New parking garage next to Comerica Park sought

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Also from the Detroit Life archives....


http://www.modeldmedia.com/inthenews/detlife9907.aspx

"it was just awarded $600,000 in clean-up tax credits by the Detroit Brownfield Redevelopment Authority."

I guess he took tax credits to clean it up and do nothing else?

[CrashDummy]

It's perfectly OK to be skeptical of certain projects, especially the grand ones being proposed by the Ilitches. There's some solid reasoning for it. But some people just go totally over the top with the drama anytime Ilitch is brought up. It was kind of funny at first, but it gets to be a little much. Talk of all the "broken promises" gives me visions of a wagon train of Native Americans slowly walking away from Foxtown with a single tear running down their face as they look up at you. What exactly constitutes a promise and at what point is it broken? Is it a brief article from ten years ago about some vague planned renovation of a vacant building? Is it another article from twenty years ago about some Columbia street project? If the Detroit Life Building were renovated tomorrow, would it then be OK? What about when the Little Caesar's headquarters gets built, which would pretty much complete Columbia street minus the Hard Rock Café?

What if it were someone else, would they be promise breakers, too? In 2007, Dan Gilbert announced that he would construct a new headquarters downtown by 2012. He got the rights to develop one of three plots. It's 2016, as someone pointed out, and nothing has been built, or even started. Broken promises? Also in 2007, the Roxbury Group announced it would build apartments on top of the Book Cadillac garage. Construction didn't begin until this year. So which is it: Were things actually different financially back then, or were they just being assholes like the Ilitches?

[MSUguy]

An excellent re-cap of the development fails of Olympia Development. The next non-arena/stadium related development by this organization [[which owns dozens of CBD buildings) will be the first in 30 years.

Inexplicably, I'm still optimistic about the District Detroit and everything that Olympia Development has promised. They are not really promises in the legally binding sense though are they.

Indeed this is the only reason that I'm somewhat optimistic unlike with Comerica Park, he is actually contractually obligated develop around the arena. Absent that his track record pretty much speaks for itself

[gumby]

What if it were someone else, would they be promise breakers, too? In 2007, Dan Gilbert announced that he would construct a new headquarters downtown by 2012. He got the rights to develop one of three plots. It's 2016, as someone pointed out, and nothing has been built, or even started. Broken promises?

Well in this instance the Compuware Building came mostly available and it didn't make sense to build new at the time. And lets face facts Gilbert has more often than not followed through on what he has announced so I am sorry if he gets a little more leeway than Ilitch who has not.

[emu steve]

It is sad, very sad, morbidly sad that every thread regarding something the Ilitches want to do reverts to going back in the past.

Lest I be wrong, the subject of this thread is something the Ilitches REALLY want to build. Not controversial. It lays the foundation for apartments on Woodwards which folks want [[a streetwall).

What's there to debate???

Now I know why Washington is broke, the Middle East is broken, planet earth is broken...

Something as simple as a non-controversial project which I believe we ALL favor reverts to a re-hash of history and rancor.

Good luck negotiating peace in the Middle East.

Sad. Very sad...

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

emu steve, it is very easy to point out all the ways everyone else is failing to fix Detroit. The Chutzpah Mike Ilitch has! Running his own business the way he wants to! And making profits! It's enough to make one want to heave!

Reminds me of The Music Man. The townfolk are still angry at the deceased Ol' Miser Madison. Says Harold Hill: "Madison Library? Madison Park? Madison Gymnasium? That Miser Madison?"

[gumby]

emu steve, it is very easy to point out all the ways everyone else is failing to fix Detroit. The Chutzpah Mike Ilitch has! Running his own business the way he wants to! And making profits! It's enough to make one want to heave!

Reminds me of The Music Man. The townfolk are still angry at the deceased Ol' Miser Madison. Says Harold Hill: "Madison Library? Madison Park? Madison Gymnasium? That Miser Madison?"

