How come churches haven't prevented Detroit's slide?

[G-DDT]

The "church" is under more strain now more than ever in the face of so much outspoken skepticism [[the fact that "family values' and "sex appeal" were brought up is another, for if one reads the Gospel, both-even "family values", surprisingly enough-get played down). There was a time when National Geographic wrote many reverent articles tracing Judaism or Christianity in other lands, but have given way to articles about silly Gnostic crud. I have old Life and Time magazines [[60's & 70's) where companies [[like Hilton, of all things) ran full page ads [[especially around the holidays) openly espousing there faith. I state this not so much as a be-moanment, but more of an observant comparison that stands out starkly with today.

Today's old school churches are dwindling in numbers, the buildings are going into disrepair, and it's difficult to track so many charity programs in Detroit [[Lord knows, I've tried.) because so many of them come and go or shift locations, times, or policies as lack of resources become far too much of an issue.

I will add, do not expect "Mega Churches" or "Church Malls" to concern themselves with betterment of the downtrodden. Oh, they have day-cares for single moms who attend their facilities [[and other so-called Mission or "in-house ministries" as I explained above), which is good and all, but true roll-up-your-sleeves incisive charity work with "lost causes" on the outside will be lacking. Many mega-churches are oriented on money-making for real estate, promotions, production values, and many of them cater to the affluent or espouse the very ugly prosperity ethos that puts "affluence" alongside the skewed context of "competitive faith rating".

[Bucket]

For generations in Detroit, Catholics in Detroit identified by what parish they came from. Neighborhood was secondary. It's been hypothesized that were it not for the Catholic territorial parish, flight to the suburbs would have happened much sooner than it did. People were tied to their neighborhood because of the strong connection with the parish.

Then there are the city's Catholic schools. Which initially catered primarily to immigrant populations and in later years taught mostly non-Catholic black students. Several trends combined to bring about their slow and painful demise: the decrease in vocations which took away the free labor provided by the nuns, and the loss of state aid in 1970.

For more on the schools, see "Lost Classroom, Lost Community: Catholic Schools' Importance in Urban America." It takes a hard look at the data from Philly and Chicago and comes to the conclusion that Catholic schools play a major part as a social capital-generator and stabilizing force for urban neighborhoods. City neighborhoods with a K-8 Catholic school statistically experience lower rates of crime and disorder than those without one.

[bust]

For those skeptical of the "church's" role in improving life throughout history, there seems to be a vast amnesia that can't recollect that a majority of our nation's long withstanding institutions of hospitals and universities were started by religious entities. The church was doing this and feeding the poor [[and caring for those on leper colonies, etc.-once again more thankless tasks for "lost causes" or those roles that can be chalked up to endlessly wearying "maintenance" that the church goes unsung for accomplishing) while society on one end furthered only itself by it's self-gratifying arts [[that didn't feed the masses), while society on the other end was content to live like a Bruegel painting wallowing in drunken and degradation [[because the choice was always theirs to make on the issue of self-improvement).

A compelling story and the church must want us to believe it. The following story is much less beautiful, but it is true.

Among his first years after arriving in Detroit my immigrant great-grandfather took his severely ill infant son to a catholic hospital, was demanded payment in advance of treatment, did not have enough money, and his infant son's care was refused. Rejected by the hospital, that infant son died at home, surrounded by his family, whose tremendous love was not enough to cure him alone.

After that there was wide disagreement among my family whether the church deserved their continued attendance. Most continued, some refused and practiced their beliefs at home, some among later generations discontinued religion in any form.

Ironically, my dad later found employment at another of Detroit's catholic hospitals. It enabled our middle class life in Grosse Pointe, and for that I'm grateful. But he's now retired and lost his pension when the catholic archdiocese of Detroit recently declared bankruptcy -- in part due to the expenses they've incurred compensating its victims of sexual abuse.

Anyone who has ever witnessed the vast plundered treasure at the Vatican, the Seville cathedral, or any number of its other grandiose temples and palaces, knows the catholic church is anything but bankrupt. It has been for centuries an institutionalized pyramid scheme set up to globally extract wealth. Today, like any other savvy multinational, they've engineered that scheme to limit the monetary repercussions of the sex abuse scandal to its local archdioceses, to gain discretion to more specifically renege on its financial commitments, and to insulate its enormous wealth up top.

It's an ugly story, sure not to be popular. Individual criticisms are drowned by the prodigious power of the church and its millions of loyal believers. And I don't pretend to disqualify the experiences of others who have fared better with the church. It has done good work too, and has attracted many whose charity and motivations I don't doubt. But to my mind the story is a counterpoint to the popular church narrative, a dose of reality in the face of the revisionist history the church promotes.

At the least, the circumstances of the death of my great-uncle prove christian hospitals were not nearly as pure in their charity as has been described.

That touched a family nerve. My apologies if I offended anyone with anything I wrote.

[Onthe405]

Churches can't fix those issues. However, a major contributing factor to poverty is having babies before you're ready. This doesn't even mean in your teen years. Just plain old don't have kids until you're ready to support them.

Churches are more likely to preach the "until you're married" line of thinking. And they're also more likely to preach abstinence instead of other methods that are much better at preventing unwanted pregnancy.

Unwanted pregnancies doom ill prepared mothers to a life of poverty, many times alone. It also dooms the child to a life of poverty, to be raised in the ways of poverty, and to be fully setup to be thrust into an adult of poverty.

Solving the unwanted pregnancy issue would be a huge piece to the fixing Detroit puzzle [[as well as fixing poverty in places other than Detroit too).

