While in Flint, Don't drink their water

**gumby** · January-14-16, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Well, yes. Intolerance for mistakes results in mediocrity. I think its better if innovation is welcomed, and failures are tolerated.

Don't misunderstand. You do have to perform, too. But don't measure success only by lack of a fuck-up. In Silicon Valley, failure in pursuit of excellence is rewarded.

The water in Flint sucks for more reasons than Snyder or an EM. So in this case, I think the outrage is misplaced. More than just one person fucked-up here.

This was a systemic fuck-up -- which I believe was in pursuit of improvement. Lower costs for Flint. Economic viability. Jobs. If you come to this party without pre-conceived notions of guilt, I think the conclusions would differ.

What happened in Flint was unacceptable. No excuses. What's been happening to our citizens in Detroit and Flint is unacceptable on a daily basis. No excuses. Our leaders should take risks. And sometimes they'll make mistakes.

Mistakes are fine but these mother fuckers poisoned me and my neighbors for months and sloughed off our obviously genuine outcry, told us to "relax". Now it is coming out that the water crisis probably led to the outbreak of Legionnaires disease causing 10 deaths. If it was simply a mistake that would be one thing but they falsified records to cover up their "mistake". It is infuriating to see the apologists stand up for this administration while a city of 100,000 people have to overpay for water we cannot use.

**maverick1** · January-14-16, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Well, yes. Intolerance for mistakes results in mediocrity. I think its better if innovation is welcomed, and failures are tolerated.

Don't misunderstand. You do have to perform, too. But don't measure success only by lack of a fuck-up. In Silicon Valley, failure in pursuit of excellence is rewarded.

The water in Flint sucks for more reasons than Snyder or an EM. So in this case, I think the outrage is misplaced. More than just one person fucked-up here.

This was a systemic fuck-up -- which I believe was in pursuit of improvement. Lower costs for Flint. Economic viability. Jobs. If you come to this party without pre-conceived notions of guilt, I think the conclusions would differ.

What happened in Flint was unacceptable. No excuses. What's been happening to our citizens in Detroit and Flint is unacceptable on a daily basis. No excuses. Our leaders should take risks. And sometimes they'll make mistakes.

So you're ok with whomever you feel is your leader to risk your, and your family's safety, health, and well being for efficiency and cost savings?

**RaumVogel** · January-15-16, 03:02 AM

It's possible another factor involved is "Affluenza".I mean all of these politicians meant to do their jobs,they just didn't know what they were doing was wrong because they have been so spoiled all of their lives.I can't wait for Trump to start making "mistakes" after he's elected.It should be entertaining. </s>

**renf** · January-15-16, 09:13 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/15/op...ttom-well&_r=0

The lead editorial in the morning paper describes the water crisis in Flint and lays much of the blame upon our governor. The WashPo has an event more troubling story about Flint water based on the research of the Va Tech testing.l

**Wesley Mouch** · January-15-16, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by gumby

Mistakes are fine but these mother fuckers poisoned me and my neighbors for months and sloughed off our obviously genuine outcry, told us to "relax". Now it is coming out that the water crisis probably led to the outbreak of Legionnaires disease causing 10 deaths. If it was simply a mistake that would be one thing but they falsified records to cover up their "mistake". It is infuriating to see the apologists stand up for this administration while a city of 100,000 people have to overpay for water we cannot use.

Legionella is known to be caused by poor or inattentive air-conditioning water tower treatment. Until I hear otherwise from a credible source, this is unrelated. It is coincidental. And since its deadly, its important to look at possible links.

But until a link is scientifically established, this is just a witch hunt finding a witch.

**313WX** · January-15-16, 05:33 PM

Regardless of one's opinion, the fact is, just like some [[IMO foolishly) want to believe Coleman Young was responsible for Detroit's downfall, history will judge Rick Snyder just as harshly for either consciously or unconsciously poisoning a city of marginalized people against their will.

As stated before, I eagerly await the day he and his ilk are escorted to their jail cells. It's coming soon.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · January-15-16, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by renf

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/15/op...ttom-well&_r=0

The lead editorial in the morning paper describes the water crisis in Flint and lays much of the blame upon our governor. The WashPo has an event more troubling story about Flint water based on the research of the Va Tech testing.l

Excellent editorial in the NYT. I encourage everyone to read it, and contemplate where up to $1.5 billion might come from to correct this "cost saving" measure.

**jcole** · January-15-16, 08:20 PM

For anyone who thinks the Flint water issue is a tempest in a teapot, here's a lovely graphic depicting the dangers [[compiled from the Washington Post)

The EPA considers anything about 5,000 ppb to be toxic waste.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ter-really-is/

**Jimaz** · January-15-16, 08:36 PM

↑ To be clear, this is parts per billion of lead, not Legionella bacteria.

Good post, jcole.

**Jimaz** · January-15-16, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

... Until I hear otherwise from a credible source, this is unrelated....

What you hear or do not hear is what is unrelated.

There is help available for coping with delusions of grandeur.

**313WX** · January-15-16, 10:18 PM

BTW, documentation from October 2014 [[15 months ago) shows that even General Motors informed the State of Michigan and Governor Snyder that they would not be using Flint's water for INDUSTRIAL use because it was too corrosive.

With that in mind, did Snyder and his Ilk ever consider that MAYBE if the water was too corrosive for INDUSTRIAL use, it most certainly couldn't be very safe for HUMAN consumption?