Well when you are benefiting from millions of dollars of corporate welfare you are going to be held to a certain level of scrutiny. Sorry if this offends those of you who are bowing before these billionaires.

[emu steve]

Well when you are benefiting from millions of dollars of corporate welfare you are going to be held to a certain level of scrutiny. Sorry if this offends those of you who are bowing before these billionaires.

Ilitches are getting 'pennies on the dollars' for their corporate welfare.

Just look at other cities. D.C. paid 100 cents on the dollar for Nationals Park. D.C. is now paying 92 cents on the dollar for a new practice facility for the Wizards/home for the WNBA team.

For every dollar Ilitches are getting through the city, I believe they will spend say 3 or 4 of their own on these projects.

I'm not aware, off the top of my head, of any sports owner who will be doing as much with a sports facility project as Ilitches are doing with their arena project.

Detroit is getting off very easy compared to other cities...

My guess I should spend more time listening to folks like the mayor, Gilbert, Penske, etc. who have impeccable understandings of all of this stuff...

[michmina]

It is sad, very sad, morbidly sad that every thread regarding something the Ilitches want to do reverts to going back in the past.

Lest I be wrong, the subject of this thread is something the Ilitches REALLY want to build. Not controversial. It lays the foundation for apartments on Woodwards which folks want [[a streetwall).

What's there to debate???

Now I know why Washington is broke, the Middle East is broken, planet earth is broken...

Something as simple as a non-controversial project which I believe we ALL favor reverts to a re-hash of history and rancor.

Good luck negotiating peace in the Middle East.

Sad. Very sad...

You know who I didn't and do not question when it comes to stadiums and such? William Davidson and now TOM GORES, who isn't begging for help every time I turn around and who still manages to keep an up-to-date and comfortable place to watch his team play...unlike a certain family who was happy to have people watch his hockey team in a dank dump of an arena while he systematically browbeat everyone he could to get his way once again.

[MSUguy]

emu steve, it is very easy to point out all the ways everyone else is failing to fix Detroit. The Chutzpah Mike Ilitch has! Running his own business the way he wants to! And making profits! It's enough to make one want to heave!

Reminds me of The Music Man. The townfolk are still angry at the deceased Ol' Miser Madison. Says Harold Hill: "Madison Library? Madison Park? Madison Gymnasium? That Miser Madison?"

By the way he wants to do mean leaving his properties around the Fox vacant and open to trespass for years. Is that the businesses acumen that you're praising? Let me guess me guess you think Matty Moroun is stand up guy too
Now maybe Mike is on a new path, they have certainly committed to lot and would look bad not to deliver some it. But that doesn't change the fact for the last 30 years they been generally poor stewards of their properties other than the Fox and are deserving of the skepticism

[southen]

It is sad, very sad, morbidly sad that every thread regarding something the Ilitches want to do reverts to going back in the past.

Lest I be wrong, the subject of this thread is something the Ilitches REALLY want to build. Not controversial. It lays the foundation for apartments on Woodwards which folks want [[a streetwall).

What's there to debate???

Now I know why Washington is broke, the Middle East is broken, planet earth is broken...

Something as simple as a non-controversial project which I believe we ALL favor reverts to a re-hash of history and rancor.

Good luck negotiating peace in the Middle East.

Sad. Very sad...

Is this a real response?!?! The debate often turns to Illitch not just because of his record, but because you can't help but praise every little thing the guy does. Yes, lets celebrate him building a garage, meanwhile we await any meaningful renderings of any other ancillary development. Past renderings of the apartment complex he wants to build actually include the Statler Hotel which was demolished in 2006. Illitch building/demolishing to extend his parking empire is nothing new here, so i apologize if I don't find this to be earth shattering.

People constantly making excuses for billionaires who live off the public is sad. very sad...