At the risk of facing backlash from those subscribing to the "American Exceptionalism" premise, cultures like the largely secular Dutch are having more success with this issue. Instead of emphasizing "abstinence" [[as absurd as a lifetime of celibacy among clergy), families, educators, and the larger society would be better served by speaking frankly & practically about sex & reproduction.

An important element of the Dutch approach is not to simply focus on the sex act itself, but also the intimate human dimension, and its consequences to the other party. The result is less promiscuity, fewer abortions, and lower unintended pregnancy rates.

There's immeasurable value in the tradition & role of religion, theology, and our collective endless quest to understand why we are here. However, somehow, when it comes how this relates to sex, theologically, we never moved forward beyond our Puritanical heritage.

However, like the author says: you can't argue with the results

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...410-story.html

[SDCC]

American Exceptionalism floundered on the shoals on Vietnam – Daniel Bell

Puritanical; Draconian, Archaic Midwestern Views

[G-DDT]

^^^What would help your personal story a little better, bust, would be if you gave some specifics regarding timeframe in which this occurred and the name of the exact Catholic hospital that treated your family so shamefully [[as well as the other hospital your dad worked at while you were in Grosse Pointe-St. John's? Providence-by all appearance-started out as Catholic-which is what was the point I made of how such things started, but Providence is far from being Catholic nowadays, as I would also expect St. John's, as a merged institution, to follow in similar manner.). What was the parish your family attended that you you all ended up leaving [[I can tell you that my family went to at least three Lutheran churches and schools before we gave up on them)? Also, it would help if you can provide the links to information that directly provide the evidence that states that it was by sexual abuse scandal cover-ups and compensations, that the local diocese has gone bankrupt.

[G-DDT]

My narrative is not based on church, it is based on history [[and the history of Detroit), what I see in the cultural fare [[which openly has targeted Catholicism for a long time, and of lately the Amish, Muslims, and religion in general) which has large formidable momentum in the imbalance in the media, movies [[ahem-Miramax), and online, and moreover, what experience I received traveling on the road through 17 states. Catholicism is far from monolithic, and I'm quite the liberal Catholic who does not allow every aspect of my life to be dictated to me by the Greater church. Thus, not one to parrot every "dogma" propunded by the Catholic hierarchy. By the way, one mentioned rank-and-file. Unlike some Methodists, the ranking of the Catholic church is only in function not in stature. There are some Catholics who truly understand the principal Christ taught about the master being the servant and the servant being the master, for to truly be a "minister" who serves Christ is to "minister", that is to "serve" others, as well, and the Catholics honor that aspect with ceremonial foot-washing-though, many more accurately go forth to wash feet and cut hair and such of those less fortunate [[one of the first-of many to come-services I actually received from the Catholics was foot-washing, and seeing as I was in dump like the Dropp Inn in Cincinnati wearing the same socks for two weeks straight, I needed it badly.). That all said, I wouldn't be all that off base in assuming there are a lot of married Catholic families with condoms in their bedside nightstand drawers.

I severely questioned the very garish point driven at and reasoning for this thread when it was started by an infrequent DY participant [[Come to think of it, there are a few more recent ones that popped up that seem very baiting that I chose to ignore.). In fact, those with similar views to mine on religion have wisely chosen to scoff away and avoid comment on this thread....Wise move. Yet, More fool me for not avoiding it from it's rapid onset. So, in my sleep-deprived state I chimed in my hasty pearls.

[G-DDT]

I also knew the very minute I saw the thread that it was a hotbed for those ever reliable posters who only surface to slam on religion, because they have a serious aroused, unabiding hatred for other folks beliefs [[sad.-for even most Atheists acknowledge and can live by a principal of co-existence and abiding with believers. But the principal of abiding is not the same as complying, so when one notices an overwhelming trend to back you into a corner....well, like anyone of God's creatures kicked around, you have the dang right to defend your right to faith from the and enormous amount of ignorant accusations.). I guess the comment section on Youtube or any of the other flippant comment sections on major-media sites just weren't big enough to accommodate them among all the other like-minded who spout what is trollish, unabiding, and well...just popular in incredibly large numbers. That further solidifies my proof that anti-religion [[and anti-Catholicism) is formidable.

So, allow me to head off that which has the potential of getting grotesquely out of hand by countering with something just as ostentatious.

So, what is the most popular attack on the Catholic church?

Yes, the very over-driven and spoon-fed popular accusations of child molestation [[many of which, if cleared, don't get such reporting in media as the constant follow-ups-the kind used in the media in reporting black-commited crimes-of the initial accusations-like in the case of Joseph Cardinal Bernardin-I'm already seeing from an initial searching that Louisville, New Haven, Minnesota, Milwaukee, Cedarburg all had priests cleared of wrong doing.). Now, molestation is very gravely serious, yet, we have too much proof in media and history that show that there are many with motives [[all one has to witness is the powerful list of enemies the Catholics have had for a long time-7th Day Adventists, Masons, Know-Nothing Party, Nazis, KKK, Dispensationalists, etc. and what these haters represent, and you get a deductively good idea that the Catholics must be doing something right, in some way. After all, were nuns in Somerville, MA really abusing orphans in the 19th century?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursuline_Convent_riots Does history repeat itself? ) to come forward and fabricate seriously damaging accusations [[Yet, I guess we are to believe that Bill Cosby was also very busy with over 50 women who must all be telling the truth...yes?---even though Cosby's lawyer did furnish proof that many of them were wrong in their accounts. Maybe that can serve as a strong lesson to us all as to why "not bearing false witness against thy neighbor" was ever a commandment important enough to be given to us all. If not, at least consider how strong propaganda was in the hands of Joseph Goebbels, and when that didn't suit him over-the-table by overt means, he employed under-handed market-place agent rumor-mill insemination of molestation accusations against clergy who didn't comply with Nazi schemes.). I feel sorry for the male teacher who gets accused by bored, snotty teen girls with a mean streak who sociopathically refuse to realize what damage they do by picking up on their ideas from the media and playing on the sympathies of a town or social work system that will pull overwhelming support for them, no matter how ridiculous their claims are. Authors from Harry Houdini to Ken Englade have pointed out that powerful forces have no problem employing junkies, low-lives, and pathological lying trailer trash to slander someone. Given the type of enemies that Cathoilcs have and the tactics used, and the clearings made later, is it not reasonable to see something devious being applied in many cases?

