condoms)

Its about robust sex-ed in schools; and quality schools period with a greater focus on preventing drop-outs.

[[its illegal in Ontario to leave school, prior to 18, unless you've graduated)

Its also about recreational programs which keep kids out of mischief and under supervision.

Most low-income area schools in Toronto have after-school programs for free, and you can keep kids busy till dinner time.

After dinner they can visit a community ctr, library or park for free, under supervision in virtually every neighbourhood.

***

Crime prevention too plays a roll. Security cameras are more prevalent here [[on transit, in schools, etc.) and we have, by and large a single, over-arching police service for an entire city and/or region.

It is, in the end, many things.

Not just one.

But there's no question in my mind that quality gun control AND a robust social safety net help enormously.

[Canadian Visitor]

I should add at this juncture than Canada is not Nirvana by any means.

There are material gaps in our social safety net.

There are still poor folks and its still not a comfortable life.

We can and should do better.

***

I just don't think any of that takes away that the choices our society has made do seem to be linked to greater public safety.

[Towne Cluber]

Culture change -- with the concept and values of a nuclear family being at the foundation of the matter. Everything else [[including talk about social safety nets, gun control, etc.) is well after the fact.

[[As a Black person, I absolutely cringe when people try to justify all sorts of other social norms and explanations.)

[CrashDummy]

I'm continually amazed that Americans feel "safer" when they have deadly firearms in their homes.

Really, it is men who tend to feel safer. I'm not so sure about the rest of the household, since it is that man who is statistically the one most likely to kill them.

[oladub]

On the former, I would suggest to you that those areas are rural poor, which means, by definition that the poverty isn't 'concentrated' and the crime rate must be compared only to other rural areas.

Urban crime is at least partially a function of 'stranger danger' which is to say people not knowing someone, or that they do or don't belong in an area.

As well as the critical mass of people necessary for gangs and for profitable crime of scale.

That's an interesting thought about the reason for the difference in homicide rates being a matter of being urban or rural instead of relating such differences to gun control laws. Washington, DC does have 2180% more murders per 100,000 population than does very rural Vermont after all although both are Democratic bastions. Were population density the reason for homicides, the solution would be to disperse the populations of cities to rural areas. Of the ten states with the lowest homicide rates by my count, 3 are red [[ND, WY, ID) , 3 are blue [[MN, VT, Hawaii) and four are purple. Of the 10 states with the highest homicide rates 1 is blue [[MD), 2 are red [[SC, MS), and 7 are purple. One would think that gun control might be an answer but Democratic states with more gun control laws than Republican states wind up in similar proportions among the highest and lowest homicide rate states.

[Dumpling]

Something that happens here in Detroit is that the homicide rate is
underreported. Case in point: Charlie Langton of Fox 2 News reported this
morning on the identities of the two suspects in the east side gas station report;
reported that they are still at large; but reported this as the first homicide of
the year in Detroit.
This is actually a fine job of reporting. However the Facebook page for
Affirmations in Ferndale is showing a GoFundMe request for Toranaga
Henderson who was shot in an armed robbery Tuesday evening but
apparently died afterwards.
A while back the Detroit News did a study and online searchable database
on Detroit homicides which was based on DPD stats. Many of the homicides
listed in the database were not reported on at all in the media.

[Zacha341]

^^^ That's right. A great deal of crime is under-reported. That murder/ car jacking on Gratiot [[Javon Perry) was particularly grim as he was giving up his car, walking away only to be chased down by the killers and shot in the head.

Like you can do all you want with development and progress downtown Detroit etc. but in the mean time the neighborhoods are violent, increasingly.

It is increasingly hard to have nice or even average things you acquire as possession, not to have them taken -- including in some case your life too: MADNESS!

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/v...-was-shot-dead

[ABetterDetroit]

I understand why the 2nd amendment was added to the constitution, it had nothing to do with hunting or shooting sports that's for sure.

