Hart Plaza Future

[downtownguy]

Hmm, it didn't really go down like that.

Yes, Comerica proposed a new HQ on the Ford Auditorum site, and, yeah, there was some public controversy, but it was more about demolishing Ford Auditorium rather than against highrises on the river [[after all the biggest highrises in Detroit are right on the river, right next to the site).

And Comerica didn't back off because the city nixed the plan, they backed off because the economy took a dive, and there was plenty of available empty office space downtown.

If Dan Gilbert proposed a 30 floor building on the Ford Auditorium site today, the entire civic apparatus would line up in support, just as with Comerica.

My recollection is similar to what Gistok described. And, there was also the issue that no one bothered to include the Ford Family in the mix. Since they had contributed, some, if not all, of the costs of building Ford Auditorium, it was a big faux pas to leave them out of the discussion.

[Hastings]

I had sex one time behind the Pyramid stage.

[Atticus]

Jane Jacobs had it right. Parks are usually challenging spaces where you wouldn't want your kids to go by themselves -- yet we seem to always want to see parks as some glorious font of wonder. They are not.

Location is the real problem with Hart, however. Great place to look at river. Great place for larger gatherings -- but almost no reason to go otherwise.

At the risk of being futher stigmatized as a profit-seeking pig, it needs commerce. Good restaurants and shops. But unfortunately commerce on city property in Detroit is considered an opportunity for rent-seeking by the City, or to give to friends, family, or patrons as gifts. Has there ever been a City use of property that hasn't been such?

I agree, and would like to see Hart Plaza fall under the Cobo management umbrella. Make it an outdoor festival site that can be rented out, just like someone can rent convention space in Cobo. The Cobo team already books events inside, so it would be a natural fit to have them book events outside as well. This could help to get more festivals and events downtown.

I also agree with previous comments that Bates Street needs some improvements to become a better link between the CBD and the river. My ideal solution would be adding another outdoor stage in Hart Plaza where Ford Aud was, enclose the plaza, and make it a festival site. New multi-use developments could line Bates Street to make it a more inviting link to the river, and pedestrians heading from the CBD to the river would be channeled to Bates Street.

[southen]

After a decade of reclaiming the riverfront for the public you want to permanently fence off what is arguably it's most prominent location for an event only space? I am at a loss.

[EastsideAl]

After a decade of reclaiming the riverfront for the public you want to permanently fence off what is arguably it's most prominent location for an event only space? I am at a loss.

Can I thumbs up?

We need more public access to the riverfront, not less. Again, Hart Plaza needs to be fully integrated into the Riverwalk, and the riverfront should be made as fully accessible as possible from the Belle Isle Bridge to the Ambassador Bridge.

[Gistok]

Well on the flip side of things.... if a group wants to rent the park for a festival, say an ethnic festival.... recouping the rental costs is often done by entrance fees. No fees, no festivals. There no saying you can't have a fence with a lot of lockable entrance gates. It doesn't necessarily make it uninviting.... just look at the Belle Isle Conservatory and Gardens.

[erikd]

I don't really know what would make Hart Plaza better, besides maintenance.

Probably the bigger question should be... why was it stopped being used for major functions? I used to enjoy attending some of the ethnic festivals down here in the 1980s. But they all left for the suburbs... as have recent event holders. Why? Certainly not for better park spaces...

Also the idea of redo-ing the park.... it was designed by world reknowned architect I. M. Pei... do we need more current world reknowned architects to redesign it into another flavor of the decade?

And what about those underground areas that never quite took off... success wise? Do we just fill them in for more grass and trees?

I'm not convinced that an entire redo of the park is necessary.... but some way to entice people down there for lunch may be a good start... but not by starting from scratch.

I love you, Gistok, and I frequently agree with your opinions, but not on this one, my friend.

Hart Plaza stands as an iconic example of exactly what not to do in a public space. In a city starved for quality public spaces, the development of Hart Plaza in the 1970s only gave us more harsh pavement and foreboding dystopian "public space."

The abysmal Hart Plaza cement-scape was profoundly terrible, but challenged by an equally dystopian and inhospitable Kennedy Square, and only slightly less inhumane paved-over Capitol Park.