What of the media's handling of such matters? The accusations and many follow-ups are made and intersected and leap-frogged....well, one half paying attention can envision it as being a huge panicking plague. Yet, when a suspect is cleared with no conviction...no attention is drawn to it.

Though the problem does very much exist and must be addressed,we should also acknowledge the similar numbered cases with Protestant faiths [[and this is not, by far, any form of an excuse or dismissal of the crime, by saying "everyone else does it"); for I've been recording incidents of ministers http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4019347.html[[many southern Baptist included) accused and convicted of such hideous crimes [[this is not including the many horrible incidents of deaths in the hands of exorcistshttp://listverse.com/2014/02/04/10-deadly-exorcisms/ -a practice mostly endemic to fringe Christians and if ever handled by Catholics or Orthodox, never in the violent and impassioned manner we see in that link-a link that predates the New Hartford, New York cult's deadly "chastening" of a kid.), yet, they get little coverage with no follow-ups [[eh, like a bike had been stolen, right?).

The same treatment is applied to abuses happening in many secular groups [[teachers, child day cares, scout leaders, coaches-I've been to Penn State and talked to folks from there who said the incidents with Sandusky went on for a long time and attempts to expose it lead to persons found dead of "suicide" or missing-much like this guyhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar. On a terribly candid and personal note, I shudder at a system that sees molestation to be a "great form of rehabilitation" for kids in Juvenile Detention Centers. I've had two uncles who were molested; one of which was molested by a member of the Big Brothers/Big Sisters organization in the 1950's when the family was going through a messy divorce.)-little coverage, and with the more powerful organizations implicated, a stronger violent tendency to repress the story [[Review this storyhttps://scandalmedia.wordpress.com/2...th-her-murder/ because 4 days later, an article states the Pastor is cleared and the lady was an "unhinged stalker". Could cut either way? We don't know for sure just based on what we are told.).

Better still, what is the mentality behind the reader who takes all this deluge of hype in unquestioningly? Do they just have a sick perchance for irony that believes all cops and clowns and postmen are seething evil elements? Do they immediately think about cults and "Guyana Berry Punch" when Kool-Aid is brought up [[a.: there was no Kool-Aid. and b.: to think that over 942 persons willingly drank poison is to admit mind-control, but to consider that initial doctors on the scene found injection marks, gun shot wounds, stab wounds, and strangulation marks on the bodies of over 912 mostly black individuals found there that were then left to rot in the jungle for months before being shipped for prompt cremation, or how Moscone-and others like Mondale- and Reagan turned a blind eye to Jonse's activity, and how a nosy Democratic congressman gets gunned down, and theories of C.I.A. or Green Beret involvement...well, that sounds a lot like an experiment in genocide. Yet, when does the America ever make genocide a hobby? Right? Oh, am I digressing way-too-off-base? So, is anyone who turned a thread about the presumption of "the churches" allowing Detroit to slide into making it an issue about Catholic sex abuse scandals.)?

The real underlying notion embedded in the mentality of any Protestant or secular minded type seeing how sexual abuse and the Catholics must seem "so fitting", has to do with their skewed belief that celibacy [[even if performed in it's own abiding and self-contained manner by an individual) is an affront to all they value in sex. Catholicism is one of the few churches that offers celibacy as an protective right and option [[and no one is putting a gun to anyone's head to become a priest here. They know what they are getting into.), where other churches may even try to shove family values so far down someone's throat, they attempt to fix up and play matchmaker [[a most hideous and unabiding intrusion of social engineering into someone's personal life in an area that is most critical and important), even if the two have very little in common with each other than being lonely attendees of the same church.

These are the folks who pigeon quote Freud and assume he was "all about sex" [[thus, incurring the presumptive criticism by equally illiterate clergymen who charge Freud with the same accusation). Freud was not all that stable and mentally hygienic a person himself, and while he deemed sex [[or just as much the obsession over it as also with the very repression of it-on the other side of the coin.) the cause of many mental ills, he never saw it as the "cure all" [[in fact, I highly recommend reading Szasz's sarcastically entitled "Sex by Prescription"-for I'm of the mindset that "yes, sex is a big thing, but dang, it really isn't everything. C'mon folks.").

