New parking garage next to Comerica Park sought

[emu steve]

To help keep the facts straight, here are some details on the arena funding:

It's financed by $450M in bonds. Olympia will pay back $200M. Detroit's Downtown Development Authority, run by the Detroit Economic Growth Corp, will pay back the remaining $250M. The DDA is supported by a property tax levied within its district.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...re-are-answers

If Olympia invests or "causes to invest" at least $200M around the arena within 5 years after it opens, the DDA will credit Olympia an additional $62M.

http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/olympia-arena-promises-additional-development/Content?oid=21441'
Total funding for Olympia: $250M, up to $312M [[from DDA property taxes).
That doesn't include the value of any donated city-owned properties.

And those are just some of the facts. I don't have the information to understand all the complexities of the deal, like the ownership and lease arrangements of the various properties involved, the cost of the various necessary infrastructure to suport them, and what the breakdown is for who pays for that. Nor do I understand the broader economic considerations when funding comes from CBD property taxes, via the DDA.... Finance is not my area.

I'm pretty sure this is a great deal for the Ilitches. It's beyond me to assess whether it's a good deal for the city too.

My complaint about the Ilitches is focused on their long history of neglecting to maintain, leaving to rot, or tearing down so many of the properties they own. Their abandoned buildings and large swaths of parking lots are eyesores that weigh heavy on the CBD. Many are [[or were) handsome structures that if rehabilitated and put back into service would provide a strong uplifting force to the local economy. It irks me that when they campaign for city assisstance they've so often heralded the great benefits their projects will bring, then failed to follow through. When today they try to entice us to believe their arena will inspire a thriving residential neighborhood to crop up around it -- it looks to me like more carrots on a stick.

Especially since sports arenas are not catalysts for thriving residential neighborhoods. Those carrots don't even look real. There are a few places where you can find a thriving residential neighborhood surrounding a major arena, but I can think of no example of one that thrives because of the stadium. I can only think of ones that thrive for a host of other reasons, despite the stadium -- like the one where I live near the Barclays Center in NY. If some day we see gallery openings and poetry slams in "Cass Park Village" like their promotional materials want us to imagine, they won't be there to cater to arena crowds.

http://www.districtdetroit.com/neigh...s-park-village

Of course the neighborhood is far from a good one in its present condition. It's fair to argue almost anything is better than what exists there today. Then again negligent property owners, speculators, and developers with ulterior motives have had a lot to do with how it got to that point.... And even so: Detroit is already coming back.

All said, I wish the "arena district" the best, for the city's sake. But no apology for being skeptical of the corny PR. The Ilitches have a long history with the city. It makes no sense to blithely ignore their past behavior. Rational people learn to withhold trust from those who have proven they don't deserve it. The Ilitches' behavior hasn't been all bad. It definitely hasn't been all good either.

In the end don't we participants on this forum just want what's best for Detroit?

Two points before I leave this thread:

1). Since you did introduce facts [[a good thing): I assume that we are talking a contribution from the city of 350M. 250M + 62M [[your figures) + [[say) 38M [[for the city to acquire properties for this development that the Ilitches did not have).

That is a good baseline against which to evaluate this huge project. So Ilitches may spend 1.2B over the next few years. Balance that against 350M the city puts up.

Compare what Detroit is getting for their $ compared to what other cities got [[or will get).

2). I am VERY familiar with sports facilities in D.C. Nationals Park, a new soccer stadium for D.C. United [[broke ground late last year), new Wizard practice facility/WNBA arena, etc. I follow them like I follow what is happening at Fisher/Woodward.

Comparing and contrasting those projects, I'd think the folks in D.C would be ENVIOUS of what Detroit is getting and what it is costing the city. [[D.C. and D.C. United are essentially splitting the costs 50 - 50 on a new soccer only stadium costing around 300M).

And Nationals Park and the basketball stuff for the Wizards/WNBA Mystics are a bad deal for the city. I don't believe the Lerner family contributed a dime to Nationals Park. They were close to 'greedy bastards' as they were not happy with the city after the city spent I believe 700M on that park [[I don't count roads, etc.). They nit picked it [[this wasn't finished on time, threatened to sue the city, etc.).

