Christopher Columbus Statue Defaced

[dtowncitylover]

Coud you provide us with an actual documented source that the Eastern half of the U.S. was teeming with millions of natives during the dawn of colonialism? I suspect you can't.

All your nonsense about what "white people" supposedly believe [[as opposed to Chinese Americans, I guess?) or "eurocentric education" [[as opposed to, what, Angolan education?) is just codespeak for "I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but Columbus=bad dude, so time to dredge up the Racism 101 syllabus".

And you probably don't realize gazhekwe is of Native ancestry and knows way more about this subject, and many more Native subjects, than you will never know. But please, like you always do, go on confidently talking about something you know nothing about.

Here's a HOF thread proving s/he knows more than you about Native studies:
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...aging-Gazhekwe

[downtownguy]

And you probably don't realize gazhekwe is of Native ancestry and knows way more about this subject, and many more Native subjects, than you will never know. But please, like you always do, go on confidently talking about something you know nothing about.

Here's a HOF thread proving s/he knows more than you about Native studies:
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...aging-Gazhekwe

Game. Set. Match.

[Bham1982]

And you probably don't realize gazhekwe is of Native ancestry and knows way more about this subject, and many more Native subjects, than you will never know. But please, like you always do, go on confidently talking about something you know nothing about.

Ah, so according to you a poster is correct based on their blood lineage. Is that your absurd claim? Why do we even have PhD programs, universities, or research, if we just need to find someone with the right ancestors?

"I am of European background, therefore anything I claim about anything regarding European-descended peoples is therefore correct." Or not.

In the real world, we deal with facts, which in academia is based on peer reviewed scholarship, not "truths" derived by a racist concept of blood lineage. That's kind of the whole point, dating back to the Enlightenment.

You choose to ignore peer reviewed scholarship on the matter, and tell us to "listen to the guy with native ancestry". Sorry, but no.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

And you don't win points by revising history. From the writings of Christopher Columbus, literally in his own words:

http://ageofex.marinersmuseum.org/in...rsection&id=65

"Now that so much gold is found, a dispute arises as to which brings more profit, whether to go about robbing or to go to the mines. A hundred castellanos are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand, and for all ages a good price must be paid."

Let me spell out in simple terms what Columbus is referring to here: Sex slavery. The kidnapping of native women to be sold for sex. This is what Columbus' men were doing, under his watch, with his knowledge and consent. If you'd like to offer an alternative explanation for those words, I'm all ears. Perhaps you should not be calling others ignorant when you are the one who is ignorant of the facts.

Also note the age of the girls he refers to as being in the most "demand": nine to ten years old. Child rape, plain and simple. Mass child rape of prepubescent girls.

If you believe in a literal Hell, then without a doubt, Columbus is burning there for all eternity.

Seems to me, we recently had a few of our military folks and civilian contractors fired for attempting to stop similar activity from some of our Afghan allies, guess those Afghans must be carrying on with the Columbus tradition or maybe some cultures never change

[dtowncitylover]

Ah, so according to you a poster is correct based on their blood lineage. Is that your absurd claim? Why do we even have PhD programs, universities, or research, if we just need to find someone with the right ancestors?

"I am of European background, therefore anything I claim about anything regarding European-descended peoples is therefore correct." Or not.

In the real world, we deal with facts, which in academia is based on peer reviewed scholarship, not "truths" derived by a racist concept of blood lineage. That's kind of the whole point, dating back to the Enlightenment.

You choose to ignore peer reviewed scholarship on the matter, and tell us to "listen to the guy with native ancestry". Sorry, but no.

I've read what you posted in a textbook. It makes me have no change of heart for what Columbus and the following European age of "discovery" did. In fact I don't think gazhekwe will refute what you're saying about numbers, NO ONE is certain about how many people were here before Columbus. But we are certain European contact didn't help increase their numbers! If someone forced their way into your house, pillaged your pantry, and stole your goods, do you think you would be kind to them?

And any way, What is being discussed is the fact that Columbus Day is still being honored when it shouldn't be.