They judge and base people on sex appeal and on who gets "some" and who doesn't [[news for you all, a majority of Americans are not sexy and are not getting "some")-much of the bulk of Maher's scathing humor. Many are obliterative-chasing nihilist hedonists who probably wouldn't cope well with aging or suffering an injury or disease that would affect them sexually. I say obliterative, for many are so living for the moment [[with little regard to the future) that they hope to die before getting too old. While I can appreciate quality and daring virility of life on par with the quantity of life, as well, you will find many of these mind-sets are obliterative obsessed with their own gratification and are down-to-the-wire more bent towards a culture of death than a culture of life. No ambiguism in that matter can justify them, in that case.

To them sex is a power greater than God [[if they even believe in God) and repression is the "devil" or "demon possessing" someone [[like me, a person who went 13 years celibate-no molestations performed here.) who de-emphasizes the importance of sex they hold so dearly. These are the mind-sets who foolishly think [[as Buddy Hackett and Jim Jarmusch so erringly did-God bless their souls) you can "shock a priest" [[Priests and even the Amish are representatives of a very old and long-enduring institution that have seen it all and handled it all from genocides, to atrocities, to empires rising and falling, to all things biological-be it lepers, any narrative regarding any variety of sexual sins, man's depravity, or messy biology-as the Amish will attest with animal births and deaths.); nope, the Catholics are surprisingly more open and accepting about the body [[though very cold shower about it, and i feel sorry for those raised on the Baltimore catechism.) than your Ken doll neutered mentality found in many Mormons and Evangelical WASPs [[ahem, ie. Lutherans-as I can personally attest.) who evade the issue altogether.

Even if most folks are not fully given to this flawed ideology, they've let culture, their upbringing, society, media, the internet [[just try finding monogamy-which does exist and has succeeded-brought up in a positive light on a simple Google search), humor [[notice a lowest common denominator trend in SNL's recent shrill humor in the last 10 years that depicts undesirable handicap folks trying to be sexy?), the very sports bars they hang out in, and the American tendency to embrace a sort of civil religion [[where Elvis is Christ, Tom Hanks is pope, Marilyn Monroe is the Virgin Mary, and the Beatle's are the four Gospel writers) to subtly shape their over-all rounded view and understanding of the world [[but in a more encompassing retrospective stance of considering all things from all times and regions, their view is quite limited and horse-blindered.). Thus, sex is sublimely embedded in as an unquestioned and irresistible force, and attempts to resist it will cause one to do something aberrant like child molestation-"99.9%" guaranteed. Right??

After all, we would also want to consider that in the great strategy of things, if you can't take something down from the outside, the inside is a better place to start [[after all, Disney stated it was only troublemakers on the inside who painted the "Phallus on the Palace on all the Little Mermaid posters and covers they quite effectively recalled-though I have two copies as examples kicking around.), and given some of the forces working against the Catholic church for a very long time, I must wonder...

I say all of these many words to squash-right now-the tired child-molestation narrative that far too many folks chime in about with out regarding all the encompassing facts, motives, and examples available I just initially outlined [[or the imbalanced availability alone online will trigger some sense of higher deduction, I'd hope. I noticed it quite well-and with much puzzlement-as a media watchdog prior to becoming a born-again Christian.). In fact, take up reading the articles of Pulitzer Prize winner, Dorothy Rabinowitz, as a starter.

To you all I ask: stick to the thread; it is a topic about "the churches" [[pff) and their "ambivalent disregard" [[double pff) to the "decline" of Detroit. The topic of molestation is very serious, but the off-handed nature to just casually insert it in any chance one can or to so callously throw it out as your mere careless means to stampede war-engine-style with an attack on religion [[or Catholics specifically) only reveals more about the unabiding bug up your own arse than it does about any genuinely researched attempt to tackle a grave topic.

If that be the case than, just go take your hatred to the many, many forgotten threads in DY archives started by those who found it trendy to mindlessly follow the fashion of attacking religion, and the Catholic church in particular, with presumptive, tired mimicked rhetoric and with clumsy sweeping generalizations, and citations of how the Catholics were so tyrannical [[without really considering who was once backing them in those days prior to the 14th century fall-out) during the dark ages. Be as loud and stupid as you want on those threads, so we can ignore you and the dumb thread you were meant to be on.

More over, I'm just pleading to DY folks to stop being so dang typical. For I've seen better out of you all. So, end the attempt now to steer things in stupid directions, or just end this stupid thread, now.

[bust]

G-DDT, I respect your opinions, I admire your charity work, and I'm endlessly entertained by your stream-of-consciousness writing style and the life stories you generously share with us here. I do not mean to pick a fight with you.

My point was merely to provide a fuller picture of reality using an example from personal family experience. If christian hospitals were pure in their charity my great-grandfather would not have been turned away for lack of money and my infant great-uncle may not have died.

It would obviously not be fair to say most christians would act like the nun who turned my family away. And of course most catholic organizations do not behave so uncharitably. On the contrary. However it would equally not be fair to say the church and its hospitals are pure in their history of thanklessly feeding the poor and caring for the sick. To say so is to deny the reality of my family history and the fact that for simple financial reasons a christian hospital turned them away.

You asked for more specifics. That was 100 years ago. They lived where the Heidelberg project exists today. The hospital would have been the closest one to there.

I grew up very close to this side of my family. For a time we shared a home with two siblings of the deceased. A third lived in the home over the back fence. His fourth lived a block away. When we moved into a home of our own it was only a few blocks away.

We were catholic. My mom converted to catholocism in order for their marriage to have the church's blessing, to say nothing of my dad's family's. Both parents were employed by catholic organizations [[my mom's provided no pension so I did not complain about hers). I was confirmed. I briefly attended a catholic school. I know the church -- or at least the version I saw -- very well.