What I don't understand is where and why the cost of this right in the 2nd has to be burdened by everyone? The constitution doesn't specify that and the firearm industry is already being taxed but the question remains is it taxed adequately? It's undeniable that the growth of the industry in the US over the last couple decades has been high.

It seems more than fair to point out that the growth in this industry has caused the cost of law enforcement to go up exponentially. A cop used to be pretty well ready to answer almost anything with a trusty Colt or S&W .38 revolver on their hip but those days are long gone. Now they need the very best bulletproof vests, advanced communication gear, HD body cams with sound, full blown military training on rifles and tactics and all the equipment necessary to carry out those operations. Night vision, infrared vision, robots, cammand and control with air support. Overwhelming large response to any call with a 'man with a gun' because the fact has been proven that man could be someone with military training waiting in ambush with a comepletly modern modular semi-automatic battle rifle in .223 caliber with a back pack full of amunition making him very mobile with roughly 300 to 600 rounds of fast loading detachable 30rd magazines in just one perpetrator. To be fair, the most common criminal seems to prefer a semi-automatic pistol in 9mm or .40 cal with 12 to 15 ready to go as fast as they can pull the trigger. Next we have the investigations to these incidents in schools, churches, movie theaters, homes and public streets often involving loss of life which require reconstruction, forensic evidence collection by highly trained specialists on an ever increasing scale just to attempt to figure out what the hell happened. Yes, they used to do it before but the margin for error has decreased significantly over time. Training and more and more training to higher and higher educated police officers to handle all of the above

I'm glad that Idaho is so thrilled to welcome the firearms industry with open arms in that state and the jobs that come with it but at what price does the Detroits, Chicagos, Wayne and Cook counties, Michigan and Illinois and the rest of the country have to pay for their prosperity with that business? Hundreds of millions? Many Billions is more like it.

10-15 Billion rounds sold annually in the United States. Tax the primers at the point manufacture or import just .25 cents. You can't afford 12 bucks more to shoot up a hundred at the range too bad, the founding fathers never promised it had to be cheap. Hunters and self defense folks can handle it, a buck or three per hunting trip. New tax revenue generated, net a minimum 2.5 Billion annually.

10 million new firearms annually in the US. Tax all of them from the receiver [[part defined by the ATF as a gun) at import or manufacture an additional $100 each. Maybe the tax will deter a few sales but I doubt it... [[my dead cold fingers and all that crap) net 1 Billion annually.

Most important, take this roughly 3.5 billion dollars new annual income and return it to the states to be distributed on a per capita basis for full time sworn Police Officers to the Police Departments to help defer the rising cost of law enforcement.

Diversify the tax base, spread the love around. The usual 'go to' money piles are tapped out. Some of those need a cut.

If it's your hobby, sport or even self defense there is no reason why all of us have to burden the full brunt of the cost.

[Wesley Mouch]

I understand why the 2nd amendment was added to the constitution, it had nothing to do with hunting or shooting sports that's for sure.

What I don't understand is where and why the cost of this right in the 2nd has to be burdened by everyone? ...

I am encouraged that gun control is no longer the only answer being presented for crime. Social problems and differences have been discussed in this thread. I do believe guns are part of the problem -- and that gun control should be included in addressing crime. But I'm really impressed that we are now looking at crime problems and seeing more than just a gun problem.

Yes, reasonable taxation of gun manufacturing is OK with this libertarian. Ignorance of other causes is not.

[dbc]

Of the ten states with the lowest homicide rates by my count, 3 are red [[ND, WY, ID) , 3 are blue [[MN, VT, Hawaii) and four are purple. Of the 10 states with the highest homicide rates 1 is blue [[MD), 2 are red [[SC, MS), and 7 are purple. One would think that gun control might be an answer but Democratic states with more gun control laws than Republican states wind up in similar proportions among the highest and lowest homicide rate states.

