The Macomb County Question

[ABetterDetroit]

WALLY failed because it seemed like no one truly cared about the project. Yes there was some talk about it, a page on SEMCOG's website, but for the most part there was no traction probably because there was no true funding source. I've never heard of a private service being talked about in the WALLY plan. And if it's anything like pre-Amtrak trains, it's going to end up be public anyways.

The RTA is completely different because there was to be a funding source, there was a master plan, and the RTA itself was the authority, and all we had to was approve it. WALLY had no funding source, it hasn't been planned very well, and AATA wanted Livingston County to join in creating WALLY but they said no.

And you're right, you do want to be part of a region. So let the RTA scrap all Macomb County routes and move on without them.

This is a rock solid plan, make a villain out of the regions that will not support the tax vehicle then go forward without them!

Lets call it "opt out". Clearly no other geographic locale will feel this way so let's do it all over with each community deciding if they want in.

Pay no mind that the decades long problem just skipped right back to where it's been firmly stuck long ago and then failed to solve the issue.

The most important part is to NEVER fight for a tax vehicle that could gain wider support and potentially raise even more of the needed funds.

[dtowncitylover]

This is a rock solid plan, make a villain out of the regions that will not support the tax vehicle then go forward without them!

Lets call it "opt out". Clearly no other geographic local will feel this way so let's do it all over with each community deciding if they want in.

Pay no mind that the decades long problem just skipped right back to where it's been firmly stuck long ago and then failed to solve the issue.

The most important part is to NEVER fight for a tax vehicle that could gain wider support that could potentially raise even more of the needed funds.

As I said in my OP, I am joking. I want Macomb County to be part of any RTA and the region but it's frustrating when they vote against their own self interests because they can't see the forest for the trees.

[GMan]

dtowncitylover;517266]WALLY failed because it seemed like no one truly cared about the project. Yes there was some talk about it, a page on SEMCOG's website, but for the most part there was no traction probably because there was no true funding source. I've never heard of a private service being talked about in the WALLY plan. And if it's anything like pre-Amtrak trains, it's going to end up be public anyways.
Great Lakes Central RR was the one who proposed starting a service over existing tracks in their operating R.O.W. Problem is to make it feasable tracks had to be upgraded to speed standards to allow for a reasonable route time. In comes state federal dollars. Next problem if speed is increased what about all the ungated grade crossings? Oh and federal dollars accepted mean you have to have to meet the A.D.A. standards from the start. Well now we need updated passenger cars. More state money. What about P.T.C. so system can operate with freight traffic? More federal dollars.... Now it's been 5 years we need to update the feasibility study....more money spent. Livingston county said no to local funding because their stats show a more easterly commute for the majority of their residents, not a southerly one... A.A. still wants it though so hey lets wrap it up in the E/W line......More studies needed. Hey how about a A.A. to Traverse City train...more studies. Oh yeah A.A. wants to update the Amtrak Station... More studies on best location and least enviromental impact...... and on and on and on...... Private consultants have made money over ten years and STILL NO SERVICE.....

The RTA is completely different because there was to be a funding source, there was a master plan, and the RTA itself was the authority, and all we had to was approve it. WALLY had no funding source, it hasn't been planned very well, and AATA wanted Livingston County to join in creating WALLY but they said no. See Above for this reason.
RTA should look at merging city / suburb lines and operate a few years with those budgets and savings before asking for a millage.

Ballot proposal could read.. "should the separate operated entities of DDOT and SMART be merged to take advantage of operating efficiencies gained through elimination of duplicate services competing for a limited ridership and to maximize the return on federal dollars with the savings going to expanding formerly under served routes throughout the combined region? YES/NO

​Hey it would have been a start.

And you're right, you do want to be part of a region. So let the RTA scrap all Macomb County routes and move on without them.[/QUOTE]

[ABetterDetroit]

As I said in my OP, I am joking. I want Macomb County to be part of any RTA and the region but it's frustrating when they vote against their own self interests because they can't see the forest for the trees.

I understand your frustration. I feel the same way. The villan is Lansing. It has been for a long time. They have effectively shut off the proven viable tax vehicles for any regional transit in the metro area. Look at where it passed last month for the proof. The only real exception is California, the difference between them and Michigan in real estate values and market stability is much more vast than the laughable low rates in CA.

