While in Flint, Don't drink their water

**313WX** · March-19-16, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Baselinepunk

Wikipedia, Wes?

Fucking really?

Figures you live in 2006.

Hopefully, he doesn't break his knee caps bending over so far backwards.

**Dumpling** · March-20-16, 05:54 PM

"On October 4, 2014, Hospital A hyperchlorinated their water system and continues to test for Legionella."

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/m...L_510722_7.pdf

**Dumpling** · March-20-16, 06:47 PM

I am not interested in slamming Gov. Snyder or Wesley Mouch. I could slam
myself but won't do that either.
Back in 2014, I was aware that Flint had high trihalomethanes and brown water. I could have gone and checked the situation out more carefully but didn't. FWIW I used to do the corrosivity testing at a commercial water testing lab. [[That was part-time, pay just above minimum wage, with no benefits. Why am I not still there

). The samples were typically from home water well drillers. Brown water could mean tannins in the water which would generate trihalomethanes upon chlorination.

Since the Flint problem was being reported in the news and process changes in the Flint water treatment plant were being planned accordingly I did not give the matter more thought. I did miss the news about the GM plant water changeover.

**Dumpling** · March-20-16, 07:05 PM

But it does look like that someone should have been checking tap water chlorine
residuals in the distribution system at hospitals, residences, and points in-between
from before the water switch. Given that the spike in Legionella started in June
2014, it looks as though the residuals might have been too low to prevent
pathogens in the water at that point in time. That information should have been
conveyed to the public works management, and if the problem couldn't be readily
addressed by them, THAT information should have gone to BOTH MDEQ and to the
Emergency Manager. THEN the Emergency Manager should have let Gov. Snyder
know. YA, THAT, in cc'd email, hardcopy and maybe letters to the regional EPA.
If we have to do a witch hunt this is a good place to start.

https://www.cityofflint.com/wp-conte...s/CCR-2014.pdf

**313WX** · March-23-16, 04:47 PM

Smoking gun [[finally)?

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...mmer/82173086/

Report: Snyder discussed Flint lead in summer 2015

**Wesley Mouch** · March-24-16, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

Smoking gun [[finally)?

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...mmer/82173086/

Report: Snyder discussed Flint lead in summer 2015

You mean this smoking gun?

Shortly after state officials acknowledged the lead contamination, Snyder helped get Flint switched back to Detroit’s Lake Huron water system in mid-October.

Isn't that what a governor should do. Listen, and respond?

**G-DDT** · March-24-16, 02:52 PM

No, he did not listen. In fact, he had "poor ears", so he claims. To be a good politician you need top notch and vigilant staff collecting data and analyzing things-to be on top of them [[boring as Granholm's bureaucratic dronings were, she kept us afloat). Receptivity was not there.

Snyder blames poor staff under him. They were supposed to be his eyes and ears. Snyder is just as liable for having hired, sanctioned, and trusted his staff-not use him as scapegoats while this goes on for two years. Despite the incredibly vapid and suspiciously dedicated denials of some folks on this thread-just look back and you will find many smoking guns. You had workers in Flint drinking from their own coolers. Folks were not as ignorant as the purport themselves to be.

When this whole debacle started there were vicious attempts to stifle it and shove it under the rug as the health problems were quite apparent. How often is this going to happen in more and more communities where industrialization has extremely poisoned the Earth, and conservo A-holes refuse to be accountable, pass the buck/blame, or hide under the mire of a wordy investigation to placate genuine concerns? If examples must be set for criminals, the same should be for politicians.

Also, the same shouting down of the voices of Flint happened around the time a thread about whether one drinks one's own tap water. I [[aware of the risks with plastic bottles and the dubious sources) admitted to being a bottle water drinker [[nothing fancy but nothing basic-if water is all I drink-and has been for 16 years-I'm going to make it worth my while). A strange sea of personas popped up [[some choosing to haunt me in reply to the next three posts I commented on elsewhere) to shout down bottle water usage. Now, drinking bottled water strangely seems the vogue [[if not eh-I guess maybe-pragmatic) thing in Flint.