I respect much of what it does. And I respect those who benefit from it. But I am neither blind to its faults nor to its past.

In my post above my primary complaint was about how the catholic hospital turned my family away. You did not address that, and I'm not asking you to. My secondary complaint was about how the catholic church is a veritable multinational corporation that has organized itself to extract wealth and carefully protect it, expertly exploiting available laws, its federated structure, and recently, selective bankruptcy. I could have added to that how it exists in its own proprietary tax haven with its finances tucked away in its own black hole bank hidden from public view. I'm not asking you to address that either.

What you spent a long time addressing was the sex abuse scandal, which was only incidental to my post. It's a fact that expenses related to the sex abuse scandal are a main cause of the bankruptcy of the Detroit archdiocese [[among several others). In fact, they're the main cause. I did not belabor the point, but it's particularly upsetting that my father lost his pension because of that. That someone active in the church was unaware seems a confirmation they don't provide the whole picture.

You asked for evidence. You can find it here:

https://www.dailydac.com/commercialb...eorganizations

It says that the 14 diocese bankruptcy cases in the U.S. are mass tort cases resulting from sex abuse claims, Detroit's included.

I was careful to select evidence from a site that cannot in any way be construed as anti-catholic or anti-religion. It is the site of a law firm providing advice how the church can minimize its bankruptcy legal expenses by proactively mediating the sex abuse cases. It says:

"...These cases arrive at a common innovation for successful reorganization: 'proactive mediation.' This is the great reorganization innovation of today."

It's business, after all.

Godspeed G-DDT.

[dtowncitylover]

You asked for evidence. You can find it here:

https://www.dailydac.com/commercialb...eorganizations

It says that the 14 diocese bankruptcy cases in the U.S. are mass tort cases resulting from sex abuse claims, Detroit's included.

I was careful to select evidence from a site that cannot in any way be construed as anti-catholic or anti-religion. It is the site of a law firm providing advice how the church can minimize its bankruptcy legal expenses by proactively mediating the sex abuse cases. It says:

"...These cases arrive at a common innovation for successful reorganization: 'proactive mediation.' This is the great reorganization innovation of today."

It's business, after all.

Godspeed G-DDT.

Bust, nowhere in that article you provided does it list the Archdiocese of Detroit has having declared bankruptcy. From what I can gather through this article and my own searches, the Archdiocese of Detroit has not declared bankruptcy...yet.

The Detroit archdiocese actually fared better than most dioceses in regards to the sex abuse scandal. While there were some reports of sex abuse not to the extent of Boston and not enough to lead to the AofD's bankruptcy. HOWEVER, from people I know who know the AofD, they are telling me that for the past 30 years the AofD and its churches has been very spendthrift and did not save much. This may lead to a bankruptcy.

If the Archdiocese of Detroit declared bankruptcy, I would think there would've been a separate thread about it.

[bust]

dtowncitylover, you're right. I read that article wrong. Detroit's is not among the 14 dioceses. I'm surprised by that. My dad's information must be incorrect. There must be some other explanation. Very confused.

[SDCC]

Catholic Churches perform are critical role in Detroit; there are a few I’ve experienced, St. Cecilia, St. Leo, and St. Aloysius. They provide a variety of services and assistance to whoever requests help. St Cecilia and St. Leo are two shining stars that are able to offer more than sustenance; from financial assistance, to gift cards, and everything in between. Gift cards come in different forms; they have gift cards from major retailers, to gift cards that can be redeemed at St. Vincent de Paul stores. Oh and St. Leo’s has a great lunch on Thursdays – free.
San Diegans would be lost without their St. Vincent de Paul – specifically the man that started it all – Father Joe. St Vinnies [[as its affectionately called) is the largest facility in San Diego housing homeless men, woman and children – nearly 1000 per night. There are ½ dozen fairly large buildings in what is called the village. Not just homeless people benefit, St. Vincent offers a free lunch every day but Sunday – which is when they serve brunch. The free lunch and brunch are offered to the citizens of San Diego – regardless of their situations. 2000 to 3000 lunches are served every day. If it’s cheeseburgers or another favorite, they may run out, oh, and a person can go through the line as many times as they want. For those residing at one of St. Vinnies facilities, they are offered 3 hots and a cot every day of the year. With an array of programs, including health and a dental clinic, it is one stop shopping for those in need.
When Father Joe got the call from his bishop [[early 70’s) to go over to St. Vinnies and help them out, they served peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on Saturday afternoons in a single building. It is now, and has been, the most complete all-encompassing homeless shelter in California.
Detroit and innumerable other cities have so far to go. Oh, I am a pagan - I follow the teachings of the Buddha.

http://my.neighbor.org/about-us/our-impact/

Father Joe Today

[compn]

i'm going to quote different people in one post here.

For those skeptical of the "church's" role in improving life throughout history, there seems to be a vast amnesia that can't recollect that a majority of our nation's long withstanding institutions of hospitals and universities were started by religious entities. The church was doing this and feeding the poor [[and caring for those on leper colonies, etc.-once again more thankless tasks for "lost causes" or those roles that can be chalked up to endlessly wearying "maintenance" that the church goes unsung for accomplishing) while society on one end furthered only itself by it's self-gratifying arts [[that didn't feed the masses), while society on the other end was content to live like a Bruegel painting wallowing in drunken and degradation [[because the choice was always theirs to make on the issue of self-improvement).

i'll never understand a catholic or christian who goes to church fully supporting feeding the poor and helping the sick but then turns around and votes for the politicians who want to end social security, end welfare and end unemployment help. i guess the 11th commandment is "fuck you, got mine".

