The Macomb County Question

[TTime]

You're right that most cities don't have the depopulation we have, but most do in fact have sprawl worse than us. Chicago is a mega sprawl area and Metra is pretty good at commuter rail. Los Angeles was in our boat, but over the past 30 years they've done incredible work in investing in transit.

And if we want to repopulate our city, we need transit. People aren't going to live in a city without transit.

Ok fine but you can't justify the expense until the city is repopulated. The inbound, outbound and contained number of commuters in Chicago and LA are so much higher that there's no sense comparing them to Detroit. Please find me another example that would be more appropriate if you don't mind.

[dtowncitylover]

Ok fine but you can't justify the expense until the city is repopulated. The inbound, outbound and contained number of commuters in Chicago and LA are so much higher that there's no sense comparing them to Detroit. Please find me another example that would be more appropriate if you don't mind.

Well for one, no one was saying we were going to build a Metra system. In fact, there was one regional rail line to start out with in the master plan between Ann Arbor and Detroit.

Transit and re-population is not chicken or the egg. They grow with each other. And the time table of implementing transit pieces was in place. We aren't going to repopulate the city if transit isn't also being built. We don't grow without it.

[TTime]

My guess is that there is no guarantee that the city grows with a new transit system but let me ask what are the most rapidly growing cities in the U.S. and what are their transit systems like? Are there any cities without mass transit that are growing quickly? I would also be interested to see which areas locally are growing the fastest and see what their transit options are.

[dtowncitylover]

My guess is that there is no guarantee that the city grows with a new transit system but let me ask what are the most rapidly growing cities in the U.S. and what are their transit systems like? Are there any cities without mass transit that are growing quickly? I would also be interested to see which areas locally are growing the fastest and see what their transit options are.

Lol is this serious? Seattle, Minneapolis, Washington, DC are all experiencing population increases and have all invested in transit. If we want to compete with them we need transit now not when we *might* get a population boom out of nowhere.

Most cities without mass transit that are growing are well below 500,000 people and therefore mass transit, beside buses, isn't as needed.

Areas that are "growing" locally here are not growing because business is booming, it's because people in Royal Oak or Warren or Westland are moving out to Shelby or Lake Orion, or Canton. That's not growth, that's transfer.

[TTime]

I am very serious. You mentioned that most cities without mass transit that are growing are under 500k residents so mass transit isn't needed. I guess you're not much for trends because the way Detroit's population has plummeted over the last 50 years that's the direction it's headed and in your words mass transit [[other than buses) for cities that small isn't needed. Newsflash ...Detroit is no longer a large city.

[dtowncitylover]

I am very serious. You mentioned that most cities without mass transit that are growing are under 500k residents so mass transit isn't needed. I guess you're not much for trends because the way Detroit's population has plummeted over the last 50 years that's the direction it's headed and in your words mass transit [[other than buses) for cities that small isn't needed. Newsflash ...Detroit is no longer a large city.

But our metropolitan area is still very wealthy and if we want to curb, stabilize, and grow the city we need transit.

[TTime]

But our metropolitan area is still very wealthy and if we want to curb, stabilize, and grow the city we need transit.

If only we lived in a city that was growing, instead of shrinking, we wouldn't have to participate in conversations like this we would simply have the problem of figuring out out how the hell to move all the damn people around not discussing whether or not building mass transit is warranted....and you said it wasn't a case of the chicken or the egg? Ha!

[dtowncitylover]

If only we lived in a city that was growing, instead of shrinking, we wouldn't have to participate in conversations like this we would simply have the problem of figuring out out how the hell to move all the damn people around not discussing whether or not building mass transit is warranted....and you said it wasn't a case of the chicken or the egg? Ha!

You're entire "argument" if there is one really, reeks of "just blow it up and start over". Such a simple mind you must have...

But in fact, we do have the foundations of a growing city. We just other factors, like transit, education, and public safety to align just right. If we want to stop from shrinking we have to real solutions and transit is a real solution. And it's not as if Detroit doesn't deserve a better bus and even streetcar system either.

[Junjie]

If only we lived in a city that was growing, instead of shrinking, we wouldn't have to participate in conversations like this we would simply have the problem of figuring out out how the hell to move all the damn people around not discussing whether or not building mass transit is warranted....and you said it wasn't a case of the chicken or the egg? Ha!