All due respect for Pei and Nagouchi given, but Hart Plaza was a poorly designed public space from the get-go, and it is a shitty public space to this day.

The absolute failure of Hart Plaza is no longer a matter of subjective opinion, but one of objective fact. As Hart Plaza continues to fail as a miserable public space, the adjacent Riverwalk and Campus Martius Park thrive and serve as examples of quality urban public spaces.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the mid- 20th century architectural "geniuses" didn't know a fucking thing about how to design a public space that is comfortable and pleasing for actual people. We see this every single day, as the people of Detroit fill the Riverwalk, Campus Martius, and every other public space around Hart Plaza, while leaving that terribly designed park empty, and for good reason.

[Atticus]

Well on the flip side of things.... if a group wants to rent the park for a festival, say an ethnic festival.... recouping the rental costs is often done by entrance fees. No fees, no festivals. There no saying you can't have a fence with a lot of lockable entrance gates. It doesn't necessarily make it uninviting.... just look at the Belle Isle Conservatory and Gardens.

I agree with Gistok on multiple points. In regards to the fence issue,
Hyde Park in London and Jardin du Luxembourgh in Paris are both parks that have fences and gates. And like those parks, Hart Plaza should "close" at night if there are not events taking place. Unlike the riverwalk, Hart Plaza does not lead itself to linear foot traffic, which creates isolationism and leads to more loitering and vandalism. Jane Jacobs does a great job explaining why many park spaces aren't able to work, and Hart Plaza falls into that category.

But looking at the bigger picture, I think the key difference here is what the "function" of Hart Plaza should be. Based on earlier posts, it appears many believe that Hart Plaza would better function as a green space with trees, more grass replacing the concrete, and essentially a larger Campus Martius.

I disagree with this notion of park over plaza because I believe the location of Hart Plaza prevents it from being able to work as a traditional green space park in that sense. As mentioned, it is isolated, large in size, and not suited for cut through traffic. You could replace much of the concrete with green space, but that wouldn't change the functionality of the park from what it is now, and you would have much higher maintenance costs.

I do however believe functionally Hart Plaza is ideal as a festival site, and as such the design of a festival site place is much different than a traditional park. The festival site generates revenue to pay for the plazas upkeep, and you could still open the site up for free midday for food trucks. But if you are going to use it as a festival site, the fence and concrete make more sense practically [[even though green and open may sound better).

Finally, the enclosure of the plaza would funnel pedestrians heading to the river all to use Bates Street. This channelization, along with mixed used development that could built along Bates street, "might" be enough to finally create an inviting connection between the CBD and the riverfront via Bates Street.

[401don]

The problem with Hart Plaza as a festival site is that the ethnic festivals, Hoedown, etc. didn't want to or couldn't afford to pay the rental fees so we are left with about 3-4 events for the entire summer. It takes a combination of money from the city, ticketing and corporate sponsorship to fund these events so is it lack of interest, poor marketing? Why can't "A taste of Detroit" work financially in Hart Plaza?

[Jason]

I love you, Gistok, and I frequently agree with your opinions, but not on this one, my friend.

Hart Plaza stands as an iconic example of exactly what not to do in a public space. In a city starved for quality public spaces, the development of Hart Plaza in the 1970s only gave us more harsh pavement and foreboding dystopian "public space."

The abysmal Hart Plaza cement-scape was profoundly terrible, but challenged by an equally dystopian and inhospitable Kennedy Square, and only slightly less inhumane paved-over Capitol Park.

Only about half of Hart Plaza is hard surface. There are plenty of open lawn spaces, both overlooking the river as well as closer to downtown. There are also more secluded green spaces off to the sides of the park.

Also, the amount of hard surfaces [[most of the ground is granite pavers and not concrete. And concrete is essentially cast limestone anyway) doesn't have much to do with how successful a public place is.

Venice:



The Vatican: [[note the pavers that are nearly identical to Hart Plaza's)



The list of successful urban public spaces that are almost entirely hard surfaces would go on and on because the idea that these types of spaces should primarily be grass and trees has only been around for the last few decades [[compared previously to the last few millennia).

All due respect for Pei and Nagouchi given, but Hart Plaza was a poorly designed public space from the get-go, and it is a shitty public space to this day.