I honestly [[!!) believe Detroit is getting one of the best deals in sports facilities financing...

Nationals Park [[from Wikipedia): "to cost $611 million^[11] but eventually cost $693 million^[3] to build, with an additional $84.2 million spent on transportation, art, and infrastructure upgrades to support the stadium for a total cost of $783.9 million."

D.C. United's stadium [[300M split essentially 50 - 50):

http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/breaking_ground/2015/06/d-c-united-stadium-takes-a-key-step-forward.html

[jt1]

Two points before I leave this thread:

1). Since you did introduce facts [[a good thing): I assume that we are talking a contribution from the city of 350M. 250M + 62M [[your figures) + [[say) 38M [[for the city to acquire properties for this development that the Ilitches did not have).

That is a good baseline against which to evaluate this huge project. So Ilitches may spend 1.2B over the next few years. Balance that against 350M the city puts up.

Compare what Detroit is getting for their $ compared to what other cities got [[or will get).

2). I am VERY familiar with sports facilities in D.C. Nationals Park, a new soccer stadium for D.C. United [[broke ground late last year), new Wizard practice facility/WNBA arena, etc. I follow them like I follow what is happening at Fisher/Woodward.

Comparing and contrasting those projects, I'd think the folks in D.C would be ENVIOUS of what Detroit is getting and what it is costing the city. [[D.C. and D.C. United are essentially splitting the costs 50 - 50 on a new soccer only stadium costing around 300M).

And Nationals Park and the basketball stuff for the Wizards/WNBA Mystics are a bad deal for the city. I don't believe the Lerner family contributed a dime to Nationals Park. They were close to 'greedy bastards' as they were not happy with the city after the city spent I believe 700M on that park [[I don't count roads, etc.). They nit picked it [[this wasn't finished on time, threatened to sue the city, etc.).

I honestly [[!!) believe Detroit is getting one of the best deals in sports facilities financing...

Nationals Park [[from Wikipedia): "to cost $611 million^[11] but eventually cost $693 million^[3] to build, with an additional $84.2 million spent on transportation, art, and infrastructure upgrades to support the stadium for a total cost of $783.9 million."

D.C. United's stadium [[300M split essentially 50 - 50):

http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/breaking_ground/2015/06/d-c-united-stadium-takes-a-key-step-forward.html

Where do you come up with the Ilitchs spending $1.2B. They have claimed there will be $1.2 B spent in the district, not by them. Their expectation [[and they've said as much) is that they will find otehr developers and investors to participate in this district. They have made no firm commitment beyond the stadium and have made it clear that they total investment will be largely outside sources and parnters.

Be a shill for the guy if you want but now you're just making shit up. It's getting nauseating

Side note: I still am 100% convinced you are on the Olympia Holdings PR payroll. There's no other way to justify the lies, spin, ignorance of history, etc.

[jt1]

I'm also surprised the Madison Lennox hasn't been brought up. He was given a loan to tear it down and convert it into a 'landscaped parking lot.' The reason that was allowed was that after he bought it, he took out the windows to speed the demolition by neglect process until the city ruled it a nuisance.

During that time, he had offers from developers that did want the building and wanted to renovate however he refused to even entertain any. If the economic conditions didn't work for him they did work for others but he wanted his few spots so badly that he happily took out a 'loan' for 600K [[doubt it has been paid back) to give us a flat lot in the middle of the city.

What a great fucking ambassador for the city.

[Towne Cluber]

Lack of economic value doesn't stop your obligation from doing basic property maintenance. I wouldn't say there's been only been economic value in the last 5-6 years. There was a decent development wave downtown pre-recession Woodward Lofts, Merchants Row, Kales Bldg, Book-Cadillac etc. Other developers were able to make projects work in a more challenging environment than today. But Mike was on the sidelines from a development perspective during that time, his biggest property move was knocking down the Madison-Lenox Hotel in '04 for parking. One certainly wonders 'what if' he'd stepped off of that sideline.