Another question related to this thread: Why have African Americans adopted the Christian dogma of those who kidnapped and enslaved their ancestors?

probably for the same reason that other cultures and people switched to christianity. it worked for the missionaries?

probably the rebellious slaves were killed off. your name is toby.
then the next generation of slave children are brought up in the slave church and slavery is more of a job than a horrible stain on humanity, via propaganda and lies.

first usa colonies in the 1600s and slavery abolished in the 1800s. 200 years of slavery is a lot of time to control the minds of slaves. not to mention the thousands of years of slavery prior to the usa.

The black church however has almost a near Catholic-Quebec style of power over the city of Detroit from what I have observed. But I don't know much about it to write about its effect on the city's woes.

i remember kwame doing a lot of church stuff, and the church lobby is pretty large in detroit as well. maybe the church has some kind of solid voter block? curious how that played out for mayor duggan. information on the church's roles in detroit would be nice to read.

[dtowncitylover]

i remember kwame doing a lot of church stuff, and the church lobby is pretty large in detroit as well. maybe the church has some kind of solid voter block? curious how that played out for mayor duggan. information on the church's roles in detroit would be nice to read.

http://www.cus.wayne.edu/media/1355/blackchurches.pdf

This is a working paper about the subject.

[RaumVogel]

Still going:


http://metroumc.org/

[p69rrh51]

The corner churches have become inadvertent preservationists. Many of Detroit's branch bank buildings have to spared the wrecking ball due to the churches and other business' repurposing the buildings. The architects of the bank branches reads like a who's who of Detroit's best known designers.
Going back to the 1989 and the continuing closures of the Catholic churches in the city are disappointing. I think something could have been done to keep a majority of the parishes open as a neighborhood beacon. A concerted/creative fund raising program could have been created. Of course the herculean effort to pull that off was not in the cards with the Archdiocese. A story that resonates with me is from Fr. Karl of St. Anthony's. After taking over the church several years ago the bells were repaired. The kids in the neighborhood reported that the nearby drug dealers moved farther away from the church because they could not stand the bells chiming all day long. A small victory but very important. There are a handful well run soup kitchens that always need help and donations.

Designed by Louis Kamper. Central Savings Bank Branch 8944 Mack Avenue built in 1920 Detroit, MI.
Currently Mount Nebo Missionary Baptist Church.

[Danny]

The Church 's mission is to help people in need, not joining in worldly cultures. Having the church to help people in need and get each the every people to repent and covert to Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins will cause communities to revive, crime to suddenly disappear, politics to change for better, cities and governments to improve and nations to heal.

All churches in Detroit just any other churches all over world had done this practice. Fixing the community and healing the nation a block at a time.

The church still in power in Detroit and the church still fix the poor. I say to all you D-YES. Do not accuse all Detroit churches from preventing Detroit's side. For they did prevent Detroit from sliding.

[G-DDT]

You are right there, Danny.

Compn, it's a shame you may only be exposed to those sides of Catholics or Christians who have strong right-wing affiliations [[for there are many of them out there-especially in more affluent suburban regions) that take on and embrace an Ayn Rand "bootstrap" attitude towards politics and what comes down to legislation passed. I do find many Catholics [[especially in Detroit, itself, as the topic mostly centers upon) and some liberal-minded churches [[be they humble charity-minded Baptists or the few other denominations I've seen in College towns).

If it was a general observation of yours to mention the shame of those that act in such manner. I agree. With your EWTN, Pat Buchannan, Bill O' Reilly form of Catholics [[again, Catholicism is not as monolithic as many perceive it to be), this is a contradictory problem. Maybe I've chosen to immerse myself within such a more select [[Detroit Catholic) crowd that irons out such inconsistencies, I tend to gloss over that other knuckle-headish aspects do thrive.

Also, I can't defend everything about Catholicism, for I'm quite aware of many of it's flaws [[heck, I'm not that good at placing heavy emphasis on Marism, by spiritual nature), but I will speak up against the [[very, very) typical criticisms parroted by those out there.

Bust, I had no intention to attack you. In fact, all I had to address with you were the questions I asked within the first post after yours about the family. I got way too epic in my vain hopes of challenging "once and for all" and putting into greater perspective an issue that gets so tired and is so drummed into the ground by those hype-minded individuals who won't-even with a healthy sense of criticism towards mainstream media-stop to question certain aspects selectively ignored by the media outlets they once criticized [[ie. the clearings of charges and accusations made against some Priests, or the presence of such hideous activities among Protestants and Secular institutions not getting the same coverage.).

When you've traveled like I have, you find a heavy bias out there against Catholics. Tim Lahaye and Dan Brown with their incredibly flawed New York Times Bestsellers [[yeah, titled "Da Vinci Code"-hmm, didn't "Da Vinci" just connotate where he was from. If an important record of things surfaced decades later by a "Bob from Detroit", would it make sense to call it the "from Detroit Codex"?) didn't help, either. Not that I expect the "secret treasury of the Vatican" to be jammed full of nothing but the various religious folk artwork and mementos made throughout the decades by many challenged individuals, children, and indigenous peoples from all regions, though it would be a nice thought [[and a cute and ironic ending to an intriguing film). Yet, imagine what it was like going from city to city and finding charity at it's worse where Catholic charity was lacking [[ie. Battle Creek)-or coming to a town where the only good thing was the meal I got at a Catholic Soup Kitchen [[ie. Terre Haute-that, and the library there, which was oddly shaped and somehow had no problem with letting the few homeless on the streets who didn't stay at Davenport's prison-style shelter to just lay out on benches on the far wall and sleep away-very strange behavior for a library, indeed, but I do laugh everytime I see that reference made in "Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid.").