The war should be with Lansing, not battling amongst ourselves. That has proven to be a exercise in futility.

http://t4america.org/maps-tools/stat...ng/2016-votes/

[GMan]

=ABetterDetroit;517275]I understand your frustration. I feel the same way. The villan is Lansing. It has been for a long time. They have effectively shut off the proven viable tax vehicles for any regional transit in the metro area. Look at where it passed last month for the proof.

What did Lansing do to prevent Macomb county residents from voting themselves a tax increase for transit if they wanted it??

The only real exception is California, the difference between them and Michigan in real estate values and market stability is much more vast than the laughable low rates in CA.

The war should be with Lansing, not battling amongst ourselves. That has proven to be a exercise in futility.

http://t4america.org/maps-tools/stat...ng/2016-votes/[/QUOTE

No problem is too big if we only spend MORE money!!!


Did the Qline start out going to Pontiac?

Did Detroit Build all the old interurbans that used to exist connecting these outlying communities to the city of Detroit.

I think you will find that problems are best solved in small segments and expanded or combined when logic dictates.

[dtowncitylover]

What did Lansing do to prevent Macomb county residents from voting themselves a tax increase for transit if they wanted it??

No problem is too big if we only spend MORE money!!!


Did the Qline start out going to Pontiac?

Did Detroit Build all the old interurbans that used to exist connecting these outlying communities to the city of Detroit.

I think you will find that problems are best solved in small segments and expanded or combined when logic dictates.

Well for one the prohibition on local sales taxes enshrined in the state constitution. And secondly, the fact that the RTA legislation was written by politicians and not transit experts. So they wrote in that BRT is the preferred mode of rapid transit to be used in our transit system. Instead of LRT, which would be more attractive. There is a real bus bias in metro Detroit because of the "empty bus" argument. And then let's not forget about Engler's vindictive veto against DART and Granholm's laziness not to do anything about it.

The original DDOT DTOGS plan was up to 8 Mile, but the corporate entities that are building it have only enough funds up to the Boulevard. It would be great to have it up to Royal Oak!

I don't believe for a second that small steps is what we need. We need a grand design, an ambitious plan for metro transit. We had it. We lost it. Now we live with the consequences because people don't understand how "normal" metro areas work and think places like Manhattan and Chicago are quirky but fun to visit.

[GMan]

Well for one the prohibition on local sales taxes enshrined in the state constitution. And secondly, the fact that the RTA legislation was written by politicians and not transit experts. So they wrote in that BRT is the preferred mode of rapid transit to be used in our transit system. Instead of LRT, which would be more attractive. There is a real bus bias in metro Detroit because of the "empty bus" argument. And then let's not forget about Engler's vindictive veto against DART and Granholm's laziness not to do anything about it.

The original DDOT DTOGS plan was up to 8 Mile, but the corporate entities that are building it have only enough funds up to the Boulevard. It would be great to have it up to Royal Oak!

I don't believe for a second that small steps is what we need. We need a grand design, an ambitious plan for metro transit. We had it. We lost it. Now we live with the consequences because people don't understand how "normal" metro areas work and think places like Manhattan and Chicago are quirky but fun to visit.

Well this was nothing more than a BRT proposal anyway. It would have gobbled up the Q line and maybe expanded it which is still a possibility in the future if it proves successful.
Yes we did have it all, but not with this plan but going back to when the interurbans ran between regions with common commerce and jobs for people to go between. Problem was success and individual wealth did in the need for most of the system. Ah the automobile, friend and foe.

[Junjie]

I don't believe for a second that small steps is what we need. We need a grand design, an ambitious plan for metro transit. We had it. We lost it. Now we live with the consequences because people don't understand how "normal" metro areas work and think places like Manhattan and Chicago are quirky but fun to visit.

More and more I think that the RTA's main failure [[and, again, noting that it only failed by 1% of the vote) was the lack of fundamental education on transit. And not just in terms of the economic development arguments, but in terms of how regional transit systems even operate. A couple examples:

- I had a friend who balked at the "large" amount of money being asked for, which was $4.7 billion over 20 years. He was surprised to learn that the annual budget for WMATA in DC is just shy of $3 billion.

- People complain a lot about "empty" buses. But of course empty buses are just part of operations. They might be driving away from the main flow at rush hour, or just starting or finishing a route, or simply existing in the middle of the day so that someone is free to take transit in the morning with the knowledge that they can go elsewhere at noon if needed. None of this stuff ever gets explained clearly.

- We are trapped in the traditional "lanes for cars versus lanes for buses" arguments. This needs to be reoriented around "moving the most people in the given road space." If buses are carrying e.g. 25% of the people, then they should get 25% of the road space etc.

