Monroe Block Development

**masterblaster** · February-23-23, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by EGrant

I am totally fine with this update. We don't need to be rushing to build massive office towers post-pandemic, and the success of the drive-in and other stuff going on in the parking lot there now proved a desire for entertainment. Bedrock has a pretty good track record of hosting events and "activations" that people truly enjoy, so I doubt this would be anything like that Fort Street food hall [[which was too far off the beaten path anyway).

It's a design that fits Detroit, not a design that wants to make Detroit something else. Scaling down to a midrise is a much better fit than a high-rise right now anyway.

This is a bizarre statement. The Fort Street food hall is 2 blocks from Campus Martius. It was across the street from the original Penobscot Building.

Originally Posted by 401don

They key to both the food halls and retail is lots of nearby residents with solid incomes.

And the greater downtown area has a growing population with incomes exceeding 'solid'. The food halls I highlighted in Hartford and Minneapolis are not in particularly wealthy neighborhoods. They are in Hispanic immigrant-heavy areas [[see the restaurant line-up here).

Detroit already has a successful mini-market hall in Midtown, but a big one right downtown will be a great attraction. One is also planned for Eastern Market.

Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

I’m 65. I’ve given up hope for living to see the Monroe Block redeveloped. I’m not expecting to live to 95. I’ve already been waiting since 1982 when I looked out at it from my office in the First National Building.

In 1982, the original 19th century buildings were still there. They were demolished in 1990. Lowell's Fabulous Ruins of Detroit has a photo of the old block:

https://www.detroityes.com/downtown/21monroe.php

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · February-23-23, 12:29 PM

Yes, in 1982 I gazed down at the abandoned but beautiful 19th century buildings. I thought then and still think that restoring those buildings was the best way to go. But here we are 40 years later just talking about endless proposals getting pushed off further and further.

**EGrant** · February-23-23, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by masterblaster

This is a bizarre statement. The Fort Street food hall is 2 blocks from Campus Martius. It was across the street from the original Penobscot Building.

It was off the beaten path of where people go downtown Detroit. During the evening, that area of downtown is virtually empty. Sure, it's only two blocks, but there just wasn't foot traffic in that direction. At least Maru has a hook of being one of the only decent sushi spots in the entire metro area to bring people in.

Not sure why I'm even engaging with condescending comments like that on a "discussion" forum.

**Gistok** · February-23-23, 10:36 PM

2 blocks is a big deal in downtown Detroit! The old Oriental Theatre [later Downtown RKO] never was a money maker because it was just a block farther than other GCP theatres... and never made enough money because patrons didn't want to go that far west... which is why the auditorium was pounded to rubble in 1953. Only the remains of its' lobby [within the Briggs Houz, now known as PAO restaurant] survives.

Location Location Location...

**bailey** · February-24-23, 09:24 AM

folks, the reality is this project is likely never going to break ground. Covid was a shotgun blast to the economics of it and now the post covid mortgage apocalypse is it's death rattle. The big red money machine is off and it's staying off for a while. 80% of RM's business [[re-fi mortgagees) are gone. RKT did two very public layoffs last year and it's continued quietly since. whole business areas and ancillary companies are getting the axe. Next Tuesday's earnings call should be nightmare fuel to anyone who's invested in anything to do with downtown development . While Bedrock exists outside of RKT, lets be honest about who and what is underwriting everything Bedrock does.

Look around at the Bedrock buildings downntown, cork town, brush park and over on washington and just do the math on the number of empty floors, condos/apts, & storefronts. And that isn't counting the giant albatross that is the Hudson's site. Bedrock is not going to add more empty spaces to it's already insane vacancy rate. [[and yes, no one will admit to the empty space, so just don't believe your lying eyes then).

At least the space is activated somewhat as a carnival attraction and not a weed strewn vacant lot. Unfortunately that is all its going to be for a looooong while.

**Satiricalivory** · February-24-23, 12:36 PM

It will break ground... some point this decade. lol

Honestly just make it a hotel tower.

**Gistok** · February-25-23, 12:41 AM

Well the Cadillac Tower, which Gilbert already owns, is 438 ft. tall and 40 floors. The thing I noticed the only time I was ever in there was that the floor heights were short [[less than 10 ft.). This would make it a perfect residential tower. So even though nothing has been announced, I can picture the Cadillac Square entire frontage being finished with a Market Hall, National Theatre complex, and Cadillac Tower residences, before the other parts of the plan.

I think that a residential and office tower go up on the Monroe St. side isn't such a bad idea. With Gilbert having sold Greektown Casino... his plans for tying Campus Martius to Greektown are toast. So it looks like he wants to make the Campus Martius and Cadillac Square frontage more people space than Monroe, although having residential there should help.

I'm starting to feel less disappointed about the office tower not being directly attached to Campus Martius. All the plans are still fluid, and having a low rise Market Hall and National Theatre isn't so bad... after all had the Monroe block of buildings survived, they would have just been about 4 stories anyway.

