Detroit readies for new residents "city’s decades of population decline is reversing”

[Scottathew]

I find this concept puzzling. Most successful cities are filled with transitional people. Manhattan is a revolving door. San Francisco real estate prices are not conducive for raising a family.

Excellent point. I get called out by my friends when I cheerleader for Detroit and point out the good things. They'll ask me, "When are you moving from Rochester Hills to Detroit"?

However, if I were single or married without children right now, I most likely would be renting a small apartment in the CBD.

[ABetterDetroit]

Excellent point. I get called out by my friends when I cheerleader for Detroit and point out the good things. They'll ask me, "When are you moving from Rochester Hills to Detroit"?

However, if I were single or married without children right now, I most likely would be renting a small apartment in the CBD.

I would argue that what you guys are referring to is a fundamental problem with Detroit schools. Only catering to the young and childless, empty nesters, or low income is not a long term problem solver for this city and its 140 sq. miles of Detroiters. More affluent families with children need to be part of a healthy mix at some point. There is more than enough room for everyone.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_...chool_District

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I like the fact that we are debating whether or not the city is growing. For decades it would not even be a topic for discussion, since everyone would have agreed that people were moving out in droves.

[bust]

Those aren't good examples of what Detroit needs in terms of single family houses. If people want to live in Bloomfield, Rochester Hills, or Canton they are more than welcome but in the city housing should be a mix of multi-family and dense single family houses. Three neighborhoods we need to look to for influence and ideas are Toronto's Bedford Park, Brooklyn's Bay Ridge, and Chicago's West Ridge/West Rogers Park. Any new residential catering to family living needs to be sustainable and suburban like developments from the corner 206 Mile and LBP Freeway are not the way to go.

Yep, seems to me most people who want city living want city living and not pseudo-suburbia. They want to be able to walk to shopping, restaurants, and entertainment, and not be dependent on their cars for everything in life [[which doesn't mean they want to get rid of their cars entirely - they just want the option to leave them at home sometimes). Some mix of mid-rise apartments or condos and, e.g., West Philly-style row houses seems about right to me.

I didn't say I liked them. I was merely pointing out that these developments exist.

The "City Modern" development planned for Brush Park is a much better example of something I like: http://www.citymoderndetroit.com/

But neighborhoods like that aren't for everyone. A whole lot of people want a single family home. There's nothing wrong with people unencumbered by family. Nothing wrong with families either. And nothing wrong with a family who does not have the time, money, patience, or inclination to renovate one of Detroit's neglected historical homes in order for their kids to each have their own bedroom and a back yard for a kiddie pool. I'm guessing some of those who have chosen those newish single-family homes in Detroit may have reasons they chose not to move to Bloomfield, Rochester Hills, or Canton to find something appropriate for their needs. I can imagine a few of them. The price for a comparable home is one.

You guys are absolutely right: Detroit does not need new suburban style single family neighborhoods anywhere close to downtown. But I do think Detroit needs new single family homes, especially in the far corners of the city. There's certainly a lot of room for them there. It's exactly the right place for them. Detroit's pitiful transit system means people living far from downtown will all but certainly be driving a car if they can afford one, anyway.

Coincidentally, I lived in West Philly for several years, and I'm a couple neighborhoods away from Bay Ridge today. The blocks of 100 - 150 year old buildings in those neighborhoods offer a lot of the things I like about living in a city, including good transit. But I wouldn't recommend something like that for Detroit's far east side. Let's start closer to downtown. Orleans Landing seems to be an attempt at a contemporary [[if historicist) take on a neighborhood like those. City Modern, much better. And BTW parts of Bay Ridge have exactly the kinds of single family homes you don't want for Detroit.

I think the development Cisneros' had in mind for Jefferson-Chalmers was a good plan for the neighborhood. As it turned out, maybe too good. I'd like to see someone else try.

[dtowncitylover]

The question of schools & safety and population growth is very chicken or the egg. If we can't grow the neighborhoods [[read: tax base) we can't support better schools and effective public safety. But in order to get those we need to attract a stable population and that's hard when schools and safety are poor.