- People have no idea how land use and transit service go together. Thus all the people in northern exurban Macomb and Oakland complaining about a lack of service to areas that are, almost by definition, impossible to serve efficiently with transit.

I don't know exactly what the solution is here. A series of talks? Good YouTube videos? Just better messaging during the campaign? But people's lack of experience/knowledge when it comes to transit in the region needs to somehow be addressed given the other arbitrary limitations we face [[no regional sales tax, no rail).

[TTime]

I love it when Dyes'ers bitch about Detroit being unfairly stereotyped and then they go out and completely stereotype and judge the people of the surrounding burbs. The funniest part is that they are too dumb or self absorbed to see the hypocrisy....restores my faith in humanity. What a region!

[dtowncitylover]

I love it when Dyes'ers bitch about Detroit being unfairly stereotyped and then they go out and completely stereotype and judge the people of the surrounding burbs. The funniest part is that they are too dumb or self absorbed to see the hypocrisy....restores my faith in humanity. What a region!

I would actually say, on the whole, this region is pretty dumb.

I didn't say Macomb Countyiers are stupid, I'm just saying they're ignorant about what they just voted against and they used shallow reasons as excuses. It's really neat they voted for the DIA and Zoo, but those don't do what transit can actually do for an entire region's economy.

Stereotypes are rooted in truth [[whether we like to admit it or not), and for the most part Macomb County just proved it theirs.

[Bucket]

Well for one the prohibition on local sales taxes enshrined in the state constitution. And secondly, the fact that the RTA legislation was written by politicians and not transit experts. So they wrote in that BRT is the preferred mode of rapid transit to be used in our transit system. Instead of LRT, which would be more attractive. There is a real bus bias in metro Detroit because of the "empty bus" argument. And then let's not forget about Engler's vindictive veto against DART and Granholm's laziness not to do anything about it.

The original DDOT DTOGS plan was up to 8 Mile, but the corporate entities that are building it have only enough funds up to the Boulevard. It would be great to have it up to Royal Oak!

I don't believe for a second that small steps is what we need. We need a grand design, an ambitious plan for metro transit. We had it. We lost it. Now we live with the consequences because people don't understand how "normal" metro areas work and think places like Manhattan and Chicago are quirky but fun to visit.

^^^ This x 1000% ^^^
I remember Engler's lame duck DARTA veto very well as I wrote about it at the time. We might well be enjoying the benefits of rapid regional transit today were it not for this.

A friend and former transit executive expressed to me your view about the foolhardiness of the MI legislature playing transit engineer through the RTA enabling legislation. That work should have been left to the transportation planners at the RTA, informed by public comment.

One could argue that the best chance we had for truly regional transit was in the late 70s. SEMTA and DDOT had drafted an MOU to merge. The People Mover was funded, but not as the 2 mile loop we all know. It would have run up the arterials to the suburbs and provided something much more like the Chicago L. It all fell apart due to regional politics and our inability to create a regional transportation planning organization, as well as federal defunding of transit projects after Reagan took office. SEMTA forged ahead anyway and the downtown People Mover circulator is all that we're left with.

I feel that history has just repeated itself.

[313WX]

This thread attempts to make Macomb County sound like it belong in Kentucky or Tennessee.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...rm=warrentucky

[TTime]

http://www.apple.com/retail/partridgecreek/ This should chap some asses

[Towne Cluber]

I would actually say, on the whole, this region is pretty dumb.

I didn't say Macomb Countyiers are stupid, I'm just saying they're ignorant about what they just voted against and they used shallow reasons as excuses. It's really neat they voted for the DIA and Zoo, but those don't do what transit can actually do for an entire region's economy.

Stereotypes are rooted in truth [[whether we like to admit it or not), and for the most part Macomb County just proved it theirs.

What about Detroiters that voted against it? Even [[some) D-DOT drivers were telling passengers to vote no over concerns about "regionalism", "loss of control", "loss of jobs". WDIV ran a story about it.

[eastland]

The RTA failed miserably in Wayne County, if you exclude Detroit. It got buried at all ends of Wayne County -- Grosse Pointe Woods, Brownstown Township, Livonia, Westland and many more. The only people the RTA organizers must have spoken to were pro-transit people that went to their town halls and forums. I just hope the RTA's ill-fated and ill-conceived effort doesn't sink the SMART renewal in 2 years.