So it'll be interesting to see what Snyder and Co's guilty plea will be. The only two choices they have are incompetence or conscious intent to harm [[corruption).

**RaumVogel** · January-15-16, 10:18 PM

http://deadstate.org/after-poisoning...l-is-past-due/

**313WX** · January-15-16, 10:35 PM

And the irony [[heck, let's just call it poetic justice) in all of this?

The guy enough people voted into office in hopes that he would supposedly save Michigan money by simply "socking it" to places to places like Detroit, DPS Flint, Pontiac, Inkster, etc. will actually end up costing state taxpayers billions more in what could have been avoidable costs by the time his term ends as a result of his "socking it" to the aforementioned places.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · January-16-16, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

And the irony [[heck, let's just call it poetic justice) in all of this?

The guy enough people voted into office in hopes that he would supposedly save Michigan money by simply "socking it" to places to places like Detroit, DPS Flint, Pontiac, Inkster, etc. will actually end up costing state taxpayers billions more in what could have been avoidable costs by the time his term ends as a result of his "socking it" to the aforementioned places.

The "Nerd" has been screwing his "customers" since he was elected.

**Cincinnati_Kid** · January-16-16, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by rex

Been a while Dyes. Landed in A2. Sucks about Flint's h2o. Not sure what Ann Arbor is doing but the water coming out of the taps here tastes better than it does in Detroit and the metro area. I can put it in a bottle and in the morning at room temp it still tastes good

Do you think as affluent as A2 is, something like this would happen there? In fact, the "Nerd" has a residence there, so your water probably tastes better than every one else's in the state.

**gumby** · January-16-16, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Legionella is known to be caused by poor or inattentive air-conditioning water tower treatment. Until I hear otherwise from a credible source, this is unrelated. It is coincidental. And since its deadly, its important to look at possible links.

But until a link is scientifically established, this is just a witch hunt finding a witch.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde...es_knew_o.html

**douglasm** · January-16-16, 02:32 PM

A problem with the New York Times article? It is my understanding that the Flint City Council had no decision making power in setting up Flint's water system switching from the Detroit system to one using Flint River water. Correct?

**RaumVogel** · January-16-16, 08:08 PM

I told you all FEMA was coming back: http://www.freeallegiance.org/forums...pic=71656&st=0

**renf** · January-16-16, 08:29 PM

Do you suppose our current governor ever thinks about what happened to our first territorial governor, General William Hull? I do not think it will come to that.

**Dumpling** · January-16-16, 09:25 PM

In May 2013 Flint Emergency Manager Ed Kurtz was in negotiations with DWSD about
whether Flint should remain a customer of DWSD.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde...er_says_n.html

Mr. Kurtz decided that purchasing DWSD water should come to an end - there appeared
to be a net short term as well as a long term savings - but before that happened, Governor Snyder did arrange for a meeting between the interested parties:

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/inde...water_war.html

Termination fees? Hardball, there.

**Dumpling** · January-16-16, 09:42 PM

Wikipedia has an entry about the Karegnondi Water Authority:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karegn...ater_Authority

This Wikipedia entry shows that Rowe Engineering told the Flint City Council that
they could choose between three options for the City: [[Rowe considered this as
most expensive) staying as a customer of DWSD; [[next most expensive) obtaining
the City's own water from the Flint River; [[least expensive) obtaining its water
from the Karegnondi Water Authority.

In consideration of this technical advice, in March 2013, Flint City Council voted to
obtain water from the Karegnondi Water Authority.

Note that Flint City has a "strong mayor" form of government and Flint's mayor
at that time, Dayne Walling, was also a member of the Karegnondi Water
Authority. Dayne Walling's finance director at the time, serving at the discretion
of the mayor, was Gerald Ambrose, who later became Flint's Emergency Manager
in January 2015.

**Dumpling** · January-16-16, 10:03 PM

Here is a New York Times piece on the Flint water crisis from March 2015:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/25/us...arer.html?_r=0

This article states that, in March of 2015, the Flint City Council, after hearing
about numerous issues experienced by their constituents with the Flint water
after the switch to Flint River water in October 2013, voted to reconnect with
DWSD if at all possible. This vote by the Council was apparently ignored by
Flint's administration at this particular point in time.

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · January-17-16, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by renf

Do you suppose our current governor ever thinks about what happened to our first territorial governor, General William Hull? I do not think it will come to that.

Perhaps it should, but with the sentence carried out?

**DetroiterOnTheWestCoast** · January-17-16, 01:16 AM

I can see how this ultimately plays out.....

In an ironic twist of fate, Snyder's Emergency Manager's "cost saving" measures costs $1.5 billion to mitigate [[not fix as the health damage is irreversible). The state is thrown into a fiscal crisis; under provisions of new law a state Emergency Manager is appointed; the GOP governor and legislature are then powerless. The State Emergency Manager is Michael Moore.....

Impossible of course, but I would LOVE to see how the Governor and legislature would feel.

**bust** · January-17-16, 01:21 AM

Democrats will be elected, they'll be blamed for all the problems they inherited despite any progress they'll make, then next election Republicans will be chosen by an impatient public only to make the same kinds of mistakes again...

By the way, I'm not beholden to the Democrats. And I'm not talking local politics. But I've seen this pattern time and time again. Haven't you?