I would love to have a family and live in the city one day. [[I've been the odd millennial out because I've always longed for neighborhoods like Bagley, University District, or Green Acres). But I'm not gonna live in the city with my family because there's a new arena or brewery opening up. I want transit options, 911 within 15 minutes, and good schools. And Detroiters yesterday, today, and in the future have every right to this.

[jt1]

The question of schools & safety and population growth is very chicken or the egg. If we can't grow the neighborhoods [[read: tax base) we can't support better schools and effective public safety. But in order to get those we need to attract a stable population and that's hard when schools and safety are poor.

I would love to have a family and live in the city one day. [[I've been the odd millennial out because I've always longed for neighborhoods like Bagley, University District, or Green Acres). But I'm not gonna live in the city with my family because there's a new arena or brewery opening up. I want transit options, 911 within 15 minutes, and good schools. And Detroiters yesterday, today, and in the future have every right to this.

I understand and don't disagree with your sentiment however we seem to have a lot of people in metro Detroit that would like to move into the city but are waiting for others to improve it first.

Quite the stalemate of indifference/unwillingness.

[iheartthed]

I can't think of any big city where a good public school system has been a major selling point. Not to say that Detroit shouldn't strive to have a stellar public school system, but it is not critical to a thriving large city.

[dtowncitylover]

I understand and don't disagree with your sentiment however we seem to have a lot of people in metro Detroit that would like to move into the city but are waiting for others to improve it first.

Quite the stalemate of indifference/unwillingness.

Well that's what I'm talking about. I don't mean to sound like a hypocrite, I can't move into the city and buy a house because I'm ready to buy a house yet.

[mwilbert]

I can't think of any big city where a good public school system has been a major selling point. Not to say that Detroit shouldn't strive to have a stellar public school system, but it is not critical to a thriving large city.

I think you are correct. There are some cities where the exam schools are a selling point, but it is hard to think of any where the systems as a whole are that attractive.

[mwilbert]

Until you have safe neighborhoods and good schools,... you WILL NOT see any significant new single family home construction or even renovation.


Yes you will have younger people renting apartments and lofts,.. and even some wealthy rehabbing mansions [[that can afford to send their children to private schools).

Nearly all of the people moving into Detroit are temporary at this point. When they start thinking about having children,.. they will buy a home elsewhere.

I think this is too pessimistic. I know the University District isn't a typical Detroit neighborhood, but it is a Detroit neighborhood, and I am seeing a lot a renovation now. The last vacant house on our street, and the one that was in the worst condition, is now being renovated. It is a big job, because it has been in bad shape for decades, and it is quite large, but prices seem to be high enough to make that worthwhile.

Also I am seeing a lot more kids around lately. The house next door [[also renovated, but never in such bad shape as the one I mentioned previously) now has three school-age girls who go to Gesu and who moved in earlier this year, and there are a number of other young kids on the block, some of whom are new and some who have moved in during the past several years. Since they can afford to buy houses in the neighborhood, they aren't poor, but I don't think you are talking about people who are really wealthy either.

[313WX]

I like the fact that we are debating whether or not the city is growing. For decades it would not even be a topic for discussion, since everyone would have agreed that people were moving out in droves.

The city is not growing. The areas outside of downtown continue to empty out at a steady pace, and in fact, we're probably going to be in for a shock as far as the official numbers in 2020 when they're at least below 600,000 [[quite a few people fled during the 2010-2014 years, when the city was going through bankruptcy).

And numbers not below 500,000 is probably assuming there's not another auto industry downturn between now and then [[right now, with record auto sales, people are waiting things out again).

[313WX]

And another thing I keep emphasizing.

Just because there are more people "bunking" downtown doesn't mean they actually "live" downtown. I'm curious to know how many of these so-called new residents are using suburban addresses to dodge city insurance and taxes...

[Dan Wesson]

It's just talk... cheap and easy.

[casscorridor]

And another thing I keep emphasizing.

Just because there are more people "bunking" downtown doesn't mean they actually "live" downtown. I'm curious to know how many of these so-called new residents are using suburban addresses to dodge city insurance and taxes...