Worse still, is encountering every low-life who finds out you are Catholic and barks nasty stuff like "oh, so you liked being molested by priests when you were a little boy, eh?" [[always at least one in every town), or they assume that being Catholic means you like to abduct children and drag them into a church basement and hold them down, as a group of Catholic parishioners do their nastiest to them. at the very least, you get "Christians" who find out you are Catholic and think they are being so passively-aggressively sly [[without missing a beat) when they predictably ask "we should have a bible study soon" or "you should come check out my church."; sounds harmless, but it's a weasily way of suggesting "my faith/church is better than yours" and "I'm going to instruct you better" [[my brother and I have had many discussions in agreement about having witnessed that phenomenon occur many of times). Having come from a family of history-minded theologians, I've been to the services of every denomination at least three times over [[many times as a homeless person), I've done critical comparatives of the Western faiths, so, yeah, I have my many good reasons why I chose the fellowship I did, and what separates me from those that impose otherwise, is that I don't assume mine is the "only faith", nor do care-for the sake of abiding-what one chose for themselves. So, it gets wearying. Yet, I could say so much, much more....

[G-DDT]

^^^I will add, it gets overwhelming when one sees the amount of garish antipathy directed towards religion in general. Billboards in Times Square show it. People try to correlate time-honored religions with cults [["drinking the Kool-Aid" becomes a stupid spoon-fed platitude one get tired of, which is why I mentioned it earlier.). When I was in Boston you had guys acting like idiots like Harold Camping getting unprecedented heavy hype in the media [[even saw an older flyer of his on a post in Malden) and giving the religion-hating mindset there much undeserved fuel [[yet, one only see how abandoning God has fared for the spiritual and mental mindset of many Bostonians, and you have to wonder about things like "spiritual sickness".). When I was in Madison, the whole "Jesus's wife" nonsense from that King professor [[who wouldn't let folks see it or say where she got it, yet, she was already making TV deals over it) was taking place. Folks who hated on religion there and wanted to put Christ in a far more undeserved carnal context used that as their "evidence", but when that was a big shameful hoax, you heard very little retraction in the media. I myself suffered a lot of harassment from folks who simply just couldn't shrug and keep their unbelief to themselves; it really rankled them terribly to see someone quietly praying to themselves before they ate. Again, abiding is the key word here.

[G-DDT]

Now as to get back on topic, aside from the points I brought up about "Health-n-Wealth" and much general affluent apathy among some churches, another form of ideology that can bring about a lack of charity is "assurance-based faith". Without getting too much into the tenets of it [[or quoting a lot of things from the letter to the Hebrews in the new Testament) or heavily debating soteriology with others of DY, if taken too far, assurance-based ideology has some pitfalls.

Aside from the over-preoccupation with acquiring heaven [[vs. being decent towards others because it just simply needs to be done) and over-presumption of one's own checker-flag achieved salvation, assurance-based faith produces a passivity or complacency that dictates that "since good works don't give me salvation, but faith alone, I'm not required to engage in good works". This couldn't be further from the truth. Yes, faith alone saves [[especially for the worst people who are of the lucky .0003% or so who can recant on their deathbed), but while you are given the time you have on this Earth with the resources you have [[he who has been given much more will be asked) you do what good you can, for faith without works is dead. Yet, more can be said on that.

A similar passivity occurs with "let go and let God" mentalities who over-emphasize and take that way too far that they forget all the many action verbs present in the New Testament scripture [[Do, strive, labor, study, persevere, etc.). Granted as Christians, God's will comes first [[and there are a slew of "church heads" who are more than willing to intrude, burden, and dictate to others what "God's will" is for them-as if they were God themselves or God's closest buddy-in regards to anyone's personal life be it diet, sleep schedule, dress, residence, what businesses to support, what secular forms of entertainment to patronize, occupation, or even who to marry), but to forget that "you are a unique child of God full of potential" is a peril in itself. Often those held in sway by this ideology forget that they are just as much an instrument and representative of God's good will, and to assume "it will all work out on God's good time if they just back off" is assuming too much in a certain direction, while they accuse those who do indeed labor in good works of pressuming too much in the other opposite direction [[they are also fond of saying "You can't outgive God" as it is their own escape clause when the issue of charity comes up-yes, you can't outgive God, but such a gross absolute prevents one from doing exactly that which Christ asks of us.). This reaction is understandable as anyone can try to turn anything into a competitive game of one-uppance, and how much mission-work time put in or many Rice Krispie squares made for the bake sale should never be used to compare oneself over others [[one King of the Hill that had Peggy Hill trying to outgive blood over her Asian neighbor comes to mind), as we each give according to their ability.

This ideology may've also developed when one reckons with unrealistic expectations, or a disappointment and grave self-doubt they've developed for themselves when they severely have stumbled due to their prior self-gratifying manias and ambitions [[ie. drug-fueled frenzied benders that hit a brick wall); recovery groups tend to push a tad bit too hard to strip folks of their own God-given will, individuality, intellect, and intuitions [[the very God-given intuitions and spiritual discernment that help foster a healthy sense of skepticism to call B.S. on a lot of flawed religious institutions that look to strip them of their liberties in the first place)-this is also a method used by groups/cults that enforce control on those unsure of themselves after having let themselves down prior. Anything can send anyone onto a "new life" spiritually from the previous rotten path that let them down, but to dispense with all these God-given abilities is a gross miscalculation [[like the folk's who just want to give all their possessions away with the first month of their "new walk"-when no such call to sacrifice is requested of them).

