Sick out War! Detroit Public Schools vs Detroit Federation of Teachers.

[Scottathew]

I don't think that a sickout earns you any friends.

Now there's a debatable topic [[as opposed to just blaming the teachers for everything and telling them to quit)! I don't have ill will toward the sick-out teachers, but at the same time, I don't know if I would participate in one.

[downtownguy]

CAY's approach of allowing the white infrstructure to decay because it was racist was a bad policy.

huh?.......

[Wesley Mouch]

Maybe some of them are, but their popularity in Detroit was/is one of the driving forces behind the breakdown of DPS. IMO without the charters public education in the city would be in much better condition overall than it is today. The charters and School of Choice stripped DPS of many of it's best students and their per pupil funding. This left DPS to not only deal with the most challenging students, but reduced funding from a smaller student body and at the same time debt and other legacy costs from the past.

Do you really think the problem is lack of money? I can't get my head around that. I don't see any evidence that money is lacking. I'm sure more money would be helpful -- but I just don't believe everything was fine until Choice and Charters arrived.

Michigan K-12 average per pupil: $9,568
Detroit City Schools: $13,211
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/...nding_det.html

So over 30% more money doesn't work. How much more per pupil do you think is necessary to get results? Certainly DPS has more legacy expenses, and more difficult students, but 30% more ought to deal with that. What does it take? 50%, 80%, 100% more?

I would far rather see a great DPS, but it appears to be elusive. Why is it bad to let EMU or WSU or UM try and see what they can do?

[Scottathew]

What about breaking DPS up into 3-4 smaller school districts? It might help to make things more manageable and visible.

Economies of scale seems to not be working well for them.

[Wesley Mouch]

CAY's approach of allowing the white infrstructure to decay because it was racist was a bad policy.

huh?.......

Sorry, got a little carried away there. If you don't agree with this, you probably didn't live through all of CAY's reign.

CAY was a fine man, and an excellent leader in many ways. He left us an integrated Police force that while challenged certainly hasn't been an occupying army [[see Ferguson or LA for example). Although controversial, moves like calling GM's bluff on Poletown plant were brilliant -- and are delivering great jobs and taxes within the City.

What CAY got wrong was the antagonism towards much of White Detroit. Max Fisher and a few others aside, Young didn't just ignore the existing white power structure -- he chased it away. The best example to me was Hudsons. They wanted to stay. CAY basically told them that if they left, he'd 'find a black entrepreneur to take over the store [[see Barden Cable and the joy they brought to Detroit for an example of CAY's approach to White corporate America.

Much of White Detroit needed a kick in the ass.... but Young on this topic went too far, and didn't help struggling existing businesses [[read White) -- and tossed aside competent leaders and staff in favor of his [[Black) cronies. Sure -- some of that was badly needed. He just went too far.

What does this have to do with DPS and Sick Out -- well not much. But I think we can certainly agree that CAY isn't remembered for restructuring DPS.

Imagine that CAY put the same energy into DPS that he put into making sure Don Barden got the cable contract for Detroit. He didn't run the DPS -- but with his power at that time he could have done great things for education. He didn't -- and we are living with the results.

End rant.

[michmina]

What about breaking DPS up into 3-4 smaller school districts? It might help to make things more manageable and visible.

Economies of scale seems to not be working well for them.

As BankruptcyGuy pointed out, Detroit loves its administration....if they did it in typical Detroit fashion, there would be 3 top-heavy administrative entities with layer upon layer of paper-pushers created to rule over each. Ugh.

The waste occurs in the management of the school system. I think the teachers and principals do the best they can on a shoestring and some duct tape. The administration needs to be overhauled yet again and then someone needs to keep an eye on the admin to make sure it doesn't become bloated again.

[GPCharles]

Like selling the old DPS HQ building on Woodward near the DIA and then buying an office condo in the Fisher Building? Can someone take a look at the economics on those two transactions?

[Danny]

CAY's approach of allowing the white infrstructure to decay because it was racist was a bad policy.


Yeah go ahead, blame black people for running Detroit to the ground.

Blame white folks from fleeing Detroit just because they don't to live near black people.

Blame the unions for their socialist ideal to to earn something in life.

Blame rich people for not contributing to the poor and middle class.

Blame the Detroit Federation of Teachers for their demands for better schools.

Blame those Detroit Public School Board members for not handing the educational issues.

Blame those [[Romans) in Lansing, especially Gov. Synder [[Caligula) are creating separating DPS to EAA into a revolving door mess. Detroit kids graduating to no future, but to become career criminals.

Blame the parents for not teaching their children responsibility and survival skills.

The whole system in "Mich-ississppi" is a mess. And we point blaming fingers at each other. It's a Mad Max world out there.

[313WX]

huh?.......