Given the site, what could be done better? I literally can't think of any other arrangement that would make more sense.

There's a moderately scaled hard surfaced area in the middle of the site, with a dynamic/interactive fountain/sculpture in the center.

This hard surfaced area [[the "plaza" of the plaza) is ringed by an amphitheater [[with dressing rooms and other support spaces)/ice skate rink, restaurants, art gallery, public restrooms, and another amphitheater/monument.

The main entrance to Hart Plaza is at the foot of woodward, "Detroit's main street", and a sensible main entrance, both symbolically and functionally. Woodard hits the park in the NE corner, so the path from the entrance to the plaza is angled. The Pylon anchors the entrance and the path, and serves as a wayfinding device, since it's not a straight shot from Woodward to the plaza.

The Pylon also terminates a promenade that connects Hart Plaza's main entrance to the then Veterans Memorial Building and Cobo. This promenade provides auxiliary space for events and provides clear access to some of the park's green space.

The river, except for an elevated interactive monument/seating which overlooks it, is lined with a grassy and tree shaded hill along the entire stretch. The entire SW corner of Hart Plaza is grass and trees overlooking the river. [[note that ALL of Atwater was intended to be capped, so that the SW area would be one large continuous green space. I think that extending the cap today would improve the park)

Like I said I can't think of a more sensible arrangement. The main plaza space is big enough to host events, and yet on non-event days, over 50% of its perimeter is lined with various people-drawing attractions/amenities. But these are even put underground so that at the plaza level there's ALSO trees and grass. The other part of the perimeter is the coveted grass/trees/river combo.

The absolute failure of Hart Plaza is no longer a matter of subjective opinion, but one of objective fact. As Hart Plaza continues to fail as a miserable public space, the adjacent Riverwalk and Campus Martius Park thrive and serve as examples of quality urban public spaces.

Programatically neither Campus Martius or the Riverwalk do anything that Hart Plaza doesn't. Hart Plaza already has the ice rink/cafe/concerts combo. It also already has the grass and trees along the river thing. It already has an interactive water feature. It already has a concert venue.

It doesn't have a carousel or a kid's playground.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the mid- 20th century architectural "geniuses" didn't know a fucking thing about how to design a public space that is comfortable and pleasing for actual people. We see this every single day, as the people of Detroit fill the Riverwalk, Campus Martius, and every other public space around Hart Plaza, while leaving that terribly designed park empty, and for good reason.

Hart Plaza's problems are actually pretty straightforwardly diagnosable.


First, it's on an edge. It's not in the thick of things, embedded with the hustle and bustle. You can't pass through Hart Plaza, the only time you'll be there is if you specifically choose to go there. Being on an edge also means it has half of the "catchment area" [[the area within walking distance), since the fish in the river won't be visiting the park.

The edge problem is mostly unavoidable but there's a few things that can be done to mitigate it. You can extend downtown into the park by putting some kind of high volume building [[condos won't generate much activity and offices won't either but other commercial and civic uses do) on the Ford Auditorium site. Replacing the Bates garage, capping the tunnel, and better integrating the Ren Cen would also help this.

The other thing you can do to mitigate this problem is to create attractions in the park itself. The designers of Hart Plaza were clearly aware of this considering how intensely programmed the park is. The city on the other hand completely neglects the park. The non profits that manage Campus Martius and the Riverwalk do a great job at this.


The second problem is also due to the city's incompetence. The place is just physically neglected. Things are falling apart. Repairs and additions to the park are poorly thought out. No one is paying attention to the details. These strong signs of blight and negligence signal to people that Hart Plaza is not a place where they want to be. Why is the police station's parking lot a gravel lot lined with cyclone fencing? https://goo.gl/maps/jxwoxWWvSG32 What's with this? https://goo.gl/maps/RTac7jyfBvQ2 Conduit and ducts galore https://www.flickr.com/photos/494992...n/photostream/


And the third problem is that hindsight is 20/20 and there are genuine shortcomings of Hart Plaza that could be addressed. But I think the changes are much more subtle, and frankly much less expensive, than what people think.

[EL Jimbo]

Why isn't there a ferris wheel, for warm weather days? Like Chicago..