The Book Cadillac IS NOT a good example from a business standpoint. It took an unprecedented amount of financing and subsidies -- and the people [[including pension funds) involved in it are losing their shirts on the deal.

Sure, they "made it work" in terms of getting it to happen...but it has not worked from a financial standpoint. With all that said, I'm extremely happy that the building was saved and that it is open for business. I wouldn't, however, support other deals being done this way.

[ABetterDetroit]

Two points before I leave this thread:

1). Since you did introduce facts [[a good thing): I assume that we are talking a contribution from the city of 350M. 250M + 62M [[your figures) + [[say) 38M [[for the city to acquire properties for this development that the Ilitches did not have).

That is a good baseline against which to evaluate this huge project. So Ilitches may spend 1.2B over the next few years. Balance that against 350M the city puts up.
l

Give us a break Steve if we don't believe that they will do anything beyond the absolute bare minimum. What 'You think they will do' is not good enough. The numbers are not based on any facts. The reality is that they only own 15 million of taxable real estate in the downtown including the new arena district.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...re-are-answers

15 mill in taxable property is pathetic when you look at the size of their holdings and the promises they have made. Gilbert pays almost double that on ONE building out of the 70+ that he owns.

https://makeloveland.com/us/mi/wayne...=neighborhoods

[emu steve]

Where do you come up with the Ilitchs spending $1.2B. They have claimed there will be $1.2 B spent in the district, not by them. Their expectation [[and they've said as much) is that they will find otehr developers and investors to participate in this district. They have made no firm commitment beyond the stadium and have made it clear that they total investment will be largely outside sources and parnters.

Be a shill for the guy if you want but now you're just making shit up. It's getting nauseating

Side note: I still am 100% convinced you are on the Olympia Holdings PR payroll. There's no other way to justify the lies, spin, ignorance of history, etc.

Louis A. says 627M for the arena and increasing. That doesn't include what all the work by Comerica, Fox, Ilitch School of Business, Hotel, Office, more parking decks, Eddystone, etc. etc.

Take 627M and add what 50 - 75M per office/hotel building, 25M for each parking deck, etc. etc. and one can easily add up to 1B and continuing to go north.

Like, we are only talking 400 - 500M on buildings other than the arena itself. That is not a high bar given how many buildings are to be built.

"More than $1 billion in investment has already been committed and more is coming, Olympia contends"

BTW, I'm only counting building on land owned/controlled by the Ilitches. E.g., if someone puts up a building west of Cass on land not owned by Ilitches I don't count that.

I do count the Ilitch school of business as it is Ilitch land and Ilitch $.

[jt1]

""More than $1 billion in investment has already been committed and more is coming, Olympia contends""

That means $1B in overall investment, not just the Ilitchs. Also, they are not the only ones that will be developing in 'their district.' The business school will be built by WSU with the Ilitch name on it due to a donation.

You seem to either intentionally ignore simple facts are if you can'[t get it then you never will.

[emu steve]

""More than $1 billion in investment has already been committed and more is coming, Olympia contends""

That means $1B in overall investment, not just the Ilitchs. Also, they are not the only ones that will be developing in 'their district.' The business school will be built by WSU with the Ilitch name on it due to a donation.

You seem to either intentionally ignore simple facts are if you can'[t get it then you never will.

Oh, my I'm sorry but I've never seen a more ridiculous statement than your last sentence about the business school.

It is Ilitch land and Ilitch money. WSU is spending someone else's money building on someone else's land.

Give me 40 - 50M I wouldn't puff my chest out like a peacock and said, "I built that."

I'd say, "[[the benefactor) built that..." I don't consider spending someone else's money a great achievement of mine.

[ABetterDetroit]

Oh, my I'm sorry but I've never seen a more ridiculous statement than your last sentence about the business school.

It is Ilitch land and Ilitch money. WSU is spending someone else's money building on someone else's land.

Give me 40 - 50M I wouldn't puff my chest out like a peacock and said, "I built that."

I'd say, "[[the benefactor) built that..." I don't consider spending someone else's money a great achievement of mine.