[mikeg19]

You know who I didn't and do not question when it comes to stadiums and such? William Davidson and now TOM GORES, who isn't begging for help every time I turn around and who still manages to keep an up-to-date and comfortable place to watch his team play...unlike a certain family who was happy to have people watch his hockey team in a dank dump of an arena while he systematically browbeat everyone he could to get his way once again.

You can't compare those two arenas. Palace is a decade younger than JLA. When JLA was built, it was at the very end of that type of arena design before newer concepts started getting built. It was basically obsolete when the hit the ground with shovels. The Palace had a major advantage in advanced technology and construction practices that allowed for a larger, more comfortable arena that weren't available/financially suitable in the late 70's when JLA was constructed.

The Palace, on the other hand, has been used as a model for other arenas in North America. Had Davidson not kept investing money into the Palace, it'd be getting to where JLA is now. And you better bet your ass, that if/when Gores decides to move/build a new arena [[assuming he's still the owner at that time) he will be asking for a handout just like everyone else is. The Palace cost I think $100M to build, give or take. That amount of money could easily be privately financed, even at that time. With stadiums now costing close to a billion dollars, I highly doubt many, if any, are privately financed 100% or close to it.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

But that doesn't change the fact for the last 30 years they been generally poor stewards of their properties other than the Fox and are deserving of the skepticism

For the last 30 years [[until the last 5 or 6) there was no economic value in a great deal of downtown's lots and buildings. New construction and/or renovation would not have been justified by the rents that could have been charged. Do you know how I know that? In 2009 I turned down an offer of free rent for 5 years to open a bar at a prominent intersection downtown [[other factors, not related to free rent, caused it to be turned down; the space is now occupied, but was never a bar or restaurant). As for Matty, unlike Mike Ilitch I don't think he's an asset to the city.

[southen]

For the last 30 years [[until the last 5 or 6) there was no economic value in a great deal of downtown's lots and buildings. New construction and/or renovation would not have been justified by the rents that could have been charged. Do you know how I know that? In 2009 I turned down an offer of free rent for 5 years to open a bar at a prominent intersection downtown [[other factors, not related to free rent, caused it to be turned down; the space is now occupied, but was never a bar or restaurant). As for Matty, unlike Mike Ilitch I don't think he's an asset to the city.

What changed that? A billionaire amassing properties and investing in them, not letting them rot. Illitch could have been a catalyst like Gilbert has been but he chose the route of slumlord.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

DG's whole operation is not similar to Mike Ilitch's, but it's not as if one side is good and one is bad. DG [[like Ilitch a few decades ago) moved his own people downtown. Because his enterprise consists of tech and real estate divisions, he was able to start a sort of start-up incubator in small, renovation-friendly buildings downtown. Mike Ilitch wouldn't exactly be able to replicate by building lots of Little Caesar's franchises and dozens of sports arenas downtown. I might also add the DG has been very complimentary about the Ilitches being sort of a "first wave" of downtown renovators. Mike Ilitch's buying of much property downtown when it was dirt cheap is allowing the whole mega-project now underway to happen. If he had to acquire the land at today's prices, there is no Detroit billionaire who would have been willing to lose the billions necessary to build the arena, apartments, offices and hotels we will be seeing coming online in the next 2 years.

[southen]

Dan Gilbert didn't really have a real estate arm until he decided to invest. He started many of his ventures as he began acquiring property. What stopped Illitch from redeveloping his properties for office or residential? Hell, what stopped him for attempting to even mothball the structures?

DG is complimentary of Mike because he has future business with him downtown. You aren't going to rip the guy publicly if you want to potentially redevelop things in proximity to one another.

What other excuses does Mike have for letting things rot and illegally demolishing other buildings? It doesn't take 30 years of neglect to potentially build a new arena, that is the bs line that the Illitch organization came out with after announcing the arena. Think of the good that could have happened had Mike taken care of his structures or redeveloped them instead of let entire swaths of downtown rot and become a sea of surface parking.

He has had the means for positive change for years, but waited until someone else came in and did the lion's share and waited for a pretty sweet deal with tax incentives.