I just spent a few days in Atlanta and I was blown away with how interesting and well utilized their Centennial Olympic Park is. There is a restaurant, a small amphitheater, a playground, water features, a splash pad, and lots of green space. And just off to the side of it was Skyview Atlanta, a 10 story Ferris Wheel.

Even on a sweltering day that saw temperatures in the upper 90s not including humidity, the park was full and had tons of foot traffic. Granted that the park is surrounded by the CNN Center, the College Football Hall of Fame, the Georgia Aquarium, and the World of Coca-Cola Museum probably aides in that considerably, it was still impressive to see a public space being used.

[downtownguy]

Some very good points, Jason. In the 80s and 90s, Hart Plaza attracted many people to it during the day. When Campus Martius came along in the 00s, the new place in town was where all the cool kids wanted to be. Now that there are more people working and playing down here, I think, with the right management, Hart Plaza could be viable again.

I think Hart Plaza's demise had more to do with who was managing it than anything else. My wish is that either the Detroit Riverfront Conservancy or the Detroit 300 Conservancy [[Campus Martius) annex Hart Plaza and take over its operations. Imagine if Detroit 300 developed the 3 blocks of Woodward's median as a pedestrian connector to Hart Plaza from Campus Martius and managed both? Maybe even put in a restaurant a la Fountain Bistro near the Woodward entrance and pylon. With some creativity, maintenance and strong management, I think Hart Plaza could be just as successful as Campus Martius is today.

[southen]

It absolutely needs to be more interactive. I think a restaurant or two would be nice, or maybe locate some Detroit centric retail there, or better yet make it the hub for the Detroit experience factory. Make it the first and last stop on their Detroit tours with segway and bike rental.

In addition to that add more art and interactive water feature to the park. Millennium Park in Chicago as all of these things in abundance and it makes it a draw even when there isnt skating or something happening in the band shell. It would be a huge mistake to maintain this place as a festival only site when it really could be a draw for downtown.

[archfan]

In addition to that add more art and interactive water feature to the park.

Just fix the dang fountain. Make it do what it's supposed to do - constantly change, and allow people to walk through the spray.

[Honky Tonk]

Just fix the dang fountain. Make it do what it's supposed to do - constantly change, and allow people to walk through the spray.

I wonder if it's the fountain itself that's broken mechanically, or the lack of rocket scientists to make it work properly.

[southen]

Just fix the dang fountain. Make it do what it's supposed to do - constantly change, and allow people to walk through the spray.

Even if you fix the fountain we have there is still very little in the park to get people to visit.

[Mark Smiles]

I would reconnect 3rd street to the river. This would add value to the property along 3rd street as it would be a straight shot to the river. This would provide a nice access to Hart Plaza and better connect it to the city. I think this would be better than tearing out I-375. If anything more crossings over the freeway could be built if they were really needed. But, yeah reconnect 3rd street.

[EastsideAl]

I love you, Gistok, and I frequently agree with your opinions, but not on this one, my friend.

Hart Plaza stands as an iconic example of exactly what not to do in a public space. In a city starved for quality public spaces, the development of Hart Plaza in the 1970s only gave us more harsh pavement and foreboding dystopian "public space."

The abysmal Hart Plaza cement-scape was profoundly terrible, but challenged by an equally dystopian and inhospitable Kennedy Square, and only slightly less inhumane paved-over Capitol Park.

All due respect for Pei and Nagouchi given, but Hart Plaza was a poorly designed public space from the get-go, and it is a shitty public space to this day.

The absolute failure of Hart Plaza is no longer a matter of subjective opinion, but one of objective fact. As Hart Plaza continues to fail as a miserable public space, the adjacent Riverwalk and Campus Martius Park thrive and serve as examples of quality urban public spaces.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the mid- 20th century architectural "geniuses" didn't know a fucking thing about how to design a public space that is comfortable and pleasing for actual people. We see this every single day, as the people of Detroit fill the Riverwalk, Campus Martius, and every other public space around Hart Plaza, while leaving that terribly designed park empty, and for good reason.

I think this fundamentally misunderstands what Hart Plaza was meant to be, and what it in fact was for much of its history. Hart Plaza was never intended to be a cozy public park, or nice place to lounge around on your lunch hour.