And no, a poster is correct based on their facts. And gazhekwe has the facts. Unless you can produce your own PhD in Native Studies, gazhekwe's sources and her own knowledge are alot better than your 5th grade textbook cut out about population. [[Actually it's from a 1997 edition of US News and World Report, but it looks like something one would find a school textbook)

[Bham1982]

I've read what you posted in a textbook. It makes me have no change of heart for what Columbus and the following European age of "discovery" did. In fact I don't think gazhekwe will refute what you're saying about numbers, NO ONE is certain about how many people were here before Columbus. But we are certain European contact didn't help increase their numbers! If someone forced their way into your house, pillaged your pantry, and stole your goods, do you think you would be kind to them?

If you're not disputing the academic estimates, then what are we arguing about?

I never claimed that the European colonial powers weren't brutal. Obviously they were horrible, and their travels led to decimation of many peoples. And I don't blame the native peoples for defending themselves. These are separate issues from discussing the demographics prior to European colonization, or whether or not Columbus was evil.

[EastsideAl]

Despite Bham's usual diversions, and seeming willingness to argue any point to death, the question remains: why in the hell are we still celebrating Columbus Day?

Even if you don't believe that Columbus himself was particularly evil, for his time, there's little question that the forces he was working in service of, and helped to set in motion, subjugated, exploited, and killed off entire groups of humans across a whole hemisphere of the planet. The extent to which Columbus personally participated in the subjugation and killing really seems immaterial given his undeniable role in the overall historical calamity.

Even if you take the deterministic view that this process was somehow historically inevitable, and would have happened with or without the catalyst of Columbus' voyages, its initiation hardly seems like something to be celebrated in this [[hopefully) somewhat more enlightened time.

Add to all that the fact that Columbus was far from the first person to "discover" this continent, and never actually set foot in the place he was going to and falsely claimed to have actually found, and it doesn't take defacement of public property to feel that Columbus Day really seems like an empty sham of a holiday all the way around.

[gazhekwe]

The place was substantially populated, it seems B'ham accepts that, so, what are we fightin' for, don't ask me, I don't give a damn.

I have begun a campaign of discontinuing the honorific holiday, following on the heels f the State of Alaska, the cities of Portland, OR, Seattle, Minneapolis, Lawrence, KS, Albuqurque, Alpena, and more. I have alerted the City of Southfield, the State of Michigan so far, and plan to address all counties in Michigan with substantial Indian communities.

Many people do not know that Michigan is among the top ten states in the country for Native American population. We should take our place with those who are standing for truth in history.

PS, I want to thank those of you who weighed in with a vote of confidence for my knowledge of Native history. I very much appreciate that. It has been a life work for me to achieve this knowledge and I started on the path to counter the pitiful lack of information provided by our public schools and universities.

[bust]

I've resisted weighing in until now. I hope I won't regret it.

Some have said we celebrate Columbus Day because it celebrates Italian heritage.

1) Columbus is far from the best person to choose to represent Italians. As an Italian American myself [[I'm from only the second generation born on these shores) I can think of a long list of Italians I'd rather celebrate. Columbus was an ambitious sailor, but there is little to be proud of in the rest of his biography, and like most Italians, my family history has nothing in common with him.

2) Why should we have a holiday to celebrate Italians in the first place? What other ethnicity has that? Don't say the Irish have St. Patrick's Day -- people in Ireland barely celebrate it, and here it's only the die hards who take the day off. Don't say Paczki Day either. It's a Polish take on another holiday we don't take off, and most Americans haven't heard of it. Don't ask them to spell it either.

To those who've said Columbus was less brutal than Ferdinand and Isabella, Cortez, or the other conquistadores, I have no inclination to celebrate them either, and I believe that's an opinion most Spaniards share.

Finally, whether or not you support the act of defacing the statue, you cannot deny it has led to an interesting discussion. My guess is that was the point. And cost of clean up aside -- and you can debate whether that's worth it -- my guess is we've all learned something as a result.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

Just thought I'd add that we wouldn't even be having this delightful conversation without the man from Genoa and his ilk, I guess we owe him that much...just sayin

[kathy2trips]

Just thought I'd add that we wouldn't even be having this delightful conversation without the man from Genoa and his ilk, I guess we owe him that much...just sayin

Well, I'll say one thing for the early explorers of all ethnic persuasions: at least they got off their divans and 500 years later, we're still talking about it. Have I done anything worth remembering in 2515? Not yet.....