If I may quibble, the ten states with the lowest homicide rates for 2015 [[the latest year for which the FBI has released data) were: NH [[1.1/100K), HI [[1.3), VT [[1.6), ME [[1.7), UT [[1.8), ID [[1.9), MA [[1.9), 2.3 [[IA), MN [[2.4), and OR [[2.5). Of those, I would say five are blue [[HI, VT, MA, MN, and OR), three are red [[UT, ID, and IA), and two are purple [[NH and ME).

Conversely, the ten states with the highest homicide rates were: LA [[10.3), MS [[8.7), MD [[8.6), MO [[8.3), SC [[8.1), AK [[8.0), AL [[7.2), DE [[6.7), NV [[6.2), and TN [[6.2). Of those, I would say two are blue [[MD and DE), seven are red [[LA, MS, MO, SC, AK, AL, and TN), and one is purple [[NV).

Of the ten best states, two get an A- for the strictness of their gun laws from the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, one gets a B, one a C, one a C+, one a D, and four an F. Of the worst states, one gets an A-, one gets a B, one gets a C, and seven get an F.

Accepting any counter-quibbling one may have with my color assignments, my main point is to rebut any inference that if more gun control does not equal less murder then more guns and lax gun laws do. If that were the case, the U.S., with the highest total and per capita number of guns in the developed first world -- in fact, the world, with 88.8/100K per the Small Arms Survey -- should have a correspondingly low murder rate. It does not. In fact, it is one of the highest among first world countries. According to the FBI data, 71.5 % of the murders in 2015 for which they received weapons data involved the use of firearms. This amounted to 9,616 deaths.

That all said, I accept that gun control is not the only answer, as gun violence is an incredibly complex problem rife with socio-economic, political, and constitutional issues. Sadly, given our current state of hyper-partisan politics, I don't see any end to the tragically high number of murders in this country - blue, red, or purple.

[Bham1982]

I am encouraged that gun control is no longer the only answer being presented for crime.

I don't think anyone believes that gun control is the only answer for crime.

But most criminologists would agree it's a factor in the U.S. being a "special case" re. first world violence. It's the only rich nation where guns are essentially available to all, and where gun regulation is essentially a toxic subject among politicians.

Even the massacre of children at Sandy Hook had no effect on the U.S. discourse. Very modest subsequent proposals for limiting guns among mentally ill people and suspected terrorists failed to pass. If we can't limit guns for aspiring ISIS members or baby-killers it's a hopeless issue for now. Any proposal will send the "Obama wants to take your guns" crowd into crazed overdrive.

[canuck]

Here is an article examining the reasons for differences in murder rates between US cities and Montreal's last year.

http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-...nap-story.html

[Colombian Dan]

Nice to know nearly all cities here in Colombia have a lower homicide rate that Detroit has. Also, I have yet to see any other city with miles upon miles of burned out buildings like Detroit...

[Memph]

Here's stats for York West, a district of Toronto that includes Jane-Finch [[probably the worst neighbourhood) and other areas that aren't much better.

Ethnic demographics
22% black
28% white
31% East, South and SE Asian
4% Arab and W Asian
9% Latin American
6% other/mixed

Homicide rate: ~6.5/100k [[2005-2010 average)
Incomes: noticeably below average, but not as extreme as Detroit, probably more like Pontiac or Inkster?
% of children in single parent households: ~41% [[about 22% in Toronto metro area)

The suburb of Brampton is about 15% black
Homicide rate: ~1/100k
Incomes: middle class to lower middle class, similar to Warren or Roseville
% of children in single parent households: ~21%

[Memph]

Comparing Chicago vs Detroit vs New York, Chicago is not very impressive. Maybe 50% of Chicago is impoverished neighbourhoods vs about 75% for Detroit* so if Detroit has a 50% higher homicide rate, that's not surprising.

NYC is much more interesting, because it's impoverished neighbourhoods are denser than Chicago's and Detroit's, often by a fair bit. I suppose NYC still has less proportionally fewer impoverished neighbourhoods than Chicago [[and ofc Detroit) but it still has a fair bit, yet it's homicide rate is waaayy lower. Even the Bronx, which is overwhelmingly poor and very dense, has a homicide rate far lower than Chicago's or Detroit's.