We need to see architectural renderings... and that's not happening yet.

**K-slice** · February-25-23, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

folks, the reality is this project is likely never going to break ground. Covid was a shotgun blast to the economics of it and now the post covid mortgage apocalypse is it's death rattle. The big red money machine is off and it's staying off for a while. 80% of RM's business [[re-fi mortgagees) are gone. RKT did two very public layoffs last year and it's continued quietly since. whole business areas and ancillary companies are getting the axe. Next Tuesday's earnings call should be nightmare fuel to anyone who's invested in anything to do with downtown development . While Bedrock exists outside of RKT, lets be honest about who and what is underwriting everything Bedrock does.

Look around at the Bedrock buildings downntown, cork town, brush park and over on washington and just do the math on the number of empty floors, condos/apts, & storefronts. And that isn't counting the giant albatross that is the Hudson's site. Bedrock is not going to add more empty spaces to it's already insane vacancy rate. [[and yes, no one will admit to the empty space, so just don't believe your lying eyes then).

At least the space is activated somewhat as a carnival attraction and not a weed strewn vacant lot. Unfortunately that is all its going to be for a looooong while.

Since when does a developer need to have another, larger, sister corporation to get development done? In fact, name one major national developer of commercial, residential, and industrial space that is dependent on some other company for it's continued existence. Real estate development doesn't require massive ancillary income streams, and unlike entities like Ford Land which exist solely to manage the properties used by one company, Bedrock has the asset depth to be considered totally independent of the other Rocket companies.

I also don't know what buildings you're looking at and seeing vacancies. Apart from Under Armor, Retail vacancies are few and far between [[I'm convinced they pushed out Madewell and the others to make way for a larger tenant in the pipeline).

Brush parks new residential seems to be very well occupied, I imagine it it wasn't there wouldn't be a never ending flow of smaller developments in the area. Same goes for downtown, all indications, and recent info about the residential market point to it being strong.

Your eyes seem to be the ones that are lying.

**djtomt** · February-26-23, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by K-slice

Since when does a developer need to have another, larger, sister corporation to get development done? In fact, name one major national developer of commercial, residential, and industrial space that is dependent on some other company for it's continued existence. Real estate development doesn't require massive ancillary income streams, and unlike entities like Ford Land which exist solely to manage the properties used by one company, Bedrock has the asset depth to be considered totally independent of the other Rocket companies.

I also don't know what buildings you're looking at and seeing vacancies. Apart from Under Armor, Retail vacancies are few and far between [[I'm convinced they pushed out Madewell and the others to make way for a larger tenant in the pipeline).

Brush parks new residential seems to be very well occupied, I imagine it it wasn't there wouldn't be a never ending flow of smaller developments in the area. Same goes for downtown, all indications, and recent info about the residential market point to it being strong.

Your eyes seem to be the ones that are lying.

From what I can see, the bulk of Brush Park's residential is not completed yet. I am amazed how long it takes to build 4 story structures. Seems like it's been going on forever.

Also, there are many office vacancies in the CBD right now. I think that's what the poster is alluding to.

Carry on.

**401don** · February-26-23, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by djtomt

From what I can see, the bulk of Brush Park's residential is not completed yet. I am amazed how long it takes to build 4 story structures. Seems like it's been going on forever.

Also, there are many office vacancies in the CBD right now. I think that's what the poster is alluding to.

Carry on.

The guy lost all credibility when he said they probably forced out Madewell. Bedrock is working to fill as much retail space as they can to make a vibrant downtown to not only pay rent but make it attractive for residential. Why would they force them out?

**K-slice** · February-26-23, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

The guy lost all credibility when he said they probably forced out Madewell. Bedrock is working to fill as much retail space as they can to make a vibrant downtown to not only pay rent but make it attractive for residential. Why would they force them out?

You think the fact that those 3 subsequent storefronts emptying within 12 months is just a coincidence? That's the official line of course, but how gullible can you be? They were each made an offer they couldn't NOT refuse at lease renewal and left as planned. The proof will come when one large higher profile tenant is announced across those 3 storefronts.

**401don** · February-26-23, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by K-slice

You think the fact that those 3 subsequent storefronts emptying within 12 months is just a coincidence? That's the official line of course, but how gullible can you be? They were each made an offer they couldn't NOT refuse at lease renewal and left as planned. The proof will come when one large higher profile tenant is announced across those 3 storefronts.

So why wouldn't they be offered an alternate site at an attractive rent? It's not like they're not sitting on tons of empty storefronts.

**ShadowSoarer** · February-26-23, 06:54 PM

Not to add fuel to the fire, so Le Labo had a pop up in Capitol Park back in October and rumor has it that they are/were to open up on Library Street. It has been a couple months since the pop up but sometimes retailers take forever to open in Downtown Detroit [[Sahara Grill, Savage X Fenty, Peach Cobbler Factory are still not open yet for example).