Yes, let's honor all European descendants with their own day. I, for one, would like to see a Belgian [[Flanders) celebration. I love the food. Also as a 50% Italian-American I would like to see us as an alternate celebrate Marconi Day. I found that to be a very significant contribution, and no native peoples were harmed in this innovation.

[Honky Tonk]

Well, I'll say one thing for the early explorers of all ethnic persuasions: at least they got off their divans and 500 years later, we're still talking about it. Have I done anything worth remembering in 2515? Not yet.....

Yes, let's honor all European descendants with their own day. I, for one, would like to see a Belgian [[Flanders) celebration. I love the food. Also as a 50% Italian-American I would like to see us as an alternate celebrate Marconi Day. I found that to be a very significant contribution, and no native peoples were harmed in this innovation.

A lot of people honor the Belgians Sundays by enjoying their waffles. [[No Native Americans were harmed in the waffle making process)

[Hermod]

Finally, whether or not you support the act of defacing the statue, you cannot deny it has led to an interesting discussion. My guess is that was the point. And cost of clean up aside -- and you can debate whether that's worth it -- my guess is we've all learned something as a result.

I wonder how philosophical and understanding everyone would be if someone defaced a statue of Martin Luther King on MLK Day

[Dan Wesson]

I don't give a damn.

I have begun a campaign of discontinuing the honorific holiday, following on the heels f the State of Alaska, the cities of Portland, OR, Seattle, Minneapolis, Lawrence, KS, Albuqurque, Alpena, and more. I have alerted the City of Southfield, the State of Michigan so far, and plan to address all counties in Michigan with substantial Indian communities.

Aha! I knew there was an agenda...

carry on.

[canuck]

Aha! I knew there was an agenda...

carry on.

Well, what's the use of complaining about something if you don't do something about it. I think that this matter shows that we need to reexamine the kind of propaganda we receive from childhood into later years. There is nothing innocent in the kind of "instruction" we get from educationla authorities. That is why a Class President or Top of the Class student is just as likely to be wrong as the class clown. Chances are if you answer properly to all the questions on your test and don't look at things in a skewed manner, you will impress authority figures, but not me.

Kudos to Gaz for her pondering these things which a lot of people would rather not look at in detail.

[SDCC]

"Resolution in Ypsilanti to rename Columbus Day as Indigenous Peoples Day says ""dislocation, disease, war, disenfranchisement, and other atrocities devastated"" Native Americans in Michigan"


http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/10/20/ypsilanti-columbus-day-indigenous-peoples-day/74288234/

[Pam]

Aha! I knew there was an agenda...

carry on.

Making sure people know the truth is an "agenda"? What's the "agenda" of people that refuse to see the truth and want to cling to ignorance? I don't get that.

[Dan Wesson]

Making sure people know the truth is an "agenda"? What's the "agenda" of people that refuse to see the truth and want to cling to ignorance? I don't get that.

AGENDA as in...

[uh-jen-duh]

noun, formally a plural of, agendum but usually used as a singular with plural, agendas or agenda.

1. a list, plan, outline, or the like, of things to be done, matters to be acted or voted upon, etc.: The chairman says we have a lengthy agenda this afternoon.

Your understanding of the word "agenda" is different.

The topic of truth is a subject that runs very, very deep.

Words have meaning and like truth can be misconstrued as exemplified by the above.

[belleislerunner]

I'm surprised they haven't found the perps yet - I actually think it was part of a more organized group.

Sunday I was driving in Dearborn - right off Michigan Ave/94 and I meant to be on Ford Road. So I turned right on Oakman Blvd between Michigan and Ford. There is a Christopher Columbus head bust there in the median on Oakman Blvs that was also similarly defaced and still with the red oozing. Someone is trying to get attention by thuggery.

[Bham1982]

Despite Bham's usual diversions, and seeming willingness to argue any point to death, the question remains: why in the hell are we still celebrating Columbus Day?