Crazy how a guy that's been dead for nearly 20 years popped up into this discussion, ain't it?

[Ray1936]

Crazy how a guy that's been dead for nearly 20 years popped up into this discussion, ain't it?

Coleman DIED? Nobody tells me anything any more.

[Baselinepunk]

I stand with the Union and upset rank and file.

These teachers have been through too much; I drew the line when they gave DPS a loan -- that was just fucking crazy think, right there.

As part DPS product meself, DPS has been in trouble for a very, very long time and the State take over made it worse. DPS was eventually pummeled when the Republipukes jammed the EM law through and removed the "F" from the EM.

You reap what you sow.

If Engler didn't take away the ability for teachers to strike, we wouldn't be here right now.

Let's remember: the EAA took the money from the last bond issue.

That outta be fun looking into.

[Király]

Currently in Greece there are public schools with no teachers at all. After working for up to a year with no paychecks, they got fed up and quit when it became obvious the system was broke and they wouldn't be getting paid at all. Now the school custodians supervise the kids while they watch TV all day long.

Wake up call.

[Baselinepunk]

Wow.

While I'm not really surprised; the Republipuke apologists that freq this message board sure are SILENT NIGHT on this topic now.

Pretty fun bashing Libtards while Flint's poisoned.

Hope y'all have a great sleep tonight.

Children and parents in Flint "won't".

[archfan]

Do you really think the problem is lack of money? I can't get my head around that. I don't see any evidence that money is lacking. I'm sure more money would be helpful -- but I just don't believe everything was fine until Choice and Charters arrived.

Michigan K-12 average per pupil: $9,568
Detroit City Schools: $13,211
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/...nding_det.html

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ents/78240726/
Debt service per pupil amounts to $3000 per pupil. While other districts have debt, it's nothing like DPS'. I imagine removing the debt payment brings DPS closer to the average.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/...nding_det.html
Administration costs for DPS were 15%. For comparison, Birmingham spent 11%, Troy and Plymouth Canton spent 9%. Reducing administrative costs to 9% would free up about $750 per pupil.

Finally, one option open to school districts is to raise a local millage to pay for capital improvements - essentially taking on any debt service locally, rather than deducting it from operating [[e.g. per pupil) budget. Since the millage is collected in local property taxes, that probably wouldn't be very effective in Detroit.

[BankruptcyGuy]

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...ents/78240726/
Debt service per pupil amounts to $3000 per pupil. While other districts have debt, it's nothing like DPS'. I imagine removing the debt payment brings DPS closer to the average.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/...nding_det.html
Administration costs for DPS were 15%. For comparison, Birmingham spent 11%, Troy and Plymouth Canton spent 9%. Reducing administrative costs to 9% would free up about $750 per pupil.

Finally, one option open to school districts is to raise a local millage to pay for capital improvements - essentially taking on any debt service locally, rather than deducting it from operating [[e.g. per pupil) budget. Since the millage is collected in local property taxes, that probably wouldn't be very effective in Detroit.

#1 is correct, although DPS still spends $14.4K/pupil, so it's still above average.
#2 is also correct, and that percentage has been growing as pupil count decreases. They have not cut administration to match.

I heard this morning that DPS has 100 school buildings, for 49,000 students. My local district has 10 school buildings for 7,000 students. We average 700/building, they average 490. It would seem that they could shut down a bunch of school buildings and save a ton of money.

Also, the pupil-teacher ratio is high, but it's not the highest in Wayne County. Again, if you consolidate buildings, you can improve those ratios with split classes.

It's my understanding that the state is on the hook for the debt since the EM was in place, because those bonds were issued with a state guarantee [[for lower rates).

The interesting question, in my mind, is what structural change will the legislature require for $700 million in funding. Remains to be seen.

[Shai_Hulud]

I heard this morning that DPS has 100 school buildings, for 49,000 students. My local district has 10 school buildings for 7,000 students. We average 700/building, they average 490. It would seem that they could shut down a bunch of school buildings and save a ton of money.

I don't know if there's a consensus on how well school closings address the issues at DPS, but it seems the answer is not very well. It obviously has not dug them out of the financial hole.

In addition to the huge number of schools, most of the schools are built to hold huge numbers of students. Even if you close one and send all the students to the next closest school, that one is still under utilized.

Every time they close a school, they lose students. Because the cities population is so sparse, a lot of the students now have long commutes to school, which is a problem for parents considering weather and safety. Then there is the issue of closing Kettering and Finney, and then sending those students to Pershing, Osborn and Denby. Recipe for disaster.

Then there was the millions they spent on renovations for buildings that were then closed or turned over to the EAA.

[GPCharles]

Perhaps the sickouts did accomplish something.