Alright Steve let's take a closer look and use some more Math again on the 40 mill generous gift to Wayne State. If someone has a net worth of 50k and gives $500 dollars to charity, [[1%) it is also generous. Equally so would be someone with a net worth of 1 million if they gave away $10,000 [[also 1%). For 10k someone might even be able to get a brick somewhere with there name on it. It will be a given that it won't be next door to your house so all your friends can see. Now in your Idol's case, his net worth is private [[rightly so) but most guesses between the Tigers and Wings plus the 3rd largest pizza restaurant company in the world put it somewhere between 3-6 billion. If we call it 4 billion, his donation is again 1% of his net worth. Unlike the great majority of us who do give to charity when you're a billionaire and give away 1% of your net the papers write articles about you. You can tell the benefactor where to spend it, get your name on the building... there are nice speeches about your generosity, a ribbon cutting ceremony, a black tie event, ect... In short a whole lot of publicity about your generosity as in this case.

It is right and just for the public at large to examine the record of any billionaire who wants this kind of publicity for their generosity. He could have given privately with no strings attached if he wanted privacy. If one chooses to do it publicly it is reasonable to expect a scrutiny of the entire legacy. Gifts do not erase history.

[Towne Cluber]

Alright Steve let's take a closer look and use some more Math again on the 40 mill generous gift to Wayne State. If someone has a net worth of 50k and gives $500 dollars to charity, [[1%) it is also generous. Equally so would be someone with a net worth of 1 million if they gave away $10,000 [[also 1%). For 10k someone might even be able to get a brick somewhere with there name on it. It will be a given that it won't be next door to your house so all your friends can see. Now in your Idol's case, his net worth is private [[rightly so) but most guesses between the Tigers and Wings plus the 3rd largest pizza restaurant company in the world put it somewhere between 3-6 billion. If we call it 4 billion, his donation is again 1% of his net worth. Unlike the great majority of us who do give to charity when you're a billionaire and give away 1% of your net the papers write articles about you. You can tell the benefactor where to spend it, get your name on the building... there are nice speeches about your generosity, a ribbon cutting ceremony, a black tie event, ect... In short a whole lot of publicity about your generosity as in this case.

It is right and just for the public at large to examine the record of any billionaire who wants this kind of publicity for their generosity. He could have given privately with no strings attached if he wanted privacy. If one chooses to do it publicly it is reasonable to expect a scrutiny of the entire legacy. Gifts do not erase history.

You speak of "wanting to examine an entire legacy", yet you act as if the WSU Ilitch Business School donation is the only charitable contribution he [[and his family) have ever made?

[Gistok]

I will grant him that it is a generous gift no matter how rich the family is..... as long as it gets built....

[ABetterDetroit]

I will grant him that it is a generous gift no matter how rich the family is..... as long as it gets built....

Yes, The upside of him being a no show as a developer. He desperately needs some kind of good PR for folks who are not still drinking deliriously from the Stanley Cups.

[Bham1982]

The Book Cadillac IS NOT a good example from a business standpoint. It took an unprecedented amount of financing and subsidies -- and the people [[including pension funds) involved in it are losing their shirts on the deal.

Sure, they "made it work" in terms of getting it to happen...but it has not worked from a financial standpoint. With all that said, I'm extremely happy that the building was saved and that it is open for business. I wouldn't, however, support other deals being done this way.

This is the distinction missed on DYes. We can renovate buildings all we want; it doesn't necessarily mean that economic conditions have turned.

The B-C is a beautiful building, wonderfully restored, and has been a big plus for downtown. But it's also an economic turkey that was only revived courtsey of the taxpayer. It made no financial sense back then and makes no sense now. Hotel rates are cheap and condos aren't marketable. A Motel 6 in top-tier urban markets gets higher nightly rates than the B-C.

Was it worth it? Probably. Downtown needed this project. But it was a hugely expensive venture, and cannot be justified in any sort of economic rationale.

Anything can be subsidized. I could build a Ritz Carlton supertall hotel-condo tower in Flint if you gave me enough subsidies. And I could keep the doors open indefinitely if the public incentives were sufficient. But that doesn't mean that I revitalized Flint; it means I'm a savvy businessperson who took advantage of public monies and deep public desire for regeneration.