Probably a decent number. It's something that needs to be seriously addressed. Not a crack down on individuals dodging insurance and taxes, but a track down on the high rates of insurance along with lowering of taxes. One of the typical benefits of city living is that you can lose the car and auto insurance because public transport. That sadly isn't possible here, so something needs to be done.

[iheartthed]

And another thing I keep emphasizing.

Just because there are more people "bunking" downtown doesn't mean they actually "live" downtown. I'm curious to know how many of these so-called new residents are using suburban addresses to dodge city insurance and taxes...

Even if they use suburban addresses for their car insurance, they would still be counted as a Detroit resident in the census.

[rex]

Well. More tax base means better schools I would think. For longer than ive been alive city government and DPS leadership has exploited the clusterf%^& to their own ends.... and often enough they get caught but does the govt or school system get the money back? Not sure. Sometimes some of it? Makes me wonder/think criminals take these positions for the sole purpose of exploitation. Perhaps folks in the higher tax bracket paying for schools they themselves do not have children attending will find it in their interest to keep a close eye on those charged with handing money in these institutions. If the city is to see any meaningful renaissance or sustained growth people need to consider it a place where they can raise a family and those moving downtown presumably value education and would want their kids to attend good schools. As far as adding population is concerned... with the projects in motion things may stabilize and turn the corner. IDK. I always believed the path forward was to fix downtown and midtown and grow from the inside toward the out.

[rex]

crime is getting worse in most of the city save for downtown. Police can/will sweep some crimes under the rug. Better for the news and less paper work but its harder to sweep bodies and there are at least 10 more of them this year over last. Population is still going down outside of mid/downtown and there are more murders. Murder up or stable and other crime steadily decreasing over the years makes absolutely zero sense. [[to me atleast) The only way midtown and downtown can continue to grow is if it policed like crazy which probably takes away from law enforcement efforts in areas that need it most... and police need to be about they business around midtown. There are people down there with some money living side by side others with very little. Those staying where Jeffries East used to be and up Peterboro, west of downtown by 96, homes near Brewster Douglass community center, homes near downtown a block off Jefferson by that dumpy little grocerystore

[rex]

there is a considerable amount of open space just west of downtown and within the confines of 96, 75, 10, and 94. Area commonly referred to as Core City i think. A bit of a square delineated by freeways next to midtown. Some nearly empty blocks. Demolition has been underway other there for decades, still some stuff thats ready to come down, and some newer and cheaply constructed development. Would be nice if there was a plan for this area. The newer homes around say 17th st are kept up and this is by no means a slight on their owners are anyone else in the neighborhood in little old upkept homes for that matter but if would be nice if a developer/developers with a bit of a plan came in and started building some modern homes in the 250-400K range and planted some damn trees. I would be happy to see a neighborhood similar to Woodbridge. Even if it was larger homes sectioned into apartments for students. Give it a little density. Throw up some apartment buildings in the 5-8 story range in the 800-1500 a month range. If its safe and convenient to downtown jobs people will come and with them things like cafes, shops, and restaurants. Thats a win for everyone. People who work downtown get services they need and want. People living in the surrounding area have close by employment possibilities. It sucks that people who just need a check, who are trying to get by, and aren't really in a career path have to travel to the suburbs for low income work. Light rail up Grand River to say Warren would be a good catalyst

[rex]

suppose the same might be said for the very near east side. I realize i'm talking big money and we probably aren't a tenth of the way ready for what im talking about but there isnt much at all for several blocks past Eastern Market. Light rail up Gratiot and down Chene to say Mack and a bunch of new development would be huge for the city. Think of all the construction jobs. Another line cutting up MLK through the neighborhood. Alot of people would complain that downtown and higher income residents were being catered to while the rest of the city continues to slide but the ugly truth is people with $$$ build things. However, if they have it to spend its spent just as well inside the city of Detroit and that provides tax base to sustain service on Davison, Fenkel, McNichols, 7 mile, the east side and the areas where people dont pay as much, arent paying because they cant, and are losing their homes. When there is more money going out than is coming in and the city has to borrow to maintain and parks dont get mowed, streets arent plowed, pensions go out the window, and outsiders come and try to strip the museum.

