While in Flint, Don't drink their water

[downtownguy]

I am unaware of petitioning by the government of Flint to speed the day when Flint can once again buy more expensive Detroit water or any assistance from the federal government to do so. Do you feel better about yourself for writing your last sentence?

Perhaps you're unaware of it, because in October Gov. Snyder directed Flint to again get their water from Detroit. He even asked the legislature to approve $6 million dollars to cover half the cost of the reconnect, generous guy that he is.

[313WX]

Clearly, even the EPA director has more sense and is willing to accept more responsibility than Snyder by actually resigning.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...isis/79122730/

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2016/0...-water-crisis/

[313WX]

I'm not sure I even understand your post. Are you actually saying that people might have opted for lead poisoned water to potentially save a buck or two on a water bill? I am quite sure we assume that given that choice, nobody would have opted for it.

That's my understanding of the post you quoted...

[313WX]

BTW, I'm not sure if this was posted, but someone just so happened to break into a vacant office inside Flint's city hall that contained documents regarding the water situation back in December. Now they're claiming the documents have been "misplaced."

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde...aining_wa.html

[gumby]

Uh oh! Anonymous is on the case now. Not a group that Mr. Snyder wants to be on the wrong side of.

https://youtu.be/zXQfsURnE0w

[oladub]

I do not have "tunnel vision", but I do see a qualitative difference in a man-made and covered up disaster.

You somehow manage to ignore the fact, as reported, that the Democratic Mayor and elected city council of Flint voted to stop buying cleaner Detroit water and instead began pumping water out of the Flint River. You managed to ignore the fact that Obama's EPA knew for months that there were problems with Flint's drinking supply and did nothing about it. Flint's water supply was both a bi-partisan man made and bi-partisan covered up disaster.

[oladub]

Perhaps you're unaware of it, because in October Gov. Snyder directed Flint to again get their water from Detroit. He even asked the legislature to approve $6 million dollars to cover half the cost of the reconnect, generous guy that he is.

I wasn't aware of it. Snyder's action was warranted. Rachel Maddow and the President should be thanking Snyder for doing so.

I see too that Obama appointed EPA administrator Susan Hedman has resigned. the state notified EPA officials in April 2015 that Flint was not treating the river water with additives to prevent corrosion from pipes. "It says Hedman and others in the regional EPA office voiced concern to state and city officials over the next few months. But it wasn't until October 16 that EPA established a task force to provide technical help — the day Flint switched back to the Detroit water system.'Mismanagement has plagued the region for far too long and Ms. Hedman's resignation is way overdue,' said U.S. Rep. Jason Chaffetz of Utah, chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3xyp412Q8

[Wesley Mouch]

I'm not sure I even understand your post. Are you actually saying that people might have opted for lead poisoned water to potentially save a buck or two on a water bill? I am quite sure we assume that given that choice, nobody would have opted for it.

I'm confused by the flying posts, so I'll just summarize:
1) Saving money for Flint residents is a valid goal. Nobody knew unacceptable water was going to result. Not Dems nor Repubs nor moonmen. There was monitoring. There are standards. The system failed.
2) This is a valid issue. The results stink. The Blame Game is uninteresting -- and is out of control. Folks of all political stripes have mud on them. I don't see where Snyder is any more to blame to dozens of others -- except in the vivid imaginations of the naive. I expect we'll here how the Koch Brothers are also guilty soon.

[Király]

This situation is getting international attention. It was the top story on the CBC national news last night here in Canada.

[Wesley Mouch]

This situation is getting international attention. It was the top story on the CBC national news last night here in Canada.

It bloody well should be top international news.

Regardless of your political take on it, its a very serious problem when the world's leading country can't manage to deliver water to its own citizens that meets its own standards.

We can and should debate this. But something failed. You can blame Obama, Snyder, or the man-in-the-moon. There's clearly a serious problem with how we [[and probably most of the world) test their drinking water. This should have been detected by the local water board long before others rang the bell. How did our systems miss this? Does the EPA certify how tests are done in urban areas to protect its citizens. If so, how did this system fail? How can we fix it?

There are a lot of concerns raised here -- and I'll bet this problem isn't just local. It just hasn't been made visible. Let's get on this. We deserve better. Firing an EPA administrator might be a start -- but it probably shouldn't be the end.

[trstar]

It bloody well should be top international news.

Regardless of your political take on it, its a very serious problem when the world's leading country can't manage to deliver water to its own citizens that meets its own standards.

We can and should debate this. But something failed. You can blame Obama, Snyder, or the man-in-the-moon. There's clearly a serious problem with how we [[and probably most of the world) test their drinking water. This should have been detected by the local water board long before others rang the bell. How did our systems miss this? Does the EPA certify how tests are done in urban areas to protect its citizens. If so, how did this system fail? How can we fix it?

