Recall Snyder Petitions at front of Royal Oak Post Office

[JBMcB]

Just so we're all on the same page as to why we are trying to kick the current
governor out of office:


It's that bump down there between 2015 and 2016. That's where Snyder was poisoning Flint's kids. You can ignore everything before 2010, Snyder wasn't governor back then.

Source: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...ing-kids-flint

[gnome]

I am a Republican and voted for Snyder twice plus I would vote for him again if my choices were Virg or Schauer.

However, Snyder needs to step down because he has lost credibility.

i will explain in detail when I have more time.

[313WX]

so theres a couple reasons people want to recall snyder

1. some think snyder holds some blame for flint water poisoning.

2. snyder either ignored or was not aware of the poisoning. garbage or ignorant, your choice.

3. snyder was proxy-running the state of michigan with a bunch of unelected garbage that ignored the poisoning. some of his proxies like brad wurfel actively lied to the people. wonder if dennis muchmore can sleep at night? my point is we elected snyder to run the state, not a bunch of unelected, unaccountable hacks.

4. snyder has not fixed MDEQ or MDHHS garbage employees in the 7+ months [[oct-april) since he learned of the poisoning.

and for the record i voted for schauer.

Hell, I voted for Bernero...

Speaking of Bernero, while Der Fuhrer continues to waste time begging the Feds for a bailout and dragging his feet with replacing the corroded pipes, Virg has taken the initiatives to replace ALL of the lead pipe lines in Detroit, which is what a leader who's truly concerned about the health and welfare of their constituents should do.

[ABetterDetroit]

All the politicizing of this issue is shameful. The democrats went to flint and acted like republicans were intentionally trying to kill black and poor people. The republicans are acting like this is nothing but the result of incompetent bureaucrats they had no control over.

The facts are simple. A bad decision was made, horribly executed and then the response to the problem was inexcusably late. All politics aside the Governer is responsible for the high human and financial cost for this disaster on his watch. Snyder is now a political dead man walking and if he cared about the people of this state as much as he says he does he would do the decent thing and resign.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

ABetterDetroit, I disagree with your ultimate conclusion, but your reasoning is sound, rational, and refreshing. I agree entirely that the politicizing is shameful. And the long list of politicians OUTRAGED over this who have shown no outrage over so many other things that hurt kids would be comical if it weren't sad. Flint's troubled, poorly educated, poverty stricken, opportunity deprived and frequently unhealthy kids, well, now they are suddenly important?

I'm fine with the Governor resigning, although I don't think he needs to do it. It would mostly be a feel good gesture, and not have any real effect on what is going on now. If it would allow the acrimony to go away and everyone to return to responsible and not hysterical public discourse, he should definitely do it. But I doubt it would do that. Nixon resigned because he realized he could no longer govern. If Snyder is in that condition [[and I don't think he is at this point), he should resign. If he's not, he should just plug along and continue trying to fix the situation.

[Wesley Mouch]

Wesley will never understand this. His nose is so far up Snyder's ass and for some reason he only smells roses. As someone whose house is essentially worthless due to this I do not give a fuck what his political affiliation is he has got to go. That isn't mentioning the 11 dead and countless children who will be affected by this for the rest of their lives.

I ignorantly blame decades of incompetent leadership. I know nothing of Flint -- but the UAW's murder of the City tells me of its politics. I think the blame for Flint's water is better put on years of incompetence and malicious actions than on one single event.

Body counts are disagreeable. But I think there are more than 11 dead bodies in Flint for hundreds of reasons. The war on drugs leading the pack. Followed by misguided welfare programs.

I hope you can understand my typing. Its cramped up here. My elbows hurt my host when I type.

[Baselinepunk]

"I ignorantly blame decades of incompetent leadership. I know nothing of Flint -- but the UAW's murder of the City tells me of its politics. I think the blame for Flint's water is better put on years of incompetence and malicious actions than on one single event."

Wow. That's the worst statement I've read in a while.

You really can't put a price tag on this kind of comedy.

Please keep proving a lot of people's points, Wes.

[Jimaz]

"I ignorantly blame decades of incompetent leadership. I know nothing of Flint -- but the UAW's murder of the City tells me of its politics. I think the blame for Flint's water is better put on years of incompetence and malicious actions than on one single event."

Wow. That's the worst statement I've read in a while.

You really can't put a price tag on this kind of comedy.

Please keep proving a lot of people's points, Wes.

Forgive him for he knows not what he does.

[313WX]

Anyone know of any locations near downtown or midtown?

To answer your question, they'll be taking signatures from 6am to 4pm every Saturday at the Eastern Market.

They're also arranging to have signatures taken at the Main Post Office.

