Detroit Update: On the Pistons Moving to Little Caesars Arena, and New Soccer Stadium

**Gistok** · October-30-16, 12:02 AM

I think that adding the Pistons does a lot more than just add basketball games to the new arena. Yes, it doubles the number of sporting home games of 41 NHL games along with 41 NBA games.

But also... I believe that the potential razing of the Palace more than doubles the number of arena concerts and events that will be coming to the new Arena. The Palace always had more non game concerts and events than JLA did, so with the Palace events moving to the new arena... the combination of Palace concerts/events and Olympia Entertainments concerts/events will make the new arena the major entertainment venue in Michigan.

And that in turn will help increase the chances of the entire Arena district getting developed. This will likely be the "game changer" that gets the Ilitch's to live up to their promises.

If a soccer arena and ancilliary developments get built on the fail jail site, then Detroit will have the a premier entertainment and sports district practically better than anywhere... with all in one area.... 4 venues for 5 major sports... and an enormous theatre, restaurant and entertainment district mixed in.

The potential of the Ilitch-Gilbert-Gores billionaire developers working together in downtown/midtown, could result in projects beyond our wildest dreams 10 years ago.

**emu steve** · October-30-16, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I think that adding the Pistons does a lot more than just add basketball games to the new arena. Yes, it doubles the number of sporting home games of 41 NHL games along with 41 NBA games.

But also... I believe that the potential razing of the Palace more than doubles the number of arena concerts and events that will be coming to the new Arena. The Palace always had more non game concerts and events than JLA did, so with the Palace events moving to the new arena... the combination of Palace concerts/events and Olympia Entertainments concerts/events will make the new arena the major entertainment venue in Michigan.

And that in turn will help increase the chances of the entire Arena district getting developed. This will likely be the "game changer" that gets the Ilitch's to live up to their promises.

If a soccer arena and ancilliary developments get built on the fail jail site, then Detroit will have the a premier entertainment and sports district practically better than anywhere... with all in one area.... 4 venues for 5 major sports... and an enormous theatre, restaurant and entertainment district mixed in.

The potential of the Ilitch-Gilbert-Gores billionaire developers working together in downtown/midtown, could result in projects beyond our wildest dreams 10 years ago.

I wanted to post that but Gistok beat me to it.

I agree 100%, maybe 1,000%, to what is in this post.

I always had the rose color glasses on even before Gores apparently decided he want to be part of this story.

I can hardly wait until say 4/1/2020 [[opening day Tigers) and see what is happening.

**vetalalumni** · October-30-16, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

We must remember before we get our hopes up too high. It's not official and the only reason the Gores is considering moving the Pistons downtown is from all of the pressure by the people and the NBA. He may opt out of the deal if he can. Gilbert or Illitch may have to end up buying the team from him and move the team downtown themselves. Gores never did have a heart to move the team downtown and typical of Detroit to not get the most important things in the city that would be a win win for the city. Mass Transit, jobs, a major retail store downtown or along Jefferson, a good national chain grocery store downtown, and the Pistons

Retail and grocery anchors would give depth. Additional cultural and family venues as well.

**313WX** · October-30-16, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

We must remember before we get our hopes up too high. It's not official and the only reason the Gores is considering moving the Pistons downtown is from all of the pressure by the people and the NBA. He may opt out of the deal if he can. Gilbert or Illitch may have to end up buying the team from him and move the team downtown themselves. Gores never did have a heart to move the team downtown and typical of Detroit to not get the most important things in the city that would be a win win for the city. Mass Transit, jobs, a major retail store downtown or along Jefferson, a good national chain grocery store downtown, and the Pistons

I will say that downtown would have truly turned the corner when it can attract a basic grocery store like Kroger.

**stasu1213** · October-30-16, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

I will say that downtown would have truly turned the corner when it can attract a basic grocery store like Kroger.

Yes it would. Why would I pay high rent for an area that is a food desert. I might as well live in nearby Grosse Pointe and enjoy the basic amenities that it has for it's residents. Papa Joes was suppose to had opened downtown but that plan was cancelled. The only stores nearby are stores that I would not consider good independent stores for some of the products are outdated and the areas are questionable.