There are a lot of concerns raised here -- and I'll bet this problem isn't just local. It just hasn't been made visible. Let's get on this. We deserve better. Firing an EPA administrator might be a start -- but it probably shouldn't be the end.

A DSWD study in 2004 determined that the Flint water system had quality issues that needed to be addressed. The slow response will cost this state billions of dollars.

[Wesley Mouch]

A DSWD study in 2004 determined that the Flint water system had quality issues that needed to be addressed. The slow response will cost this state billions of dollars.

I think there were more than just this one failure, don't you?

[Don K]

I think there were more than just this one failure, don't you?

Mmmm ... okay, there was a systemic failure here. The question now is where do we go from here? Will the majority party [[we all know who that is, but I won't mention the name) in Congress support giving EPA the authority and resources to monitor and blow the whistle on local water authorities? Or will we hear rhetoric about jackbooted EPA thugs running roughshod over the sacred sovereignty of the states? EPA depends on state departments like MIDEQ to monitor water quality because it doesn't have the people or resources to check every spigot in the country, and the assumption is that MIDEQ is a competent organization that hasn't been corrupted by partisan considerations. If DEQ is under the thumb of a governor mostly preoccupied with covering his sorry ass, then all bets are off.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You can't simultaneously starve EPA at budget time and then complain that they didn't warn us about this situation.

[313WX]

Gotta love the irony.

When well-meaning citizens questioned the legalities of the state of Michigan imposing pseudo-dictators on them to run their local communities, those folks were seen as evil, agenda-driven obstructionists.

Now the state of Michigan is doing the same thing when the EPA [[federal government) more or less calls them incompetent idiots unable to handle this situation on their own and opts to dictate how THEY resolve this crisis the state of Michigan caused.

You can't make this shit up!

[oladub]

Mmmm ... okay, there was a systemic failure here. The question now is where do we go from here? Will the majority party [[we all know who that is, but I won't mention the name) in Congress support giving EPA the authority and resources to monitor and blow the whistle on local water authorities? Or will we hear rhetoric about jackbooted EPA thugs running roughshod over the sacred sovereignty of the states? EPA depends on state departments like MIDEQ to monitor water quality because it doesn't have the people or resources to check every spigot in the country, and the assumption is that MIDEQ is a competent organization that hasn't been corrupted by partisan considerations. If DEQ is under the thumb of a governor mostly preoccupied with covering his sorry ass, then all bets are off.

Sorry, you can't have it both ways. You can't simultaneously starve EPA at budget time and then complain that they didn't warn us about this situation.

Repeat: Obama appointed EPA administrator Susan Hedman has resigned. the state notified EPA officials in April 2015 that Flint was not treating the river water with additives to prevent corrosion from pipes. "It says Hedman and others in the regional EPA office voiced concern to state and city officials over the next few months. But it wasn't until October 16 that EPA established a task force to provide technical help — the day Flint switched back to the Detroit water system.'Mismanagement has plagued the region for far too long and Ms. Hedman's resignation is way overdue,' said U.S. Rep. Jason Chaffetz of Utah, chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3xyp412Q8

Obama's EPA administrator wasn't doing a "heck of a job" either. The EPA must have had other priorities to spend $7.8B on. Remember that Flint's Mayor[[D) and City Council voted 7-1 to replace cleaner but more expensive Detroit water with Flint River water. That is what set this chain of events in motion unless you want to consider profiteering on the part of Detroit [[Democrats) who priced their water to be so expensive.

DEQ administrator Wyant, who has also resigned, announced that for 17 months his department had been using the wrong federal requirements to assess Flint's water. Sounds like a communication error neither the DEQ or EPA caught. Dan Wyant served as director of the Michigan Department of Agriculture under both Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm and Republican Gov. John Engler before Gov. Rick Snyder tapped him to head up the DEQ in 2011. There is plenty of blame to go around. The people of Flint suffered at the hands of both parties.

[Wesley Mouch]

Repeat: Obama appointed EPA administrator Susan Hedman has resigned. the state notified EPA officials in April 2015 that Flint was not treating the river water with additives to prevent corrosion from pipes. "It says Hedman and others in the regional EPA office voiced concern to state and city officials over the next few months. But it wasn't until October 16 that EPA established a task force to provide technical help — the day Flint switched back to the Detroit water system.'Mismanagement has plagued the region for far too long and Ms. Hedman's resignation is way overdue,' said U.S. Rep. Jason Chaffetz of Utah, chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3xyp412Q8

Obama's EPA administrator wasn't doing a "heck of a job" either. The EPA must have had other priorities to spend $7.8B on. Remember that Flint's Mayor[[D) and City Council voted 7-1 to replace cleaner but more expensive Detroit water with Flint River water. That is what set this chain of events in motion unless you want to consider profiteering on the part of Detroit [[Democrats) who priced their water to be so expensive.