It was intended to be a central civic space for mass gatherings and large public events, much like St. Mark's or St. Peter's in Jason's post above. The main impetus for several specific design features of Hart Plaza were the extremely popular ethnic festivals that used to draw thousands of people to a downtown event area almost every summer weekend. As well as giving a larger, more crowd-friendly, home for several other then-popular events, such the Freedom Festival, Downtown Detroit Days, Christmas events [[with skating), and music festivals. Later came the Jazz Festival, the Hoedown, Electronic Music Festival [[Movement), and other big events, like the Grand Prix.

The Amphitheater was designed for music, speeches [[remember, Detroit was once a major stop on all Democratic campaigns), and shows, as well as for skating in the winter. Often forgotten was that the smaller Pyramid stage was designed to show outdoor movies, among other things. The underground area was built with booths and small kitchens to accommodate the ethnic festival food vendors. The plaza itself was designed for free, open movement of large flows of people.

While the ethnic festivals and the music festivals were ongoing the plaza and its events spaces actually performed their designed functions quite well [[with the exception of the underground vendor space, which was always cramped and not very pleasant). Large numbers of people moved in and out of the plaza and its various event spaces on most weekends. Even during off-hours, weekday lunchtimes, etc. the plaza received a fair number of visitors. You can still see during the Jazz Festival a good picture of how the plaza was supposed to function.

Part of what changed though was that downtown increasingly became a place that a lot of people feared to go or were unwilling to go. The ethnic festival crowds began to dwindle, and other events, like the fireworks, became increasingly troubled.

But an even bigger blow to the plaza's status as a public event space came when the city started trying to charge an outrageous rent for holding events there. While at the same time maintenance became almost non-existent for the aging plaza [[although parts of the area, particularly towards the river, were attractively redesigned and expanded). Suddenly, many of the biggest events that were once held there either died or went elsewhere to cheaper, better maintained, venues.

With the comeback of the central city though, and with some reasonably minor renovations [[perhaps incorporating some of the old Ford Aud. site) and a whole lot of basic maintenance, the potential exists to bring make Hart Plaza much more useful again and bring it back towards its original intentions. Particularly if a commitment could be made to going back to holding much more frequent [[perhaps even weekly again) free or low-cost public events, festivals, etc. there during the warm weather season. No need to reinvent those wheels, just put some new tires on them and keep it going.

[erikd]

Only about half of Hart Plaza is hard surface. There are plenty of open lawn spaces, both overlooking the river as well as closer to downtown. There are also more secluded green spaces off to the sides of the park.

Also, the amount of hard surfaces [[most of the ground is granite pavers and not concrete. And concrete is essentially cast limestone anyway) doesn't have much to do with how successful a public place is.

Venice:



The Vatican: [[note the pavers that are nearly identical to Hart Plaza's)



The list of successful urban public spaces that are almost entirely hard surfaces would go on and on because the idea that these types of spaces should primarily be grass and trees has only been around for the last few decades [[compared previously to the last few millennia).



Given the site, what could be done better? I literally can't think of any other arrangement that would make more sense.

There's a moderately scaled hard surfaced area in the middle of the site, with a dynamic/interactive fountain/sculpture in the center.

This hard surfaced area [[the "plaza" of the plaza) is ringed by an amphitheater [[with dressing rooms and other support spaces)/ice skate rink, restaurants, art gallery, public restrooms, and another amphitheater/monument.

The main entrance to Hart Plaza is at the foot of woodward, "Detroit's main street", and a sensible main entrance, both symbolically and functionally. Woodard hits the park in the NE corner, so the path from the entrance to the plaza is angled. The Pylon anchors the entrance and the path, and serves as a wayfinding device, since it's not a straight shot from Woodward to the plaza.

The Pylon also terminates a promenade that connects Hart Plaza's main entrance to the then Veterans Memorial Building and Cobo. This promenade provides auxiliary space for events and provides clear access to some of the park's green space.