[Wesley Mouch]

All the politicizing of this issue is shameful. The democrats went to flint and acted like republicans were intentionally trying to kill black and poor people. The republicans are acting like this is nothing but the result of incompetent bureaucrats they had no control over.

The facts are simple. A bad decision was made, horribly executed and then the response to the problem was inexcusably late. All politics aside the Governer is responsible for the high human and financial cost for this disaster on his watch. Snyder is now a political dead man walking and if he cared about the people of this state as much as he says he does he would do the decent thing and resign.

ABD, I respect your conclusion, but I don't see how it is 'all politics aside'?

I agree that Snyder is DMW now. He's been slaughtered, and his career is over. What I am afraid of is that a resignation only rewards the shameful politicization.

For a second, let's allow that Snyder make the bad decision, and it was a willful [[or ignorant) act by Snyder. Do we believe that politicians should always be removed when something goes wrong? Even if we agree that its just in the case of Snyder, do we all not agree that this will have a 'chilling effect' on anybody's efforts to actually do things for our cities?

I don't care if Snyder gets deposed. I care if the next governor says 'I'm not touching Flint with a 10-foot pole' when we want leaders to engage?

[Meddle]

Wesley will never understand this. His nose is so far up Snyder's ass and for some reason he only smells roses. As someone whose house is essentially worthless due to this I do not give a fuck what his political affiliation is he has got to go. That isn't mentioning the 11 dead and countless children who will be affected by this for the rest of their lives.

When I see statements like:

Tossing out all of the oh-so well-meaning liberals ...

The poster instantly has Zero credibility like the rest of the Trumpers. I cut them a little slack though due to their obvious mental impairment.

[313WX]

ABD, I respect your conclusion, but I don't see how it is 'all politics aside'?

I agree that Snyder is DMW now. He's been slaughtered, and his career is over. What I am afraid of is that a resignation only rewards the shameful politicization.

For a second, let's allow that Snyder make the bad decision, and it was a willful [[or ignorant) act by Snyder. Do we believe that politicians should always be removed when something goes wrong? Even if we agree that its just in the case of Snyder, do we all not agree that this will have a 'chilling effect' on anybody's efforts to actually do things for our cities?

I don't care if Snyder gets deposed. I care if the next governor says 'I'm not touching Flint with a 10-foot pole' when we want leaders to engage?

Let me ask you this.

Do you [[and others who insist on defending Snyder) not believe someone who has accepted responsibility for a tragedy that caused the poisoning of thousands and numerous death should face consequences?

When you were a child and you accepted responsibility for doing something against your parent's wishes [[I.E. something wrong), they either grounded you or gave you one hell of a spanking. Should Snyder not face something equivalent?

And if you do think they should face consequences, what's your idea of consequences?

Besides assistance with fixing the problem, don't the people who were irreversibly harmed in this tragedy also deserve justice knowing those who have accepted responsibility are also punished accordingly?

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

313WX, do you feel that voters and politicians in Flint who elected people who served their community so badly for so long that things like water could no longer be paid for deserve any blame? Don't get me wrong, Snyder and his appointees were at the very least negligent. But that negligence occurred while stepping in to fix a completely broke and non-functioning government. If a doctor accidentally triggers a heart attack while performing surgery on a 500 pound guy who smoked 3 packs a day, I am not sure I would really blame the doctor exclusively. Flint and its services were messed up long for ages. Local people didn't try to fix it. Why is no one in Flint taking any blame themselves. Kids are victims, to be sure. The adults, if unintentionally, reaped what they sowed.

[313WX]

313WX, do you feel that voters and politicians in Flint who elected people who served their community so badly for so long that things like water could no longer be paid for deserve any blame?

The fact is the state Snyder is administering, and the appointees that Snyder himself appointed, made the decisions that caused this tragedy, not the citizens of Flint nor the city's elected officials.

The fact also is Snyder has accepted responsibility for what happened, which he should.

With those facts in mind, that question you and others keep asking is nonsense. Despite Flint has financial problems for a long time before this happened, they didn't have issues with the quality of their water until AFTER the state took over and made its subsequent decisions relative to the water supply.

Even in the slim chance that he had no say in the decisions made [[which I doubt, given how pivotal he was with DPS' EM in launching the EAA), as Senator Matt Cartwright stated, Snyder can claim plausible deniability all day because he wasn't included in any emails [[as far as we've seen so far), but he was not incapacitated to the point that he was completely left out of verbal communications and, IMO, only an idiot would assume someone wouldn't tell their boss [[who signs their paycheck and can fire them at-will) for several months about a tragedy this big occurring.

[Meddle]

Of all the reasons to dump Tricky Dicky and his like-minded cohorts across the country, I'm not sure this is even on the list.