**stasu1213** · October-30-16, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

I have to disagree with you on your assessment. Gores is a billionaire... no one is holding a gun to his head... he's doing what he wants... and only what he wants. It just so happens that IF a move to the new arena is going to happen... then that decision needs to come so that the Pistons infrastructure [[locker rooms, etc) can be incorporated now into the design.

If Gores wasn't all that interested in the team, then he wouldn't have bid on it. I do honestly believe that he WANTS to move downtown... and also WANTS to be a partner with Gilbert in a potential MLS stadium on the Fail Jail site. If he didn't have the heart to move the team downtown... he wouldn't be this far along in the discussions, including finding a site for a practice facility.

In this case, the 800 lb. gorilla happens to be the Ilitch's.

Detroit had always had an 800lb gorilla in the room blocking or slowing developments. Detroit has a history of prolonging opening of smaller venues and retail due to red tapes, pay to play, corruption, and total incompetence in city government and economic growth corporation. I always say I will believe it when I see it. The announcement of the Pistons were suppose to had been Thursday but no official word yet. Illitch may become stubborn in his old ways

**401don** · October-30-16, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

Detroit had always had an 800lb gorilla in the room blocking or slowing developments. Detroit has a history of prolonging opening of smaller venues and retail due to red tapes, pay to play, corruption, and total incompetence in city government and economic growth corporation. I always say I will believe it when I see it. The announcement of the Pistons were suppose to had been Thursday but no official word yet. Illitch may become stubborn in his old ways

If everything - arena, parking, concert revenue etc. is split down the middle this is still a huge cash cow for Ilitch. No chance he turns this down.

**ABetterDetroit** · October-30-16, 11:12 AM

If this deal gets hammered out 2 things happen:

First one is the new arena gets double the guaranteed event nights which is great news for the job market in the service industry in the downtown area.

Second is it appears that Ilitch will get a very big check from Gores assuming that Gores gets his partnership in the new arena and is not just a tenant. This point leeds to the next question. Will Ilitch actually reinvest this check for anything other than more parking for his stadiums? So far there has been no proof that he has interest to venture into housing or commercial real estate other than his renderings. Ilitch will have reached the point of put up or shut up hopefully.

**stasu1213** · October-30-16, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

If this deal gets hammered out 2 things happen:

First one is the new arena gets double the guaranteed event nights which is great news for the job market in the service industry in the downtown area.

Second is it appears that Ilitch will get a very big check from Gores assuming that Gores gets his partnership in the new arena and is not just a tenant. This point leeds to the next question. Will Ilitch actually reinvest this check for anything other than more parking for his stadiums? So far there has been no proof that he has interest to venture into housing or commercial real estate other than his renderings. Ilitch will have reached the point of put up or shut up hopefully.

It will still be a win for Gores even if he is in the arena temporarily until the Pistons have their own arena. One of the biggest negotiation item is whether Gores would just be a tenant or a partner. Did Davidson partnered with Ford when the Pistons played in the Pontiac Silverdome or were they partners in ownership?. I would say that Gores would want to build his own stadium in downtown Detroit. Eventually staying at the Palace when all of the money, action, and excitement are in Detroit would not be in Gores best interest

**401don** · October-30-16, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

It will still be a win for Gores even if he is in the arena temporarily until the Pistons have their own arena. One of the biggest negotiation item is whether Gores would just be a tenant or a partner. Did Davidson partnered with Ford when the Pistons played in the Pontiac Silverdome or were they partners in ownership?. I would say that Gores would want to build his own stadium in downtown Detroit. Eventually staying at the Palace when all of the money, action, and excitement are in Detroit would not be in Gores best interest

Gores will not want his own arena. Picture a pie store with 2 owners that contains the NHL, NBA, concerts & all the other events downtown. The pie generates 100 million of revenue per year. You can open a 2nd store and split the pie in half but you can't make it any bigger. It cost 40 million each yr. to sell the pie. The 2nd store costs almost the same so your profits just dropped from 60 million to 10 million. Why operate your own store when you can have 30 million profits each?