[Zacha341]

I think crime remains an issue, spoken or no. Just this week a pregnant woman Bionka Lyons was shot multiple times getting out of her car. Senseless!

[Wesley Mouch]

Agree. New single family housing construction across the U.S. has been making a nice comeback but not within Detroit.

Maybe in the future?

I remember times when some cities like Detroit, D.C. [[yep) hardly had any grocery stores in the city and folks had to go to the 'burbs for the basics of life. That's changing.

Next should be the revitalization of neighborhoods with stores, drug stores, and even new housing.

I just don't know which neighborhood would see the construction of new single-family homes.

Which neighborhood? The answer will be the neighborhood with:

1) The best public safety
2) Either:
a) Best existing stock to renovate, or,
b) Easier and cheapest land to develop or redevelop.

Bureaucratic and populist decisions can have short-term impact, but real impact is from the new, novel idea which DY has only recently even notice, the market.

[mwilbert]

Which neighborhood? The answer will be the neighborhood with:

1) The best public safety
2) Either:
a) Best existing stock to renovate, or,
b) Easier and cheapest land to develop or redevelop.

Bureaucratic and populist decisions can have short-term impact, but real impact is from the new, novel idea which DY has only recently even notice, the market.

I think this is not really correct. The question was about new single family construction, so having existing stock to renovate is probably a negative--I expect that neighborhoods with existing, usable, but unoccupied buildings will see them renovated before you see new construction in those same neighborhoods.

Of course, you could see [[very limited) infill anyplace, but you are most likely to see significant amounts of housing built where there is a lot of empty space so that a developer has some economies of scale [[more or less your category b), which are not likely to be the places with the best safety or the best existing housing stock.

And the way that will happen is through some kind of non-market incentives--maybe tax-increment financing for infrastructure improvements, maybe tax abatements, etc. It isn't likely to happen through market forces, because there are too many possible locations and developers are most likely to want to go into areas that have been prioritized by the city.

But I think the whole idea is kind of marginal. Detroit has no shortage of single family housing, and the metro area doesn't either. On the other hand, both have a shortage of dense housing, and I expect that is what we are going to see built. Some of it might be town houses and row houses such as seem to be happening in Brush Park, but I don't see much single-family detached housing being built anytime in the the near future. I do think you will see a lot of existing housing renovated, and obviously that will happen first in the areas where housing prices will support it. Which, as you say, are probably the areas with the nicest housing stock and the best safety.

[iheartthed]

But I think the whole idea is kind of marginal. Detroit has no shortage of single family housing, and the metro area doesn't either. On the other hand, both have a shortage of dense housing, and I expect that is what we are going to see built. Some of it might be town houses and row houses such as seem to be happening in Brush Park, but I don't see much single-family detached housing being built anytime in the the near future. I do think you will see a lot of existing housing renovated, and obviously that will happen first in the areas where housing prices will support it. Which, as you say, are probably the areas with the nicest housing stock and the best safety.

And isn't this being realized in the market already? Aren't the new condos in downtown and midtown selling for the most expensive price per square foot in the Detroit area now?

[Danny]

I can see it now when I read the papers or the online news. DETROIT'S WHITE POPULATION INCREASED BY 25% WHILE BLACKS LEAVE!

Detroit 2020

52% black, 33% white, 9% Hispanic, 1% Asian, 3.2% other.

[mwilbert]

And isn't this being realized in the market already? Aren't the new condos in downtown and midtown selling for the most expensive price per square foot in the Detroit area now?

Not really. New condos in greater Downtown aren't [[generally) existing housing being renovated. They are conversions from non-housing uses, or occasionally new construction.

You don't just need adequate prices to create renovated housing. You need a stock of houses waiting to be renovated. There was basically never any housing downtown, so there isn't anything there to fix up. If there were still a lot of houses in Brush Park, you would probably see them being renovated now, but they aren't there to renovate, unlike in Corktown or Virginia Park.