Detroit News - Duggan unveils plan to inspect all DPS schools.
"The city late Wednesday announced it has launched a citywide inspection of all Detroit Public School buildings in response to complaints by teachers about health and safety problems.
The inspections, which began Tuesday at Spain Elementary Middle School, will be completed by the end of January in the 20 DPS school buildings believed to be most problematic, and all 97 of the district’s school buildings by the end of April.
Charter schools will be inspected as well, Mayor Mike Duggan’s office says.
The call for inspections came a day after Duggan toured several DPS schools with city officials in the wake of sickouts by teachers who have complained about building conditions, among other issues."

[jiminnm]

[/I][/COLOR]
What does this have to do with DPS and Sick Out -- well not much. But I think we can certainly agree that CAY isn't remembered for restructuring DPS.

Imagine that CAY put the same energy into DPS that he put into making sure Don Barden got the cable contract for Detroit. He didn't run the DPS -- but with his power at that time he could have done great things for education. He didn't -- and we are living with the results.

End rant.

That's a fair assessment. I remember his statement in a one school board election of 30-35 years ago. The school board was no better then than now. When asked by a reporter why he was supporting reelection of the existing board members, Young replied "we know they're rascals, but they're our rascals."

[BankruptcyGuy]

Perhaps the sickouts did accomplish something.

Detroit News - Duggan unveils plan to inspect all DPS schools.
"The city late Wednesday announced it has launched a citywide inspection of all Detroit Public School buildings in response to complaints by teachers about health and safety problems.
The inspections, which began Tuesday at Spain Elementary Middle School, will be completed by the end of January in the 20 DPS school buildings believed to be most problematic, and all 97 of the district’s school buildings by the end of April.
Charter schools will be inspected as well, Mayor Mike Duggan’s office says.
The call for inspections came a day after Duggan toured several DPS schools with city officials in the wake of sickouts by teachers who have complained about building conditions, among other issues."

Not sure why no media outlet reported that schools are exempt from all City ordinances of any sort. This is all for show.

[BankruptcyGuy]

I don't know if there's a consensus on how well school closings address the issues at DPS, but it seems the answer is not very well. It obviously has not dug them out of the financial hole.

In addition to the huge number of schools, most of the schools are built to hold huge numbers of students. Even if you close one and send all the students to the next closest school, that one is still under utilized.

Every time they close a school, they lose students. Because the cities population is so sparse, a lot of the students now have long commutes to school, which is a problem for parents considering weather and safety. Then there is the issue of closing Kettering and Finney, and then sending those students to Pershing, Osborn and Denby. Recipe for disaster.

Then there was the millions they spent on renovations for buildings that were then closed or turned over to the EAA.

What would be interesting analysis would be to figure out the ratio of students to square miles. 46,000 students [[I guess the number is down again) divided by 138 square miles is 333 kids per square mile.

My local district is 7,000 over 24.75 square miles, or 282 kids per square mile.

Is DPS run like a tightly-packed urban district, when the population is similar in density to an urban one? Don't know, just guessing.

[Baselinepunk]

So -- let me get this straight.

State intervened by JenniEnger in DPS for academic reasons. And had a surplus budget [[EFM)

EFM cites book keeping "irregularities"; adjusts the books. Bond issue.

SnyCo gets elected, screw voters and jams EM law. [[EM) DPS has EM. DPS now has a _Budget Deficit_

SnyCo creates EAA. DPS Budget Deficit grows.

After many, many years of State "intervention" [[Big Gubmint), DPS is on the verge of bankruptcy.

State of Michigan is on the hook for 1.5B in liabilities for DPS. State of Michigan "rolls up their sleeves and goes balls deep".

Really?? Have we been that fucking stupid to allow this to happen?

We gave up Democracy because the Republicans said it would save us from educational ruin.

It didn't work.

We gave up Democracy because the Republicans said it would save us from infrastructure ruin.

It didn't work.

We gave up Democracy because the Republicans said it would save us from Big Government ruin.

It didn't work.

People have to wake the fuck up around here.

They have used Government to ruin us.

These Folks HATE government.

The Folks in charge do no like anyone who isn't like them.

And they have made it so with all of the so-called reforms. The Folks in charge have taken advantage of our good will.

The Folks in charge capitalized on our apathy.

The Folks in charge have leveraged our cultural heritage against us and our children.

The Folks in charge have used our Courts against us.

The Folks in charge feel justified in their actions because they hate us so much that they will burn the State to the ground in order to get rid of people like you and I.



Fuck Michigan Republicans.



Just saw on the tube the SnyCo is now the new HillBernie whip boy.

I wish them good hunting and a bountiful harvest.


"You! You can run, but you can't hide!", Wez, The Road Warrior

[Honky Tonk]

So -- let me get this straight.