The river, except for an elevated interactive monument/seating which overlooks it, is lined with a grassy and tree shaded hill along the entire stretch. The entire SW corner of Hart Plaza is grass and trees overlooking the river. [[note that ALL of Atwater was intended to be capped, so that the SW area would be one large continuous green space. I think that extending the cap today would improve the park)

Like I said I can't think of a more sensible arrangement. The main plaza space is big enough to host events, and yet on non-event days, over 50% of its perimeter is lined with various people-drawing attractions/amenities. But these are even put underground so that at the plaza level there's ALSO trees and grass. The other part of the perimeter is the coveted grass/trees/river combo.



Programatically neither Campus Martius or the Riverwalk do anything that Hart Plaza doesn't. Hart Plaza already has the ice rink/cafe/concerts combo. It also already has the grass and trees along the river thing. It already has an interactive water feature. It already has a concert venue.

It doesn't have a carousel or a kid's playground.



Hart Plaza's problems are actually pretty straightforwardly diagnosable.


First, it's on an edge. It's not in the thick of things, embedded with the hustle and bustle. You can't pass through Hart Plaza, the only time you'll be there is if you specifically choose to go there. Being on an edge also means it has half of the "catchment area" [[the area within walking distance), since the fish in the river won't be visiting the park.

The edge problem is mostly unavoidable but there's a few things that can be done to mitigate it. You can extend downtown into the park by putting some kind of high volume building [[condos won't generate much activity and offices won't either but other commercial and civic uses do) on the Ford Auditorium site. Replacing the Bates garage, capping the tunnel, and better integrating the Ren Cen would also help this.

The other thing you can do to mitigate this problem is to create attractions in the park itself. The designers of Hart Plaza were clearly aware of this considering how intensely programmed the park is. The city on the other hand completely neglects the park. The non profits that manage Campus Martius and the Riverwalk do a great job at this.


The second problem is also due to the city's incompetence. The place is just physically neglected. Things are falling apart. Repairs and additions to the park are poorly thought out. No one is paying attention to the details. These strong signs of blight and negligence signal to people that Hart Plaza is not a place where they want to be. Why is the police station's parking lot a gravel lot lined with cyclone fencing? https://goo.gl/maps/jxwoxWWvSG32 What's with this? https://goo.gl/maps/RTac7jyfBvQ2 Conduit and ducts galore https://www.flickr.com/photos/494992...n/photostream/


And the third problem is that hindsight is 20/20 and there are genuine shortcomings of Hart Plaza that could be addressed. But I think the changes are much more subtle, and frankly much less expensive, than what people think.

First off, I must say that this is an excellent post, and a great response to my criticisms of Hart Plaza. I do agree with some of the arguments that you made, but not all of them.

Secondly, my criticism of the harsh overly-paved landscape of Hart Plaza has less to do with a dislike of pavement, or a love of greenspace, in general, and more to do with the fact that it is a harsh landscape that is simply uncomfortable to be in. There are plenty of paved pubic spaces that feel welcoming and comfortable, but Hart Plaza is not one of them. The same argument applies to public spaces that are nothing more that a big patch of grass. A big empty lawn can feel just as unwelcoming as a big empty section of pavement. It's not about the ground covering.

Also, all of the points about how the layout of Hart Plaza is actually well-though out, and should theoretically be a good public space, are great. Unfortunately, it just simply doesn't work. The reality is that Hart Plaza is simply a poor public space. It is uncomfortable to be in.

[takascar]

Isamu Noguchi designed the fountain [[although it was not fully built to his specifications, and thus never fully operated as originally intended) and several of the other elements of Hart Plaza. However, the original site design was by Smith, Hinchman & Grylls. As was the trend in the 1970s, they and the city wanted a wide open plaza to enable mass crowds and reduce fears of hiding places for criminals, etc. It is a relatively rare example of Noguchi's landscape work in the U.S. However, it is unlike some of his other outdoor work, in Miami or Costa Mesa CA for example, which contain much more greenery and notably Japanese-influenced elements [[like Yamasaki's McGregor Center garden at WSU).

To fix Hart Plaza, just tear out that ugly doughnut on stilts. It was commissioned during one of the liberal's self-flagellation episodes - this one the combination guilt trip / apology tour regarding Japanese internment during WW-II. During this period, any hack that had Japanese ancestry was given millions of taxpayer dollars to build butt-ugly "art" and structures as a "payback" for WW-II actions. In Chicago, we have an example of this called the Thompson Center. This leaky taxpayer-funded monstrosity looks like an upside-down toilet when viewed from above. How about we stop apologizing for saving the world from fascism and tear out / tear down these monstrosities and build stuff that is really functional and beautiful.

