NYT Story: For Detroit’s Children, More School Choice but Not Better Schools

[professorscott]

Which charter schools in Michigan are Gulanist schools? About 85 years ago, Michigan voters were given the option to vote for a constitutional amendments that would have eliminated private schools at the elementary and secondary level. They turned that down.

Very shortly thereafter, the Supreme Court made such schemes illegal, in a case which I believe involved the state of Oregon. So if the voters had passed such a thing, it would have been in effect for a couple years at most.

[mwilbert]

Well there you go. Anybody wonder why the U.S. has excellent universities and colleges, but lots of really shitty public schools? It's really simple. People choose what college or university they go to, based on their own preferences and a lot of criteria: price, location, what programs are offered, perceived quality of education, and on and on..

The US has some excellent colleges, just as it has some excellent primary and secondary schools. It also has a huge number of mediocre colleges, and a lot of bad ones. Just as it has a lot of huge number of mediocre primary and secondary schools, and a lot of bad ones. The college dropout rate is higher than the secondary school dropout rate.

Insofar as there is a difference, the biggest difference is not choice, it is that the most of the hardest-to-educate population never makes it to college. When they do, most colleges do a terrible job of graduating them.

I'm not against more choice at all, but the idea that it would make a big difference to the main victims of the current system is pretty doubtful.

[bust]

^^^ Exactly. Choice is good. But much better regulation is needed. The current system incentivizes schools to compete for the best students, and to neglect the ones who need the most help. We need better schools for the best students, and better schools for everyone else too!

[professorscott]

The college dropout rate is higher than the secondary school dropout rate.

That's not a meaningful datum even if true. K-12 education is mandatory and college is not. If you stop going to high school a truant officer may come after you; colleges have no such beast.

[mwilbert]

That's not a meaningful datum even if true. K-12 education is mandatory and college is not. If you stop going to high school a truant officer may come after you; colleges have no such beast.

In most places you can drop out when you are 16, and my experience is that enforcement prior to that is spotty. What proportion of the people who actually manage to graduate from high school [[typically well after the age of 16) do you think would not graduate without those laws? I have no data, but my best guess it is a pretty small percentage. So I do believe the comparison is legitimate.

[erikd]

In most places you can drop out when you are 16, and my experience is that enforcement prior to that is spotty. What proportion of the people who actually manage to graduate from high school [[typically well after the age of 16) do you think would not graduate without those laws? I have no data, but my best guess it is a pretty small percentage. So I do believe the comparison is legitimate.

The comparison between primary/high school and college is pretty much apples and oranges. They are very different situations. In addition to the point previously made, that primary/high school is for children, and college is for adults, there are also drastic differences in the amount of time spent in class, and drastic differences in the geographical area serviced.

Primary/high schools are places where children go for a full day, five days per week. While some parents may have the flexibility or financial means to provide daily transportation to a "school of choice" on a daily basis, it just isn't realistic to expect the majority of parents to be able to do so. This is especially true for lower income families that do not have the means to provide daily transportation to a school located miles away from their neighborhood.

While access to colleges also present transportation issues for many parents and students, it is a very different situation. First off, college students don't go to class every day from 8 till 4. A full time college schedule is defined as 12 class hours per week, which can usually be condensed into two days on campus per week, or even scheduled in the evening, to help accommodate for different work and transportation schedules.

Secondly, there is a huge difference between an 18 year old adult who has to take the bus/walk/get rides to get to a college campus 15 miles away, twice a week, and a 7 year old child who has to try to do the same thing 5 days a week.

[mwilbert]

The comparison between primary/high school and college is pretty much apples and oranges. They are very different situations. In addition to the point previously made, that primary/high school is for children, and college is for adults, there are also drastic differences in the amount of time spent in class, and drastic differences in the geographical area serviced.

Primary/high schools are places where children go for a full day, five days per week. While some parents may have the flexibility or financial means to provide daily transportation to a "school of choice" on a daily basis, it just isn't realistic to expect the majority of parents to be able to do so. This is especially true for lower income families that do not have the means to provide daily transportation to a school located miles away from their neighborhood.

While access to colleges also present transportation issues for many parents and students, it is a very different situation. First off, college students don't go to class every day from 8 till 4. A full time college schedule is defined as 12 class hours per week, which can usually be condensed into two days on campus per week, or even scheduled in the evening, to help accommodate for different work and transportation schedules.

Secondly, there is a huge difference between an 18 year old adult who has to take the bus/walk/get rides to get to a college campus 15 miles away, twice a week, and a 7 year old child who has to try to do the same thing 5 days a week.

I wasn't claiming that they were the same thing. I was claiming that it isn't obvious that colleges are a lot more successful at their jobs than secondary schools are. Your argument doesn't seem to address that, as the fact that people don't have to spend as much time in class in college is true, but, if anything, that should make it easier for people to stay in college, not harder.

[erikd]

I wasn't claiming that they were the same thing. I was claiming that it isn't obvious that colleges are a lot more successful at their jobs than secondary schools are. Your argument doesn't seem to address that, as the fact that people don't have to spend as much time in class in college is true, but, if anything, that should make it easier for people to stay in college, not harder.

My bad, mwilbert.

My comments were directed at professorscott, not you. I meant to reply to his post, but mistakenly replied to your post instead.

I think we are pretty much on the same side of this argument :-)

[Towne Cluber]

While some parents may have the flexibility or financial means to provide daily transportation to a "school of choice" on a daily basis, it just isn't realistic to expect the majority of parents to be able to do so. This is especially true for lower income families that do not have the means to provide daily transportation to a school located miles away from their neighborhood

Your point about the transportation capabilities of lower income families is valid, however, your take on the majority of families is inaccurate. Over half of all families [[nationwide) provide daily private vehicle transportation of their child[[ren) to school.

[Dumpling]

Michigan has only one Gulen charter school - it is this one in Center Line:

http://www.mmsaonline.org/