DEQ administrator Wyant, who has also resigned, announced that for 17 months his department had been using the wrong federal requirements to assess Flint's water. Sounds like a communication error neither the DEQ or EPA caught. Dan Wyant served as director of the Michigan Department of Agriculture under both Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm and Republican Gov. John Engler before Gov. Rick Snyder tapped him to head up the DEQ in 2011. There is plenty of blame to go around. The people of Flint suffered at the hands of both parties.

Pegging the blame on the Democrats would be just as partisan and unfair as Michael Moore's calls for legal action against Synder.

Flint was apparently facing unreasonable costs from Detroit. They're in a financial crisis. Detroit by at least one serious report is overstaffed 400%. That's a lot of savings. And Flint needs the cash. Money hires the talented people who know how to run a city and water board.

If the experts from Flint, DEQ, and EPA didn't see the lead problem -- why should the Mayor, City Council, or Emergency Manager be so clairvoyant.

[Dumpling]

Oladub, I don't believe that Flint's City Council ever specifically voted to
use Flint River water. They were persuaded by an engineering firm to join
the Karegnondi Water Authority, which was to supply Lake Huron water, not
Flint River water.
The Karegnondi Water Authority concept did not originate with Flint City
Council. Flint City Council DID specifically vote to join Karegnondi Water
Authority.
Flint's Emergency Manager under Gov. Snyder did make the decision to use Flint
River water after negotiations with DWSD went poorly.

A case can be made that DWSD, freshly out from federal oversight right at
the very moment that the City of Detroit was placed under emergency management,
could have made nice and billed Flint LESS than the average community rate
until the Karegnondi connection was made, in light of Flint's financial issues.
At that time, representatives of the more affluent counties, rather than making
that very suggestion, were instead upset about possibly having to absorb Highland
Park's unpaid water bills.

[Don K]

Oladub, I don't believe that Flint's City Council ever specifically voted to
use Flint River water. They were persuaded by an engineering firm to join
the Karegnondi Water Authority, which was to supply Lake Huron water, not
Flint River water.

Right. My understanding is Flint City Council voted to disconnect from DWSD and get water from KWA. At the time the decision was made to get water from the Flint River, Flint Council could hold all of the votes they wanted, but they had no legal effect because the dictator ... err... EM was in town.

[oladub]

Oladub, I don't believe that Flint's City Council ever specifically voted to use Flint River water. They were persuaded by an engineering firm to join the Karegnondi Water Authority, which was to supply Lake Huron water, not Flint River water. The Karegnondi Water Authority concept did not originate with Flint City Council. Flint City Council DID specifically vote to join Karegnondi Water Authority. Flint's Emergency Manager under Gov. Snyder did make the decision to use Flint River water after negotiations with DWSD went poorly.

A case can be made that DWSD, freshly out from federal oversight right at
the very moment that the City of Detroit was placed under emergency management, could have made nice and billed Flint LESS than the average community rate until the Karegnondi connection was made, in light of Flint's financial issues. At that time, representatives of the more affluent counties, rather than making that very suggestion, were instead upset about possibly having to absorb Highland Park's unpaid water bills.

I posted this earlier. Maybe the Huffington Post was wrong. "For decades, Flint bought its water from the Detroit Water And Sewerage Department. In 2013, the Flint city council voted to join the Karegnondi Water Authority, a new system that would pump water from Lake Huron. But Flint couldn't connect until 2016, so the city, operating under the control of emergency managers appointed by Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder [[R), opted to save money by using the Flint River in the meantime.
Local leaders in Flint, including then-mayor Dayne Walling [[D), literally toasted the decision by drinking glasses of the new water at a ceremony in April 2014. “It’s a historic moment for the city of Flint to return to its roots and use our own river as our drinking water supply," Walling said at the time."
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html#3

Here is a picture including the mayor and some members of the Flint City Council seemingly supporting their decision as approved by the state manager.
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html#3

And another photo of the Mayor [[D) personally shutting off Detroit water.http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html#6

Flint's decisions did have to be implemented by the State manager. I couldn't find any comments or votes by the city council disapproving the decision to start drinking River water. Perhaps someone else can.