[MSUguy]

For the last 30 years [[until the last 5 or 6) there was no economic value in a great deal of downtown's lots and buildings. New construction and/or renovation would not have been justified by the rents that could have been charged. Do you know how I know that? In 2009 I turned down an offer of free rent for 5 years to open a bar at a prominent intersection downtown [[other factors, not related to free rent, caused it to be turned down; the space is now occupied, but was never a bar or restaurant). As for Matty, unlike Mike Ilitch I don't think he's an asset to the city.

Lack of economic value doesn't stop your obligation from doing basic property maintenance. I wouldn't say there's been only been economic value in the last 5-6 years. There was a decent development wave downtown pre-recession Woodward Lofts, Merchants Row, Kales Bldg, Book-Cadillac etc. Other developers were able to make projects work in a more challenging environment than today. But Mike was on the sidelines from a development perspective during that time, his biggest property move was knocking down the Madison-Lenox Hotel in '04 for parking. One certainly wonders 'what if' he'd stepped off of that sideline.

[MikeyinBrooklyn]

You all make so productive sense when discussing Mike Ilitch. I've been converted. The state should use eminent domain to expand I-75 in downtown to 27 lanes to take over the arena site. The county should repurpose Comerica Park as Fail Jail, Part II. And the Fox Theatre should be turned into the world's largest Pizza Hut [[I think the auditorium is hot and ready for that!). Down with our evil corporate overlords! Lastly, Mike Ilitch & his secret gay lover Matty Moroun should be marched to the center of the Ambassador Bridge, which would then be blown up! No justice, No pizza!

[southen]

You all make so productive sense when discussing Mike Ilitch. I've been converted. The state should use eminent domain to expand I-75 in downtown to 27 lanes to take over the arena site. The county should repurpose Comerica Park as Fail Jail, Part II. And the Fox Theatre should be turned into the world's largest Pizza Hut [[I think the auditorium is hot and ready for that!). Down with our evil corporate overlords! Lastly, Mike Ilitch & his secret gay lover Matty Moroun should be marched to the center of the Ambassador Bridge, which would then be blown up! No justice, No pizza!

When you can't make a sensible argument for the man's track record I guess this is your response. You can be a capitalist and take care of your properties at the same time...

[gumby]

You all make so productive sense when discussing Mike Ilitch. I've been converted. The state should use eminent domain to expand I-75 in downtown to 27 lanes to take over the arena site. The county should repurpose Comerica Park as Fail Jail, Part II. And the Fox Theatre should be turned into the world's largest Pizza Hut [[I think the auditorium is hot and ready for that!). Down with our evil corporate overlords! Lastly, Mike Ilitch & his secret gay lover Matty Moroun should be marched to the center of the Ambassador Bridge, which would then be blown up! No justice, No pizza!

Way to completely miss the point.

[ABetterDetroit]

Ilitches are getting 'pennies on the dollars' for their corporate welfare.

For every dollar Ilitches are getting through the city, I believe they will spend say 3 or 4 of their own on these projects.

$250,000,000 and all city owned properties involved turned over for their private use for the price of $1 is not even remotely close to "pennies on the dollars". It's just math, its really not that complicated.

[emu steve]

$250,000,000 and all city owned properties involved turned over for their private use for the price of $1 is not even remotely close to "pennies on the dollars". It's just math, its really not that complicated.

There were graphic images in the main arena thread about who owned which parcels.

I'd guess [[recollection) 1/2 were owned by the Ilitches and 1/2 the city.

So will you 'up me' 50M [[tops) for the 'land gift' so maybe 300M?

I should haven't used the term 'pennies of the dollar' but maybe 'dimes on the dollars'.

My ballpark is that the city has 300M of skin in the game. The Ilitches will end up with say 700M - 1B skin in the game.

Conservatively, the city puts up 3 dimes and the Ilitches puts up 2 case quarters + 2 dimes.

The entire development to be done by the Ilitches is [[h)uge.