**Gistok** · October-30-16, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

It will still be a win for Gores even if he is in the arena temporarily until the Pistons have their own arena.

Most cities that have both NBA and NHL teams share the same Arena. In fact LA's Staples Center has 2 NBA teams [[Lakers and Clippers) and 1 NHL team [[Kings).

So even with the Red Wings and Pistons sharing the same arena and all the combined concerts by Olympia and Palace Entertainments... the arena will still be empty at least half the year. Some concerts need "buildup" and "take down" time that cannot happen overnight.

Besides there would be no place to build another arena. The west Foxtown property holdouts already said NO.

So there is ZERO likelihood of a separate Arena for the Pistons.... sharing the same arena over an extended period is likely the only card on the table.

**mwilbert** · October-30-16, 06:04 PM

It seems to me that the key part of this potential move was in the Free Press story yesterday, but not in this one:

'"A deal, the source said, would likely include the merger of the entertainment businesses of both entities – Gores’ Palace Sports & Entertainment and the Ilitches’ Olympia Entertainment. A deal to join forces on broadcast rights could be consummated at a later date."

“We don’t have a deal, just so you guys are clear,” Gores said. “But we are talking serious just to be straight with you guys.”'

Assuming they reach an agreement, Gores probably demo's the Palace and builds an office park or something, and instead of having a full share of entertainment company with a badly-located, old facility with high maintenance costs that has to compete with a new facility, instead has a interest in an entertainment company with a new, well-located, more-or-less building with little competition, along with a team that is more valuable in the new location. Of course, this source could be wrong, and the actual terms of such a deal would be critical to how attractive it would be, but at least I can understand how this could potentially make financial sense for Gores, which is what was hard to understand before.

**401don** · October-31-16, 07:04 AM

It is a desirable but still very complex negotiation. If Gores acquires half the arena, then he also acquires half the naming rights. The Little Caesars rights was just moving money from one Ilitch pocket to the other. Now you have to actually put a dollar figure on that and make good on it to Gores.

**Dbest** · October-31-16, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Most cities that have both NBA and NHL teams share the same Arena. In fact LA's Staples Center has 2 NBA teams [[Lakers and Clippers) and 1 NHL team [[Kings).

So even with the Red Wings and Pistons sharing the same arena and all the combined concerts by Olympia and Palace Entertainments... the arena will still be empty at least half the year. Some concerts need "buildup" and "take down" time that cannot happen overnight.

Besides there would be no place to build another arena. The west Foxtown property holdouts already said NO.

So there is ZERO likelihood of a separate Arena for the Pistons.... sharing the same arena over an extended period is likely the only card on the table.

Zero? Keep in mind that Gores is loaded and has some venture capitalist friends in Cali who could probably invest in any project they would like.

This is all about how long Gores will agree to stay in LC arena and not build his own.

Think about it from the Illitches standpoint, if Gores signs only a 5 year deal with no clause against constructing his own facility then what stops him and his team from building a BETTER arena somewhere else?

Sooner or later someone is going to try and make a splash on a big project somewhere else besides greater downtown.

Heres a hypothetical:

Gores partners with Magic Johnson and others to redevelop the old fairgrounds into a entertainment hub, including a Pistons arena.

Remember, they're friends. He's also a known commodity in Silicone Valley. The guy is more of a "mover and shaker" as evidence by the quick move out of AH...

**emu steve** · October-31-16, 08:47 AM

Guys aren't we getting ahead of ourselves?

Let's assume the Pistons move to LCA on a 5, 10, or 15 year lease arrangement [[and I doubt Gores would do five years, that would be very risky for him to have such a short lease).

Maybe in the year 2025 Gores decides he wants his own arena, entertainment venue then he can decide behind the Fox or sure the Fairground site could work.

He will KNOW based on EMPIRICAL evidence if downtown is a huge plus for his team or not.

He should know if the fairgrounds is worth moving from downtown. Would the fairgrounds be kind of a 'destination' where folks drive to and leave after the game is over?