Both ideologies depicted here can be heavily employed by those dispensational mindsets [[or other apocalyptic-emphasizing groups)-usually serving every politically right-wing ideology that surpassing anything "spiritual" in the end [[because that is what it rather boiled down for them-the political aspects being locked in)-who state that "attempting to achieve peace or good works in this doomed Earth is like trying to [[stale platitude alert in 5,4,3,2,1,..) 'polish the brass fittings on a sinking ship'."

Once you read enough of the Gospels [[and other scriptures and balance things in interpretation and tempering issues better) and actively compare the emphasis put on the ideologies I illustrated on this thread, you start to get an idea of the very ugly politics lurking behind them that tend to supplant balanced scriptural doctrine in regards to charity and social justice. J

ust get a good look at Colbert incisively critiquing one guy's spiritually-skewed politics by playing Devil's Advocate with another one who isn't spiritually skewed.
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/oymi80...--james-martin

[Wesley Mouch]

Now as to get back on topic, ...
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/oymi80...--james-martin

DDT, I read every word of your posts, and [[probably to your horror) agree with virtually every word. And greatly appreciate your insight.

You are quite right. All human behavior is flaws. And all human institutions are flawed. Its easy to imagine a perfect future after the Sanders [[or name your) revolution. And its easy to criticize today's institutions for their flaws. Harder to remember that like the Catholic Church, many institutions have done so much for humanity -- but do have major warts too.

I also want to applaud you for your defense of Catholicism. Major flaws here and there, but overall one of the finest institutions of our world. Remember that they are not alone in Nazi sympathy and sexual abuse nor any other scandal you can name.

I'd also applaud your note that we shouldn't lump all Catholics [[or Christians or liberals or conservatives) into one bucket. Each group has diversity of thought and philosophy. I have to pick Republicanism, warts and all [[and they are big warts), because I don't believe that government interventionism is the right solution to our social problems. But I disagree with almost every Tea Party platform plank, and am quite socially liberal -- hard as that may be to believe. I regularly get painted here with a conservative brush -- but the world is more nuanced. For everyone of every background, understand that they are not all in agreement with everything their associates preach.

At the risk of destroying your reputation, it was a great post. Thanks.

[Hypestyles]

houses of worship have to evolve for the better, to better meet the needs of the communities they reside in. "End of Days" rhetoric isn't good enough anymore. Get out of people's bedrooms. I don't care about the gay person in the neighborhood. I can't find a job. Drilling for oil on church grounds is rather obscene to me, but I have to grudgingly acknowledge that it's par for the course for today's prosperity-sympathetic congregants. As an aside, where are the urban-based church/mosque credit unions to help give local people fair mortgages, business loans and fairer banking practices than the ubiquitous Bank of America [[and their kin?)
"Saving souls" isn't the be all, end-all, anymore, and the internal culture of various institutions should have changed decades ago, but either they didn't, or they evolved into a barely-veiled parallel of the corporate world of acquisitions, spinoffs, profiteerism disguised as nonprofit outreach, and more..
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...hurch_20160124

[Wesley Mouch]

houses of worship have to evolve for the better, to better meet the needs of the communities they reside in. "End of Days" rhetoric isn't good enough anymore. Get out of people's bedrooms. I don't care about the gay person in the neighborhood. I can't find a job. Drilling for oil on church grounds is rather obscene to me, but I have to grudgingly acknowledge that it's par for the course for today's prosperity-sympathetic congregants. As an aside, where are the urban-based church/mosque credit unions to help give local people fair mortgages, business loans and fairer banking practices than the ubiquitous Bank of America [[and their kin?)
"Saving souls" isn't the be all, end-all, anymore, and the internal culture of various institutions should have changed decades ago, but either they didn't, or they evolved into a barely-veiled parallel of the corporate world of acquisitions, spinoffs, profiteerism disguised as nonprofit outreach, and more..
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...hurch_20160124

It only seems obscene to me when coupled with misused and greed. If you are wisely using the God's land, and using income to help the poor, it seems appropriate.

[G-DDT]

I don't agree with the drilling, and yeah, crusades for [[various shifting values on) "decency" have always turned into bloody and disgraceful witch-hunts. The church can maintain it's position, stand it's ground, and speak up about ills they see in society with pro-actively imposing into the lives of others and violating the virtue of abiding.

Contrary to what many believe, there are churches not always in it for the money. There are also those that make sure that their mindful eye on salvation would never intrude upon the importance of doing good in a world direly in need of it at all times.

[Wesley Mouch]

I don't agree with the drilling, and yeah, crusades for [[various shifting values on) "decency" have always turned into bloody and disgraceful witch-hunts. The church can maintain it's position, stand it's ground, and speak up about ills they see in society with pro-actively imposing into the lives of others and violating the virtue of abiding.

Contrary to what many believe, there are churches not always in it for the money. There are also those that make sure that their mindful eye on salvation would never intrude upon the importance of doing good in a world direly in need of it at all times.

Is decency any more definable than pornography? In that is the problem.

Chuches should have principles, I think. And yes, they sometimes turn into witch hunts. But if you're looking for witch hunts, I think BLM and the hunt for racists is a larger problem.