Until things actually happen downtown absent subsidies, downtown hasn't fully turned a corner. There isn't yet market demand for building renovations or new construction.

[gencinjay]

So I was driving by the United Artists building this morning and saw a group of development type people about to go in. The fence gate was open, there was a guy in a hard hat opening the building door and a group of about 6 guys with folders and notepads waiting to enter. I almost took a picture but was late for my meeting.

[Bucket]

Update: construction has started.

[Scottathew]

Hahahahaha. How many times will you guys let Lucy pull the football away before you learn your lesson.

Possible means 'will not' in Ilitch speak

Look at all the progress on Little Ceasers HQ and all of the non-tax subsidized developments around the arena!

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

Until things actually happen downtown absent subsidies, downtown hasn't fully turned a corner. There isn't yet market demand for building renovations or new construction.

I agree wholeheartedly with the first sentence, partially with the second. I would say that, for example, many of DG's projects have not been subsisized [[although some have been). At this point, I think the subsidies, for the projects that have them, act in part as a self-confidence booster. They are training wheels, and I think we are nearing the point where they can be taken off the bike without the kid getting hurt. I would probably phase out tax credits for immediate downtown/midtown, and every year push the boundary a little further.

[emu steve]

Look at all the progress on Little Ceasers HQ and all of the non-tax subsidized developments around the arena!

Gee, are you a pol [[politician)?

The thread is celebrating the beginning of construction next to Comerica and you are complaining that construction has not started on another project...

Pols [[challengers) are great at trying to convince people that a cup which is mostly full is really mostly empty...

BTW, Victor Martinez is two HRs in two at bats. That is more than completely full...

[emu steve]

BTW, can't we assume now that the land transactions between St. Johns and the Ilitches has been completed?

This paves the way for both the parking garage AND the apartments.

I wonder if work on the apartments might begin AFTER the baseball season is over? Do they want to have two projects going on simultaneously eating up all of that parking?

For example, where is the church parking until the parking garage is completed????

[jkeets]

BTW, can't we assume now that the land transactions between St. Johns and the Ilitches has been completed?

This paves the way for both the parking garage AND the apartments.

I wonder if work on the apartments might begin AFTER the baseball season is over? Do they want to have two projects going on simultaneously eating up all of that parking?

For example, where is the church parking until the parking garage is completed????

The church has a small parking lot [[to the left of the new parking garage) still available.



I've heard from city officials that they've asked Olympia to wait until Woodward construction clears up a bit before starting the LC HQ and apartment projects. Parking is already a total mess with the new arena taking up all the spots west of Woodward. It's basically down to one lane north and south and just a turn lane from Adams to Grand.

As far as the other projects are concerned, I've heard the new hotel will be announced around May after the naming for the arena. It's supposed to be 12 stories and break ground at the same time as the Eddystone restoration, which is scheduled to be complete by 2018.

[emu steve]

The church has a small parking lot [[to the left of the new parking garage) still available.



I've heard from city officials that they've asked Olympia to wait until Woodward construction clears up a bit before starting the LC HQ and apartment projects. Parking is already a total mess with the new arena taking up all the spots west of Woodward. It's basically down to one lane north and south and just a turn lane from Adams to Grand.

As far as the other projects are concerned, I've heard the new hotel will be announced around May after the naming for the arena. It's supposed to be 12 stories and break ground at the same time as the Eddystone restoration, which is scheduled to be complete by 2018.

Excellent. THANK YOU.

[Atticus]

Here is a pic of the progress on the new garage, taken on 8/26/16. Still mostly foundation work, but you can obviously tell what the footprint of the new garage will be.

I also included a second pic of something being constructed on the east side of John R. Basically it is long and narrow, between John R and the small lot where all of the TV trucks park [[on the side with the existing Tiger's garage). Not sure what it will be.

[ndavies]

I believe the second pic is going to be An electrical substation.

[Atticus]

I believe the second pic is going to be An electrical substation.

That would make sense. Probably a good location for it.

[emu steve]

That would make sense. Probably a good location for it.

I remember the consternation as apparently there were trees at that location which had to come down for the substation.