Has there been any indication he personally has any culpability at all? Being the head of a dysfunctional and biased government doesn't necessarily make one responsible for all of the ills.

[313WX]

Of all the reasons to dump Tricky Dicky and his like-minded cohorts across the country, I'm not sure this is even on the list.


Has there been any indication he personally has any culpability at all? Being the head of a dysfunctional and biased government doesn't necessarily make one responsible for all of the ills.

Do you don't believe in the philosophy of "the buck stops here?"

Also, are you suggesting poisoning thousands of people and the death of numerous people is not a good reason to suggest leaders be held accountable?

For me at least [[I can't speak for everyone else), it goes well beyond politics when it comes to damaging the health and welfare of fellow human beings for the sake of money, covering up the damage then dragging your feet to fix the damage.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

With those facts in mind, that question you and others keep asking is nonsense. Despite Flint has financial problems for a long time before this happened, they didn't have issues with the quality of their water until AFTER the state took over and made its subsequent decisions relative to the water supply.

I am not looking to absolve Snyder and his appointees of any blame. They made the decision to switch water systems, which set in motion the consumption of the lead tainted water. But they were only there to make that decision because Flint's leaders [[and yes, voters) for decades had essentially ruined their own city, and lacked the financial ability to function on their own any further. That is not in any way nonsense. Lack of adequate lighting in Detroit for years caused higher crime rates, including higher murder, robbery, carjacking, assault and arson statistics. Bad government begets bad things. Should Detroit leaders have been recalled year in and year out for the death and mayhem failing to maintain proper public lighting caused? Where is the outrage that many people have been killed on darkened blocks? I think most on the left can only see evil if they think it's on the right.

And don't forget that officials in Flint cooperated on and approved of the switch, and EPA [[no Republicans there!) officials knew and let them keep drinking that water for months and months, and never sounded an alarm. There is plenty of blame to go around, including for Snyder. I just wonder why Snyder is the only one people want to quit.

The terrible plight of Flint's children only became a concern for most people when the one blamed was a Republican. They've had a rough lot for ages, but that didn't matter when there wasn't a Snyder to blame. When all the lead is out of the water, the left in Flint and Michigan and Washington will still screw over the kids on education and economic opportunity, but that won't matter unless Snyder can be blamed.

[Jimaz]

... But [Snyder and his appointees] were only there to make that decision because Flint's leaders [[and yes, voters) ... lacked the financial ability to function on their own any further....

And here it's important to remember that the cost of Lansing's fix will now far exceed any originally anticipated savings. Does that not exhibit even worse financial management skills than whatever came before?

"Seagull managers fly in, make a lot of noise, dump on everyone, then fly out."

— Ken Blanchard

[313WX]

I am not looking to absolve Snyder and his appointees of any blame.

Right. Instead, you're trying your hardest to spread blame where it can't be spread. I got that much.

But they were only there to make that decision because Flint's leaders [[and yes, voters) for decades had essentially ruined their own city, and lacked the financial ability to function on their own any further. That is not in any way nonsense.

What's nonsense is that you're trying to imply that Flint couldn't have safe drinking water despite its financial problems. The fact is, despite Flint's financial problems, the city did have safe drinking water prior to the April 2014 switch. If the water supply was never switched, Flint would likely still have safe drinking water today and we wouldn't be discussing any of this.

And don't forget that officials in Flint cooperated on and approved of the switch

As made clear in the Independent Task Force report, the official in Flint only approved of the switch to the KWA. They DID NOT approve of using the Flint River as an interim water source, nor did they approve of not adding anti-corrosion addictives to the water.

and EPA [[no Republicans there!) officials knew and let them keep drinking that water for months and months, and never sounded an alarm.

The Independent Task Force report didn't place any blame on the EPA, FWIW [[or do you think the Task Force report is inaccurate?)

To elaborate, The EPA’s role is to establish treatment standards and monitoring techniques, and provide technical assistance, she said. The state acts as the primary regulator of water operations.

According to the Safe Water Drinking Act, the EPA couldn't act until the State of Michigan did its part. Instead, the State of Michigan kept insisting what the EPA recommend was incorrect and stonewalled their technical assistance.

BTW, the head of the regional EPA office at least had enough decency to resign [[like a true leader should do when they've failed their constituents), despite the fact that she doesn't bear the responsibility that Snyder does in all of this.

the left in Flint and Michigan and Washington

So the true feelings finally came out. As someone said earlier, one's credibility is lost quickly when political statements like that are made given this is a nonpartisan tragedy.

[emu steve]

Glad to see people exercising their 'voting' rights, but just don't fool yourself that this is anything but politics. Snyder was hardly alone in this disaster. Nor was this disaster the only disaster for Flint, Detroit, or Michigan.