[Dumpling]

Repeat: Obama appointed EPA administrator Susan Hedman has resigned. the state notified EPA officials in April 2015 that Flint was not treating the river water with additives to prevent corrosion from pipes. "It says Hedman and others in the regional EPA office voiced concern to state and city officials over the next few months. But it wasn't until October 16 that EPA established a task force to provide technical help — the day Flint switched back to the Detroit water system.'Mismanagement has plagued the region for far too long and Ms. Hedman's resignation is way overdue,' said U.S. Rep. Jason Chaffetz of Utah, chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3xyp412Q8

Obama's EPA administrator wasn't doing a "heck of a job" either. The EPA must have had other priorities to spend $7.8B on. Remember that Flint's Mayor[[D) and City Council voted 7-1 to replace cleaner but more expensive Detroit water with Flint River water. That is what set this chain of events in motion unless you want to consider profiteering on the part of Detroit [[Democrats) who priced their water to be so expensive.

DEQ administrator Wyant, who has also resigned, announced that for 17 months his department had been using the wrong federal requirements to assess Flint's water. Sounds like a communication error neither the DEQ or EPA caught. Dan Wyant served as director of the Michigan Department of Agriculture under both Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm and Republican Gov. John Engler before Gov. Rick Snyder tapped him to head up the DEQ in 2011. There is plenty of blame to go around. The people of Flint suffered at the hands of both parties.

The bolded part in your quote is not QUITE correct.

[Wesley Mouch]

The bolded part in your quote is not QUITE correct.

I understand the Flint City Council was just about to bring in bottled water for everyone from a heavenly spring -- but the dastardly EM prevented the vote.

Everyone knows that EM's make bad decisions -- and City Councils only make good decisions. I understand that Flint City Council was fully aware and posted a public letter on this issue in a pickle jar not the porch of Funk and Wagnalls.

[gvidas]

A Flint home had tap water containing as much lead as the EPA limit for unleaded gasoline.

http://flintwaterstudy.org/2015/08/h...seholds-water/

Virginia Tech collaborated with Ms. Walters’ on a follow-up sampling event. In this case we used bottles that allowed consumers to use water at a normal flow rate. We also collected 30 bottles from her home at low, medium and high flow rates. The drinking water samples all had extremely high lead levels between 200 ppb to 13,200 ppb [[Figure 2).

Since 1996, the EPA has prohibited the sale of gasoline for highway use containing more than 0.05 grams per gallon.

1 gallon = 3.78541 liters
0.05 grams per 3.78541 liters = 0.0132086088429 grams per liter = 13208.6 parts per billion

[313WX]

The bolded part in your quote is not QUITE correct.

Political shills will always be shilling...

[Zacha341]

Well, perhaps the rolling resignations are just coincidental? Uh, not.

The Flint disaster is starting to seem more of a bipartisan mess with more than enough blame from the bearers of the [[Dem) and [[R) brand.

Repeat: Obama appointed EPA administrator Susan Hedman has resigned. the state notified EPA officials in April 2015 that Flint was not treating the river water with additives to prevent corrosion from pipes. "It says Hedman and others in the regional EPA office voiced concern to state and city officials over the next few months. But it wasn't until October 16 that EPA established a task force to provide technical help — the day Flint switched back to the Detroit water system.'Mismanagement has plagued the region for far too long and Ms. Hedman's resignation is way overdue,' said U.S. Rep. Jason Chaffetz of Utah, chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3xyp412Q8

Obama's EPA administrator wasn't doing a "heck of a job" either....

DEQ administrator Wyant, who has also resigned, announced that for 17 months his department had been using the wrong federal requirements to assess Flint's water. Sounds like a communication error neither the DEQ or EPA caught....

[oladub]

The bolded part in your quote is not QUITE correct.

Since the new pipeline from Lake Huron wasn't going to be completed until three years after their vote, Flints City Council and Mayor decided to stop buying water from Detroit, the city council and mayor celebrated the introduction of Flint River water, the Mayor himself shut the valve on Detroits water - with a smile on his face, and there is no recorded objection by council members in doing so, it's incredulous to believe that replacing cleaner Detroit water with Flint River water was foisted on the Mayor and City Council of Flint. Perhaps you missed this but consider that "Darnell Earley, the Democrat who served as Snyder's emergency manager said "that the decisions to terminate the Detroit deal and rely temporarily on the Flint River “were both a part of a long-term plan that was approved by Flint’s [[Democratic) mayor, and confirmed by a City Council vote of 7–1 in March of 2013 — a full seven months before I began my term as emergency manager.” and The federal Environmental Protection Agency — whose Democratic chief was appointed by our Democratic president — knew for months that there were concerns about Flint’s water, and did nothing. - http://www.nationalreview.com/article/430072/flint-lead-water-scandal

Again, this is a bi-partisan screw up and Snyder, at least, has acknowledged fault on his part.