*regardless of what your cut-off is for impoverished, or if you'd rather look at other indicators like single parent families, I'd expect the difference between Detroit and Chicago is about as big as the difference in murder rate

[Bham1982]

Even the Bronx, which is overwhelmingly poor and very dense, has a homicide rate far lower than Chicago's or Detroit's.

Poverty in the U.S. isn't heavily correlated with crime or homicide rates. The Bronx is significantly safer than, say, Boston or San Francisco, despite much higher poverty.

And while the Bronx is poor like Chicago and Detroit, it has relatively few African Americans compared to Chicago or Detroit. Most blacks in the Bronx are from West Indies or West Africa.

The only black-dominated part of the Bronx [[far NE Bronx) is mostly West Indian. The few majority black census tracts in parts of the South/Central Bronx are mostly West African. Most of the high poverty neighborhoods in the Bronx are a Hispanic blend of Puerto Rican, Dominican, and, more recently Mexican/Central American.

[Wesley Mouch]

I don't think anyone believes that gun control is the only answer for crime.

But most criminologists would agree it's a factor in the U.S. being a "special case" re. first world violence. ...snip...

You may not have heard, but experts are no longer in charge. Experts had their chance, and they failed.

[archfan]

You may not have heard, but experts are no longer in charge. Experts had their chance, and they failed.

So, now the amateurs?

[Bham1982]

You may not have heard, but experts are no longer in charge. Experts had their chance, and they failed.

This is true. Idiots are now in charge, and we're about to pay a massive price.

Welcome to Idiocracy.

[Wesley Mouch]

[QUOTE=Bham1982;519114]Again, except for gun control, this stuff doesn't matter. You aren't going to lower homicide rates through social welfare measures [[though there are plenty of other good reasons to implement such measures).
[/quuote]
As per West Side Story... I'm depraved on account of I'm deprived.

Have never understood the association here, but it is a shiboleth of the left. Crime isn't a social problem, its a poverty problem.

Canada has a low murder rate relative to the U.S. because it doesn't have the demographic that accounts for the U.S. murder rate. It isn't like U.S. whites and Asians have much higher murder rates than Canadian whites and Asians.

Have you ever considered a position in the Trump adminstration?

Bur seriously, folks, this probably does account for most of the difference. So then the question becomes how do we change those groups? I once read the non-assimilated groups [[including immigrants) have higher crime rates until they are assimilated into their larger communities. Wish I could find that article and see if the 'fake news' or not.

[txlady]

Wow, growing up, my parents were thrilled to drive us to Windsor to catch the train to Toronto and spend the weekend, they figured we were safer there than at home. We were four 16-yr-old girls, btw. At the time, my Canadian relatives thought my parents were nuts, because 3, yes 3, people had been murdered in Toronto that year. I believe the murder rate in Detroit was above 400 each of those years.

[Wesley Mouch]

So, now the amateurs?

I was more thinking, 'the professionals'. Mr. Tillerson isn't an amateur. But he's certainly not the career politician, government bureaucrat, nor college professor.

btw, I have always liked Rubio, but his questions to Tillerson were not very bright. Why is it important whether Tillerson thinks Putin is a war-criminal. What kind of Secretary of State would answer that question, when his job is going to be working with the guy. Now Ukraine questions are fair -- and T answered them, and said he would've done better than Kerry/Obama -- and he gave reasons. I think T made R look like the political hack that he apparently is. I'm glad today that Rubio isn't President.

So what does this have to do with Detroit, since that should always be on our minds here. Not much directly, but how these non-career folks Trump's bringing in handle Detroit just might be quite different than the 'status quo' [[or even worse the inflammation of racial animus) we got from Obama. Trump seems like a breath of fresh air on race issues -- if we can just get the bigots on the left to realize that the old solutions didn't work -- and won't work. I think Detroit'll benefit from Trump & Co and his non-experts.