[313WX]

What about Detroiters that voted against it?

Well, so much for that question, lol

The RTA failed miserably in Wayne County, if you exclude Detroit.

[Towne Cluber]

Well, so much for that question, lol

Unfortunately, the lack of turnout and no votes means so much for that question indeed!

[GMan]

[QUOTE=dtowncitylover.........

I don't believe for a second that small steps is what we need. We need a grand design, an ambitious plan for metro transit. We had it. We lost it. Now we live with the consequences because people don't understand how "normal" metro areas work and think places like Manhattan and Chicago are quirky but fun to visit.[/QUOTE]

Well voters rejected this grand design. So what now?

[dtowncitylover]

Well voters rejected this grand design. So what now?

A better education campaign that's longer than a month, with quad-county wide town halls so everyone is involved. If the Yes campaign had started in May off the bat and held info meetings from New Haven to Manchester, Brownstown to Lake Orion, it would've passed.

[GMan]

A better education campaign that's longer than a month, with quad-county wide town halls so everyone is involved. If the Yes campaign had started in May off the bat and held info meetings from New Haven to Manchester, Brownstown to Lake Orion, it would've passed.

Okay, besides starting the message earlier, what would you change:
Funding Mechanism?
Implementation timetable?
Mobility mechanism?

Also, what is your view of Car Share programs and driverless vehicles?
Do you think that they will change the need for an expansive mass transit network?

[dtowncitylover]

Okay, besides starting the message earlier, what would you change:
Funding Mechanism?
Implementation timetable?
Mobility mechanism?

Also, what is your view of Car Share programs and driverless vehicles?
Do you think that they will change the need for an expansive mass transit network?

Car shares also recognize the need for mass transit. So any debate about Uber/Lyft is moot. Uber and Lyft aren't economic catalysts. So no I don't think it will change anything.

I would change nothing because nothing can be changed. Do you think Lansing would voted yes on local sales tax allowance? No. The implementation timetable was just fine, it probably needs to be updated because we are going to lose 2 or maybe 4 years but the time span is just fine.

[GMan]

Car shares also recognize the need for mass transit. So any debate about Uber/Lyft is moot. Uber and Lyft aren't economic catalysts. So no I don't think it will change anything.

I would change nothing because nothing can be changed. Do you think Lansing would voted yes on local sales tax allowance? No. The implementation timetable was just fine, it probably needs to be updated because we are going to lose 2 or maybe 4 years but the time span is just fine.

So BRT is the mechanism then. How far does the economic catalyst zone extend from the fixed stops that are proposed? Too close and you lose the rapid part. Too far and you are picking the winner / losers.
I once took a local bus from a village near Cambridge Eng. to the city center. I was one of three riders on the bus. Granted it only ran twice in morning and twice in evening. Service has since stopped due to low demand vs. cost.
Village was not served by rail and nearest service was 7 miles away.
Population still grew despite lack of transportation options. The downside is that green areas were built on to accommodate additional shopping options. They didn't build it and they still came. Now granted it had a world recognized institution within 20 miles.
Detroit still needs that draw. It's happening finally, slowly but surely.
I bet we will see the E/W commuter between A.A. and Detroit before we get any BRT plan funded.

[Detroitdave]

Here's the kicker, people from this region travel to other areas and rave at how great the mass transit is in X city and won't fund one in their own area ?
Efficient mass transit is not cheap and it's not going to get any cheaper the longer you wait.
If folks that travel and admires other cities and countries great mass transit , it didn't come cheap and we have to work together.
Remember that next time you travel to X location and admire how cool their mass transit is and wonder " why can't we have something cool like this in SE Michigan?"
Remember, "why should I vote for that how is that gonna help me" that is why .
Now you know why, remember that next time you go to vote for mass transit.
That's how they have such a cool mass transit and we don't

[TTime]

One difference is that those other cities don't have huge zones that have been depopulated and many of those cities don't have our sprawl either so their systems simply make more sense and are easier to implement.

[dtowncitylover]

One difference is that those other cities don't have huge zones that have been depopulated and many of those cities don't have our sprawl either so their systems simply make more sense and are easier to implement.

You're right that most cities don't have the depopulation we have, but most do in fact have sprawl worse than us. Chicago is a mega sprawl area and Metra is pretty good at commuter rail. Los Angeles was in our boat, but over the past 30 years they've done incredible work in investing in transit.

And if we want to repopulate our city, we need transit. People aren't going to live in a city without transit.