**K-slice** · February-27-23, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by 401don

So why wouldn't they be offered an alternate site at an attractive rent? It's not like they're not sitting on tons of empty storefronts.

Maybe they were, Just because there ARE empty storefronts, doesn't mean the RIGHT storefront is available at that moment.

**stasu1213** · February-28-23, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by ShadowSoarer

Not to add fuel to the fire, so Le Labo had a pop up in Capitol Park back in October and rumor has it that they are/were to open up on Library Street. It has been a couple months since the pop up but sometimes retailers take forever to open in Downtown Detroit [[Sahara Grill, Savage X Fenty, Peach Cobbler Factory are still not open yet for example).

The reason for the delayed opening of these 3 businesses might be waiting on the approval of building inspectors to complete the build outs. I had spoken to management of retail and restaurants in the past who had informed me that their plans for timely openings had been delayed due to the very slow responses of building inspectors to give the final approval.

**DetroitSoldier** · March-02-23, 12:53 PM

Sign me up for another food hall.

I'm kind of a food hall snob. I try to visit one everywhere I travel. Every single one is unique to the community it is located in. A lot of the best culinary artists don't have the capital to open a full scale restaurant, and especially so with the current cost of construction. So stalls in food halls provide a great resource for showcasing their skills with far less overhead.

Some halls are located in historic old venues and some are new construction. People are attracted to them because they offer an experience unlike traditional restaurants and food courts.

The people behind the Detroit Shipping Co. are planning to open a similar concept in the old Lansing City Market--a historic site that has had more failed plans in the last 10 years than I can remember. If Lansing can support a single food hall concept in a very car-dependent area, then Campus Martius' foot traffic alone can certainly support one.

Lansing: https://www.lansingshuffle.com/

Off the top of my head I can think of over 100 food halls I've visited around the world, but here are a couple of my favorites:

Copenhagen: https://reffen.dk/en/

St Louis: https://www.cityfoundrystl.com/food-hall

Helsinki: https://vanhakauppahalli.fi/

Seattle: https://melrosemarketseattle.com/

**kuuma** · March-02-23, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitSoldier

The people behind the Detroit Shipping Co. are planning to open a similar concept in the old Lansing City Market--a historic site that has had more failed plans in the last 10 years than I can remember. If Lansing can support a single food hall concept in a very car-dependent area, then Campus Martius' foot traffic alone can certainly support one.

Lansing: https://www.lansingshuffle.com/

Lansing Shuffle is open! The owner of those projects is also working toward a hotel concept next door to DSC, so we'll find out if hotel space adds additional volume to the food hall model [[since they're attempting it my guess is they also find this likely). There are some older renderings floating around somewhere. That space is definitely doing well, as will another food hall style space at Campus Martius or Cadillac Place or whatever they're branding it as now.

I think Bedrock's proof of concept was the tented food/drink area in the holiday market that was pretty consistently packed. No doubt they'll make it work, I'd just have liked to see something taller and denser there above the market and venue. I feel like it would be so easy to lease apartments right in the center there.

**royce** · March-03-23, 05:01 AM

DetroitSoldier wrote:

"Some halls are located in historic old venues and some are new construction. People are attracted to them because they offer an experience unlike traditional restaurants and food courts."

I've never been to a food hall. How is it different from a "food court?"

**Richard** · March-03-23, 08:42 AM

Food court is fast food,grab n go mostly national chains

Food hall is usually local restaurants and butcher shops,so instead of restaurants being scattered about the city they are all in one location in a relaxed atmosphere.

It’s more of a socialization or dining experience thing verses eat yer burger and git of a food court.

I am not sure about them as far as success rate,they seem to come and go,sense it is mostly independent restaurants,they are subject to success and failure like anyplace else,they usually are working in a confined footprint and offer a more limited menus.

I have not seen any last more then a couple of years,personally I would not be building a building for that specific use.

Food hall is like a mall,except it is food instead of shoe stores next to clothing stores etc.

You cannot be posh if you go to a food court,it’s like what somebody else said,take something that has been around forever,put a twist on it and call it something else and it is instantly cool.

Maybe cause I am old but if I go to a sit down restaurant it is to relax away from the hustle n bustle,food halls are not exactly an intimate experience.

People do not go to bars like they used to,so they are looking for creative ways to fill that void,it was gyms for awhile.

**DetroitSoldier** · March-03-23, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by royce

DetroitSoldier wrote:

"Some halls are located in historic old venues and some are new construction. People are attracted to them because they offer an experience unlike traditional restaurants and food courts."

I've never been to a food hall. How is it different from a "food court?"

Food courts tend to be chains or full menu restaurants [[think 90's malls or airports) whereas food halls have vendors serving very a very short menu of a few things really well instead of 2 pages of things that are average.

**stasu1213** · March-04-23, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitSoldier

Food courts tend to be chains or full menu restaurants [[think 90's malls or airports) whereas food halls have vendors serving very a very short menu of a few things really well instead of 2 pages of things that are average.

Some of these vendors prices are much higher than national chains