Building good transit isn't about whether a city meets some arbitrary population threshold. It's just about whether or not you want to have good, frequent, reliable, transit that connects the places with high travel demand. Detroit, as a region, has 4.3 million people. Much smaller metro areas, such as Seattle [[3.7 million), Minneapolis [[3.5 million), Denver [[2.8 million), and Indianapolis [[1.7 million) are making substantial investments in regional transit because they want their cities to grow in the specific ways that transit encourages:

- Density around stations, giving people who want an urban lifestyle attractive places to live without moving to Chicago or NYC.
- Density around stations, siphoning off population that will tend to walk or use transit and thereby reducing auto use in the region. Arlington, VA has grown for the past 3 decades while reducing traffic because they clustered development around Metro stops. This also preserves single-family home neighborhoods and open space.
- Regions where those too poor to use a car still have the freedom to access opportunities across the region. This fights unemployment and boosts the economy.
- Ditto for those too young, too old, too disabled, or whatever.
- The network effect on real estate values that lifts property tax returns and thus generates funds for other priorities. Property is generally more valuable when it is well connected to other places that people want to go.

Deciding not to build regional transit is a conscious decision to give up all of these benefits. It's also effectively saying that you think the development strategy that the Detroit area has pursued since the 1950s has been a big success and shouldn't be changed.

[TTime]

Just so you know, I relied on mass transit for 8 years in a big city and loved it but I am simply not convinced that this region needs it or knows how to pull it off. One thing I'm pretty certain of is that busses [[when done right) can be a damn good way to move people around and the really nice thing about buses is that you can change the routes as populations change and needs change.

[Junjie]

Just so you know, I relied on mass transit for 8 years in a big city and loved it but I am simply not convinced that this region needs it or knows how to pull it off. One thing I'm pretty certain of is that busses [[when done right) can be a damn good way to move people around and the really nice thing about buses is that you can change the routes as populations change and needs change.

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree on "needs." Sure, Detroit can choose not to build transit, but since everyone else is it will only be less and less competitive and continue to drive away people, businesses, and dollars that seek out transit-oriented urban areas. Not to mention the 30% of city residents with no cars whom we constantly hear should just "get a job" - significantly easier when one can travel to said job.

Buses can definitely be a great solution, and that's pretty much all the RTA proposal was with the exception of the rail line to Ann Arbor.

[Hypestyles]

Macomb needs a new version of The Butterfly. It should be marketed to a multicultural audience, and accessible by bus.

[Bigdd]

Does anyone know the cost per passenger mile for the current system in Detroit and the area and how it compares to well run cities [[not Chicago)?

It was my understanding that it was WAY higher than it should be [[by perhaps 2x),.. and that there's a ton of waste, corruption and miss-management.

If that's true,... throwing even more money at it would only make things worse.

Perhaps fire everyone including the unions and start fresh? That would get the suburbs on board.

[Junjie]

Does anyone know the cost per passenger mile for the current system in Detroit and the area and how it compares to well run cities [[not Chicago)?

It was my understanding that it was WAY higher than it should be [[by perhaps 2x),.. and that there's a ton of waste, corruption and miss-management.

If that's true,... throwing even more money at it would only make things worse.

Perhaps fire everyone including the unions and start fresh? That would get the suburbs on board.

I gathered some data from the Federal Transit Administration on expenses and compared it to passenger miles for the year 2013. I'm not an expert so if this is wrong please correct me, but as best as I can tell this is data only for buses operated by the respective agencies. I also tried to include a cross-section of cities and transit agencies. Here are the sources:

Ridership [[2015 APTA Public Transportation Fact Book PDF)

Expenses [[Federal Transit Administration NTD, "2013 Table 12: Transit Operating Expenses by Mode Type of Service and Function")

Here's the graph. The upshot is that it doesn't seem like Detroit [[either DDOT or SMART) is anywhere near the high end of costs/passenger-mile:

[Bham1982]

More incentive for me to leave the region as soon as I am able.

Still no buses on Hall Road.. Oh well....