Even if you don't believe that Columbus himself was particularly evil, for his time, there's little question that the forces he was working in service of, and helped to set in motion, subjugated, exploited, and killed off entire groups of humans across a whole hemisphere of the planet. The extent to which Columbus personally participated in the subjugation and killing really seems immaterial given his undeniable role in the overall historical calamity.

Your logic could be applied to any holiday. Why do we celebrate Christmas? Easter? Christians have subjugated, exploited and killed millions. Why do we celebrate Independence Day? Veterans Day? Memorial day? Americans have also subjugated, exploited and killed millions.

Why even celebrate MLK day? He was a serial womanizer and misogonyst. How can we justify exploitation of women?

Why celebrate New Year's? Based on Gregorian calendar and Pope Gregory was one of the most corrupt and odious popes. Thanksgiving has the exact same issues as Columbus Day. Presidents Day honors slaveowners. Labor Day was founded by corrupt, violent, racist 19th century trade unionists. Passover honors those engaging in Mideast ethnic cleansing. Eid honors terrorists and stone age worldviews.

[oladub]

the question remains: why in the hell are we still celebrating Columbus Day?

My guess is that it was a political sop to emerging Italian-American voters. One could argue the same about MLK day. Given immigration trends, someday we might have Cinco de Mayo and an Muslim holiday added to our calendars.

from Wikipedia - "Many Italian-Americans observe Columbus Day as a celebration of their heritage, the first occasion being in New York City on October 12, 1866. Columbus Day was first enshrined as a legal holiday in the United States through the lobbying of Angelo Noce, a first generation Italian, in Denver. The first statewide Columbus Day holiday was proclaimed by Colorado governor Jesse F. McDonald in 1905, and it was made a statutory holiday in 1907. In April 1934, as a result of lobbying by the Knights of Columbus and New York City Italian leader Generoso Pope, Congress and President Franklin Delano Roosevelt proclaimed October 12 a federal holiday under the name Columbus Day."

Anyone want to blame Columbus Day on Roosevelt? Were Columbus Day just about the EurAsian discovery of America, Bjarni Herjolfson might be the first recorded discoverer. However, there are indications that unnamed Irish and Chinese discoverers preceeded him. I would vote in favor of an Indigenous People day over Columbus Day but since Native-Americans came over the Bering Strait in at least seven waves, which one came first? Like the Europeans, those later waves of settlers who came across the Bering Straits were invaders too.

[Dan Wesson]

...since Native-Americans came over the Bering Strait in at least seven waves, which one came first? Like the Europeans, those later waves of settlers who came across the Bering Straits were invaders too.

Lately there seems to be some DNA evidence that indicate some early arrivals came from western Europe. Russia no less.

Imagine that, can you get much circular than that. Condemning Europeans for atrocities upon Europeans.
[[ I know that was stupid)

Even among the tribes of the three fires there is much physical evidence of the different locations they immigrated from. You can tell the east Asian influence as well as the west Asian influence especially among the 75%+ blood quantum individuals. I'm sure the DNA analysis has or is in the process being done to verify.

[Pam]

AGENDA as in...

[uh-jen-duh]

noun, formally a plural of, agendum but usually used as a singular with plural, agendas or agenda.

1. a list, plan, outline, or the like, of things to be done, matters to be acted or voted upon, etc.: The chairman says we have a lengthy agenda this afternoon.

Your understanding of the word "agenda" is different.

The topic of truth is a subject that runs very, very deep.

Words have meaning and like truth can be misconstrued as exemplified by the above.

I know the dictionary definition. I also know it's used as a right wing slam word: "The gay agenda", "The feminist agenda".

[oladub]

Lately there seems to be some DNA evidence that indicate some early arrivals came from western Europe. Russia no less.

I haven't read that. However, I've read that one of the waves coming across the Bering Strait and originating near the Urals has common ancestry with Europeans. That's different than having come from Europe. Of all the modern tribes, Sioux's have the highest percentage of this haplotype.

[Dan Wesson]

I know the dictionary definition. I also know it's used as a right wing slam word: "The gay agenda", "The feminist agenda".

I'm as apolitical as they get. To me both sides are more alike than different.

I've learned all that is theater. I've learned to follow the money...