[Armin]

To fix Hart Plaza, just tear out that ugly doughnut on stilts. It was commissioned during one of the liberal's self-flagellation episodes - this one the combination guilt trip / apology tour regarding Japanese internment during WW-II. During this period, any hack that had Japanese ancestry was given millions of taxpayer dollars to build butt-ugly "art" and structures as a "payback" for WW-II actions. In Chicago, we have an example of this called the Thompson Center. This leaky taxpayer-funded monstrosity looks like an upside-down toilet when viewed from above. How about we stop apologizing for saving the world from fascism and tear out / tear down these monstrosities and build stuff that is really functional and beautiful.

Yeah, you nailed it. That would totally fix Hart Plaza.

[dtowncitylover]

To fix Hart Plaza, just tear out that ugly doughnut on stilts. It was commissioned during one of the liberal's self-flagellation episodes - this one the combination guilt trip / apology tour regarding Japanese internment during WW-II. During this period, any hack that had Japanese ancestry was given millions of taxpayer dollars to build butt-ugly "art" and structures as a "payback" for WW-II actions. In Chicago, we have an example of this called the Thompson Center. This leaky taxpayer-funded monstrosity looks like an upside-down toilet when viewed from above. How about we stop apologizing for saving the world from fascism and tear out / tear down these monstrosities and build stuff that is really functional and beautiful.

Ah yes, the World Trade Centers by Yamasaki was just one big, "SORRY JAPAN!"

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[southen]

'Murica!

One of the dumbest things I've read on here. Thanks takascar.

[EastsideAl]

To fix Hart Plaza, just tear out that ugly doughnut on stilts. It was commissioned during one of the liberal's self-flagellation episodes - this one the combination guilt trip / apology tour regarding Japanese internment during WW-II. During this period, any hack that had Japanese ancestry was given millions of taxpayer dollars to build butt-ugly "art" and structures as a "payback" for WW-II actions. In Chicago, we have an example of this called the Thompson Center. This leaky taxpayer-funded monstrosity looks like an upside-down toilet when viewed from above. How about we stop apologizing for saving the world from fascism and tear out / tear down these monstrosities and build stuff that is really functional and beautiful.

I'm not at all sure what the hell you're going on about, or what Hart Plaza has to do with fascism, but here are a few facts. Isamu Noguchi was half-Japanese and was born in Los Angeles. At the time of WWII he lived in New York and was not interned [[the internment order only covered people of Japanese ancestry living west of the Mississippi). He did, however, volunteer to work in one of the camps for a time.

From his furniture designs [[several of which are still in production), to his pioneering theater design work, to his architectural and landscape design work, and especially to his sculptural works, which are in the collections of literally dozens of major museums, he was among the most important artists of the 20th century. One of the very few artists with a permanent museum in a major city dedicated solely to his works.

You may not like Hart Plaza or its design [[and you certainly seem to harbor some sort of distaste for Japanese people), but there's really very little doubt about Noguchi's accomplishments or status as an artist.

[Bham1982]

To fix Hart Plaza, just tear out that ugly doughnut on stilts. It was commissioned during one of the liberal's self-flagellation episodes - this one the combination guilt trip / apology tour regarding Japanese internment during WW-II. During this period, any hack that had Japanese ancestry was given millions of taxpayer dollars to build butt-ugly "art" and structures as a "payback" for WW-II actions. In Chicago, we have an example of this called the Thompson Center. This leaky taxpayer-funded monstrosity looks like an upside-down toilet when viewed from above. How about we stop apologizing for saving the world from fascism and tear out / tear down these monstrosities and build stuff that is really functional and beautiful.

Noguchi was born in California and lived in Troy and in NYC. He was pretty all-American.

And I seriously doubt all his accolades and commissions were based on WW2 guilt. If that were true, then why were virtually no prominent Japanese architects getting commissions in the U.S.? Japan had some of the top architects on earth back then, including multiple Pritzker Prize winners [[highest honor in architecture).

And the problems in Hart Plaza are completely unrelated to Noguchi's fountain.