I think Macomb County sucks and many residents are racist dummies and have no problem being labeled a "liberal elitist" or whatever, but Hall Road is so horribly designed that transit makes no sense under any circumstances. I don't think you could possibly design a less pedestrian/transit-oriented arterial.

[ndavies]

I think Macomb County sucks and many residents are racist dummies and have no problem being labeled a "liberal elitist" or whatever, but Hall Road is so horribly designed that transit makes no sense under any circumstances. I don't think you could possibly design a less pedestrian/transit-oriented arterial.

Sorry, But stereotyping an entire county as racist dummies is just as bad as the Racism you are railing against. Stereotyping an entire county as racist is racism at it's finest.

[Bham1982]

This thread attempts to make Macomb County sound like it belong in Kentucky or Tennessee.

If you google Michigan counties by per capita income - you would see Macomb County has a median household income of $54,000.

Because of the auto industry, which is spinning off a gusher of record profits, leading to huge, unprecedented bonuses.

And even though Obama saved the domestic auto industry [[with Republicans fighting him at every term), the dummies in Macomb voted for Trump, who has promised protectionist policies sure to decimate the auto industry. Macomb County is the most auto-oriented county in the entire U.S., BTW.

IMO this election, more than anything was about white nationalism. Even economic rationale and self interest was cast aside. You have guys with 10th grade level education making very good salaries doing very low-skill jobs who would rather stick it to "the blacks" than anything else.

[Bham1982]

My guess is that there is no guarantee that the city grows with a new transit system but let me ask what are the most rapidly growing cities in the U.S. and what are their transit systems like? Are there any cities without mass transit that are growing quickly? I would also be interested to see which areas locally are growing the fastest and see what their transit options are.

Houston is the fastest growing major U.S. metro area in recent decades, and basically has the same crappy transit as Detroit. Phoenix and Dallas are also very fast growing, with very poor transit.

The cities with the best transit are generally slow-growing. Not arguing causation, though.

[Bham1982]

Sorry, But stereotyping an entire county as racist dummies is just as bad as the Racism you are railing against. Stereotyping an entire county as racist is racism at it's finest.

No, I never "stereotyped an entire county as racist dummies"; you made that up. Do you understand the meaning of the word "many"?

And, no, calling out racism isn't "racism at its finest". The "I know you are but what am I" defense is an exceedingly stupid one.

[ndavies]

So you never typed this and I didn't copy it directly form your post?

"I think Macomb County sucks and many residents are racist"

[Bham1982]

So you never typed this and I didn't copy it directly form your post?

"I think Macomb County sucks and many residents are racist"

Yes, that was exactly my post.

You then claimed that I "stereotyped an entire county as racist dummies". I did no such thing. I never even claimed most Macomb residents are racist or stupid, to say nothing of all.

But I do think there are many, many bigoted and dumb voters in Macomb, given the propensity to vote for a white nationalist who have promised to harm the auto industry, which is the county's lifeblood. I can only assume many voters are either A. Stupid or B. Willing to put race above economics.

[ndavies]

Your statement is Stereotyping. The vary basis of racisim.

[ndavies]

Your statement is Stereotyping. The vary basis of racisim.

You haven't met these people, how do you know they are racist? Just because they are unwilling to pay for something they will never use, they are racist? And if you're trying to get them to change their views, calling them racist isn't going to help.

[Bham1982]

Your statement is Stereotyping. The vary basis of racisim.

Um, no, data on county-based election patterns isn't "stereotyping". We know how Macomb votes, and why they vote the way they do.

Data isn't "racist". Facts aren't "biased". That's about the silliest thing I've heard on DYes lately. But voting for a white nationalist likely is motivated by racism, at least among many voters.

[Bham1982]

Your statement is Stereotyping. The vary basis of racisim.

You haven't met these people, how do you know they are racist?

What does this question mean? Do I have to meet every member of the KKK before making an assertion that they are likely guided by racism? Do we need to dig up Hitler before determining whether he had bias?

Just because they are unwilling to pay for something they will never use, they are racist?

What does this mean? Macomb residents who voted for Trump did so because "they are unwilling to pay for something they will never use"? Like a formal education, or library?

And if you're trying to get them to change their views, calling them racist isn't going to help.

What would help combating racism, in your view? Why should racists not be called out when they are threatening and attacking others?