State intervened by JenniEnger in DPS for academic reasons. And had a surplus budget [[EFM)

EFM cites book keeping "irregularities"; adjusts the books. Bond issue.

SnyCo gets elected, screw voters and jams EM law. [[EM) DPS has EM. DPS now has a _Budget Deficit_

SnyCo creates EAA. DPS Budget Deficit grows.

After many, many years of State "intervention" [[Big Gubmint), DPS is on the verge of bankruptcy.

State of Michigan is on the hook for 1.5B in liabilities for DPS. State of Michigan "rolls up their sleeves and goes balls deep".

Really?? Have we been that fucking stupid to allow this to happen?

We gave up Democracy because the Republicans said it would save us from educational ruin.

It didn't work.

We gave up Democracy because the Republicans said it would save us from infrastructure ruin.

It didn't work.

We gave up Democracy because the Republicans said it would save us from Big Government ruin.

It didn't work.

People have to wake the fuck up around here.

They have used Government to ruin us.

These Folks HATE government.

The Folks in charge do no like anyone who isn't like them.

And they have made it so with all of the so-called reforms. The Folks in charge have taken advantage of our good will.

The Folks in charge capitalized on our apathy.

The Folks in charge have leveraged our cultural heritage against us and our children.

The Folks in charge have used our Courts against us.

The Folks in charge feel justified in their actions because they hate us so much that they will burn the State to the ground in order to get rid of people like you and I.



Fuck Michigan Republicans.



Just saw on the tube the SnyCo is now the new HillBernie whip boy.

I wish them good hunting and a bountiful harvest.


"You! You can run, but you can't hide!", Wez, The Road Warrior

I think you're the one that needs to "wake the fuck up". The reason the State, Democratic or Republican intervened in DPS is because it had degenerated into a cesspool. The DPS Administration then, and continues to today, skimming money off of the top. More is spent @ DPS per child then anywhere else in MI and most of the kids can't read, and have no prospects for a future, other then becoming wards of the State. The State, both Democratic and Republican, failed miserably turning it around, but it was a runaway train way before the State ever got involved. Your continued posts about Snyder riding in with tanks, much like Rommel, and squashing happy lil' chilen' playing in the sunshine, are just plain bullshit.

[sirrealone]

In situations like this, it's always so disheartening to see the focus on assigning blame rather than fixing the problem. Look at the post a couple above, line after line of just flinging blame around like it's just that simple.. Does nothing to actually address the need or the way to fix the problem, it just spends line after line assigning blame.

I've got two news flashes for people who just want to play the blame game.

First, every minute wasted on trying to figure out who's to blame is a minute wasted in being able to fix the problem. When you have a crisis on your hands, you fix the problem, then you go back and do a root cause analysis. Instead, people here would rather let the students and teachers continue to suffer so that we can definitively point out just whose fault it is.

Which leads me to....

Second, if you think this can be piegeonholed into one group of people being held responsible for this, that's absurd. Was it just Republicans that caused this? No. Was it just Democrats? No. Was it just people in the last 5 years or just people in a period before that? No, no, no, and NO! If there's anyone that thinks everything was suddenly rosy until one day it just wasn't, then wake up and get real. The problems here have been going on for years, for decades in fact. Along the way I'm sure there were good decisions made, and it's obvious that plenty of bad ones were made. Many bad decisions were probably made out of self interest or corruption, while some were probably made with good intentions. Point being, there are so many bad decisions that have led to where things stand today that it's a mixed bag of how we got here.

I guess the question on the table is do we expect the leadership to fix it or would we rather spend more time trying to fill out the scorecards. If there's one time I wish people would set aside their merciless judgment based whether there is an R or a D next to someone's name, this is it.

But, alas, I might first see unicorns before I see that because that's the world we live in, a world where so many have to feel that the most important things is to prove that they're right and someone else is wrong, even if that can't ever really be proved and even if that means problems just drag on.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Unfortunately, I think any solution to the problem will require a radical reworking of the school system. There would be serious resistance to that, from various stakeholder groups.

1. Should these kids be starting kindergarten at age 5, or sooner?
2. Should the school day be 8:42 to 3:46, or significantly longer?
3. Should the agrarian concept of summers off be eliminated, especially for those who are behind?
4. Should the employees, rather than the customers, be deciding what the product looks like?
5. What check can be placed on the amount of administration? Is there a bias toward a massive administration as a means of employment of residents?
6. Has Proposal A worked?
7. How can you ask DPS or any other district to pay 30%+ of their payroll costs to fund legacy pensions and benefits? Is an adjustment needed there?

There are deep problems, many of which exist in all districts in the state, which are masked over elsewhere but not here.

[downtownguy]

Not sure why no media outlet reported that schools are exempt from all City ordinances of any sort. This is all for show.

I don't understand how they are exempt. Can you elaborate?