Maybe a move to the fairgrounds would be the beginning of "Gore City." Don't know.

My gut reaction is if the LCA area is by 2020 what we think it can be, I really would think that it would be hard to give that up... As Gistok has posted, Detroit could have 5 pro teams within a short walk from each other. They would all utilize the same parking, have access to the same eateries. By nearby other entertainment venues.

Does Gores move his basketball team AWAY from his soccer team? Why?

But I think we are putting the cart before the horse now...

**hybridy** · October-31-16, 09:39 AM

does anyone know of the debt service obligation on taxpayers if 'district detroit' fails to live up to expectations? what about LCA?

what's the outstanding debt on comerica park and ford field?

**emu steve** · October-31-16, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by hybridy

does anyone know of the debt service obligation on taxpayers if 'district detroit' fails to live up to expectations? what about LCA?

what's the outstanding debt on comerica park and ford field?

I don't understand what you are asking.

Isn't the amount that the city is obligated to and the amount owed to the city [[from the Ilitch operation) a hard number which was disclosed when the city approved the LCA project, bonds?

Isn't this project FINANCIALLY to the city essentially an arena?

If Ilitches et al. spend 1B or 2B on development the payments to the city to retire the bond is the same. Right???

How would District Detroit not live up to its expectations?

**drjeff** · October-31-16, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

I will say that downtown would have truly turned the corner when it can attract a basic grocery store like Kroger.

What major city has a grocery store in the central business district? None that I've lived in.

**dtowncitylover** · October-31-16, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by drjeff

What major city has a grocery store in the central business district? None that I've lived in.

There's a Jewel-Osco, Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, and Mariano's all in downtown Chicago.

**mikeg19** · October-31-16, 12:25 PM

The Piston's should move to LCA, permanently. 4 Pro sports teams with separate stadiums is such a waste. There's no reason for another stadium. I think there are only 1 or 2 cities in North America that have independent stadiums for all sports. Plus with the possibility of soccer downtown adding another stadium, it just seems like too much.

**gumby** · October-31-16, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by drjeff

What major city has a grocery store in the central business district? None that I've lived in.

Here is one in Cleveland http://constantinosmarket.com/

Pittsburgh https://www.marketstreetgrocery.com

If you want one in Michigan how about Grand Rapids? http://www.grandcentralmarketgr.com/

Should I go on?

**Scottathew** · October-31-16, 01:13 PM

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/sport...is-not-falling

“It is important to recognize that the city’s $56M total annual budget includes total annual tax revenue from the arena of approximately $174,000; in other words, the sky is not falling.”

**ekleezy** · October-31-16, 01:53 PM

If Gores is able to get his soccer stadium at the fail jail site, is it possible that he would want to consolidate MLS and the Pistons into that stadium? It couldn't be an open-air stadium, then, but I haven't heard that site discussed as a future option at all. Is it not possible?

**401don** · October-31-16, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by ekleezy

If Gores is able to get his soccer stadium at the fail jail site, is it possible that he would want to consolidate MLS and the Pistons into that stadium? It couldn't be an open-air stadium, then, but I haven't heard that site discussed as a future option at all. Is it not possible?

Yes, and hold the Olympics there too! This thread has officially jumped the shark.

**emu steve** · October-31-16, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

The Piston's should move to LCA, permanently. 4 Pro sports teams with separate stadiums is such a waste. There's no reason for another stadium. I think there are only 1 or 2 cities in North America that have independent stadiums for all sports. Plus with the possibility of soccer downtown adding another stadium, it just seems like too much.

Agree.

My point has always been having a MLB stadium, a basketball/hockey arena, football stadium and a soccer stadium within walking distance of each other is perfect IMHO.

I hope and pray for the good of all that the 'business partnership' between the Ilitches and Gores works for the benefit of all and the 'business partnership' between Gilbert and Gores [[for a soccer team and stadium) works for all, again, including the city of Detroit and sports fan in S.E. MI.

After losing teams to the suburbs, population loss, bankruptcy, etc. etc. I can feel the momentum shifting big time toward this aspect of Detroit's rebound.