It probably feels good to blame your enemy, but its not very insightful or effective. Tossing out all of the oh-so well-meaning liberals that have been destroying Detroit with their misguided love would make more sense.

Sounds like we have a post written by the RNC [[Republican National Committee) or even by the Ted Cruz for President campaign...

Rule #1 [[politics): "The best defense is a good offense... attack, attack, attack" E.g., when someone says "Congress sucks", don't man up, own it, admit it and change, but then go out and attack the President.

[JBMcB]

Despite Flint has financial problems for a long time before this happened, they didn't have issues with the quality of their water until AFTER the state took over and made its subsequent decisions relative to the water supply.

Check the graph on top of page 2 of the discussion. They have had some pretty major problems with water before the switch-over.

One of the reasons the new administrators were hesitant to dump the anti-corrosion chemicals into the water supply was they worried it would spur bacterial growth in the pipes, a problem Flint had with the water supply for quite a while.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/flint-wa...sion-decision/

[gumby]

I am not looking to absolve Snyder and his appointees of any blame. They made the decision to switch water systems, which set in motion the consumption of the lead tainted water. But they were only there to make that decision because Flint's leaders [[and yes, voters) for decades had essentially ruined their own city, and lacked the financial ability to function on their own any further. That is not in any way nonsense. Lack of adequate lighting in Detroit for years caused higher crime rates, including higher murder, robbery, carjacking, assault and arson statistics. Bad government begets bad things. Should Detroit leaders have been recalled year in and year out for the death and mayhem failing to maintain proper public lighting caused? Where is the outrage that many people have been killed on darkened blocks? I think most on the left can only see evil if they think it's on the right.

And don't forget that officials in Flint cooperated on and approved of the switch, and EPA [[no Republicans there!) officials knew and let them keep drinking that water for months and months, and never sounded an alarm. There is plenty of blame to go around, including for Snyder. I just wonder why Snyder is the only one people want to quit.

The terrible plight of Flint's children only became a concern for most people when the one blamed was a Republican. They've had a rough lot for ages, but that didn't matter when there wasn't a Snyder to blame. When all the lead is out of the water, the left in Flint and Michigan and Washington will still screw over the kids on education and economic opportunity, but that won't matter unless Snyder can be blamed.

You do realize one of the reasons we [[Flint) have had financial issues is because state revenue sharing to cities has been drastically reduced by Snyder? Not to mention property values were destroyed by the hosing crisis which led to property tax revenue dropping by more than half. Last I checked that wasn't our fault either. When I moved into my house in 2007 I was paying $2200 per year now I pay just under $1000 and that is all over the city. I am not sure what the city is expected to realistically do when their income is dropped by more than half in under a decade.

[313WX]

Check the graph on top of page 2 of the discussion. They have had some pretty major problems with water before the switch-over.

I saw the graph. What I didn't see was anything that suggests the numbers in that graph were related to the quality of the water.

To be clear, Flint was receiving a finished product when purchasing water from Detroit and has the same lead service pipes delivering that water that the city of Detroit has. The city of Detroit BTW, as we all know and Marc Edwards reaffirmed in his study, still has some of the highest quality drinking water in the world despite its lead service pipes.

One of the reasons the new administrators were hesitant to dump the anti-corrosion chemicals into the water supply was they worried it would spur bacterial growth in the pipes, a problem Flint had with the water supply for quite a while.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/flint-wa...sion-decision/

Which goes back to the question of why were they in so much of a hurry to switch to an unknown source if they had concerns about the dangers of doing so?

Either way, it does in no way absolve blame where its deserved and, in addition to having the problems fixed, there should still be consequences.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

So the true feelings finally came out.

In all the years I have posted on this board, I have never hidden that am very conservative. No truth suddenly revealed there. Also, while some partisan points are off topic and innappropriate, the root causes of urban decay [[including in Flint and Detroit) are explicitly partisan. Leftist policies destroy cities. Especially when administered unchecked for decades. To pretend that a well run and successful Flint was suddenly upended and poisoned by mal-intended Republicans is at least very naive. Flint's inability to run its own affairs is well established [[hey, read the Flint Journal for a week, any week, since 1980).

Flint's water will get fixed. But otherwise the city will not measurably improve until it radically alters the way it does business. Detroit is finally getting a handle on city government, and two things have done that. First, Snyder's EM successfully put the city on sound footing, in part aided by bankruptcy. Second, we now have a mayor who is willing to acknowledge that the old ways of doing business don't work. There is hope in Detroit because we aren't stuck in an unthinking leftist past anymore. Flint should take note.

[birwood]

Are they also going to include the Flint City Council and Mayor?