[Gistok]

I don't buy any of the excuses for Ilitch not coming thru on his promises. Sometimes the Ilitch's should have just stayed quiet rather than announce things such as the Columbia St. Mall, the Life Building or many others of that family's shattered dreams and broken promises.

They even promised to fix up and find a new reuse for the GAR Building... but after about a year and nothing but sitting on the property, at least the city had the balls to take it back... and now 3 guys with probably less than 1/100th the worth of the Ilitch's has made their procrastination seem rather humiliating.... by fixing it up and actually restoring something....

http://www.wxyz.com/news/region/detr...ding-continues

So all of those why-he-has-done-nothing excuses are just that... excuses....

[bust]

To help keep the facts straight, here are some details on the arena funding:

It's financed by $450M in bonds. Olympia will pay back $200M. Detroit's Downtown Development Authority, run by the Detroit Economic Growth Corp, will pay back the remaining $250M. The DDA is supported by a property tax levied within its district.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...re-are-answers

If Olympia invests or "causes to invest" at least $200M around the arena within 5 years after it opens, the DDA will credit Olympia an additional $62M.

http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/olympia-arena-promises-additional-development/Content?oid=21441'
Total funding for Olympia: $250M, up to $312M [[from DDA property taxes).
That doesn't include the value of any donated city-owned properties.

And those are just some of the facts. I don't have the information to understand all the complexities of the deal, like the ownership and lease arrangements of the various properties involved, the cost of the various necessary infrastructure to suport them, and what the breakdown is for who pays for that. Nor do I understand the broader economic considerations when funding comes from CBD property taxes, via the DDA.... Finance is not my area.

I'm pretty sure this is a great deal for the Ilitches. It's beyond me to assess whether it's a good deal for the city too.

My complaint about the Ilitches is focused on their long history of neglecting to maintain, leaving to rot, or tearing down so many of the properties they own. Their abandoned buildings and large swaths of parking lots are eyesores that weigh heavy on the CBD. Many are [[or were) handsome structures that if rehabilitated and put back into service would provide a strong uplifting force to the local economy. It irks me that when they campaign for city assisstance they've so often heralded the great benefits their projects will bring, then failed to follow through. When today they try to entice us to believe their arena will inspire a thriving residential neighborhood to crop up around it -- it looks to me like more carrots on a stick.

Especially since sports arenas are not catalysts for thriving residential neighborhoods. Those carrots don't even look real. There are a few places where you can find a thriving residential neighborhood surrounding a major arena, but I can think of no example of one that thrives because of the stadium. I can only think of ones that thrive for a host of other reasons, despite the stadium -- like the one where I live near the Barclays Center in NY. If some day we see gallery openings and poetry slams in "Cass Park Village" like their promotional materials want us to imagine, they won't be there to cater to arena crowds.

http://www.districtdetroit.com/neigh...s-park-village

Of course the neighborhood is far from a good one in its present condition. It's fair to argue almost anything is better than what exists there today. Then again negligent property owners, speculators, and developers with ulterior motives have had a lot to do with how it got to that point.... And even so: Detroit is already coming back.

All said, I wish the "arena district" the best, for the city's sake. But no apology for being skeptical of the corny PR. The Ilitches have a long history with the city. It makes no sense to blithely ignore their past behavior. Rational people learn to withhold trust from those who have proven they don't deserve it. The Ilitches' behavior hasn't been all bad. It definitely hasn't been all good either.

In the end don't we participants on this forum just want what's best for Detroit?

[mikeg19]

Sometimes the Ilitch's should have just stayed quiet rather than announce things such as the Columbia St. Mall, the Life Building or many others of that family's shattered dreams and broken promises.

That statement right there is a huge reason for so much hate toward Illitch. Yes, it's bad enough leaving people in limbo, but making false proclamations about redevelopment is 10 times worse IMO. Nothing pisses people off more than telling them something will happen then absolutely nothing does.