We can harp about "how heads will roll" won't bring in the "healing" [[classic "tin halo" shtick argument), but penalizing those accountable will indeed certainly put an end to a lot of future wounds to be created by those who will realize the consequences that occur when they chose to cut corners and put the concerns of their industrial allies and cronies above the community.

**313WX** · March-24-16, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by G-DDT

No, he did not listen. In fact, he had "poor ears", so he claims. To be a good politician you need top notch and vigilant staff collecting data and analyzing things-to be on top of them [[boring as Granholm's bureaucratic dronings were, she kept us afloat). Receptivity was not there.

Snyder blames poor staff under him. They were supposed to be his eyes and ears. Snyder is just as liable for having hired, sanctioned, and trusted his staff-not use him as scapegoats while this goes on for two years. Despite the incredibly vapid and suspiciously dedicated denials of some folks on this thread-just look back and you will find many smoking guns. You had workers in Flint drinking from their own coolers. Folks were not as ignorant as the purport themselves to be.

When this whole debacle started there were vicious attempts to stifle it and shove it under the rug as the health problems were quite apparent. How often is this going to happen in more and more communities where industrialization has extremely poisoned the Earth, and conservo A-holes refuse to be accountable, pass the buck/blame, or hide under the mire of a wordy investigation to placate genuine concerns? If examples must be set for criminals, the same should be for politicians.

Also, the same shouting down of the voices of Flint happened around the time a thread about whether one drinks one's own tap water. I [[aware of the risks with plastic bottles and the dubious sources) admitted to being a bottle water drinker [[nothing fancy but nothing basic-if water is all I drink-and has been for 16 years-I'm going to make it worth my while). A strange sea of personas popped up [[some choosing to haunt me in reply to the next three posts I commented on elsewhere) to shout down bottle water usage. Now, drinking bottled water strangely seems the vogue [[if not eh-I guess maybe-pragmatic) thing in Flint.

We can harp about "how heads will roll" won't bring in the "healing" [[classic "tin halo" shtick argument), but penalizing those accountable will indeed certainly put an end to a lot of future wounds to be created by those who will realize the consequences that occur when they chose to cut corners and put the concerns of their industrial allies and cronies above the community.

Very well said, especially the bolded.

**gumby** · March-24-16, 03:24 PM

What part of mid-October is shortly after early summer?

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

You mean this smoking gun?

Isn't that what a governor should do. Listen, and respond?

**Baselinepunk** · March-25-16, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by g-ddt

no, he did not listen. In fact, he had "poor ears", so he claims. To be a good politician you need top notch and vigilant staff collecting data and analyzing things-to be on top of them [[boring as granholm's bureaucratic dronings were, she kept us afloat). Receptivity was not there.

Snyder blames poor staff under him. They were supposed to be his eyes and ears. Snyder is just as liable for having hired, sanctioned, and trusted his staff-not use him as scapegoats while this goes on for two years. Despite the incredibly vapid and suspiciously dedicated denials of some folks on this thread-just look back and you will find many smoking guns. You had workers in flint drinking from their own coolers. Folks were not as ignorant as the purport themselves to be.

When this whole debacle started there were vicious attempts to stifle it and shove it under the rug as the health problems were quite apparent. How often is this going to happen in more and more communities where industrialization has extremely poisoned the earth, and conservo a-holes refuse to be accountable, pass the buck/blame, or hide under the mire of a wordy investigation to placate genuine concerns? If examples must be set for criminals, the same should be for politicians.

Also, the same shouting down of the voices of flint happened around the time a thread about whether one drinks one's own tap water. I [[aware of the risks with plastic bottles and the dubious sources) admitted to being a bottle water drinker [[nothing fancy but nothing basic-if water is all i drink-and has been for 16 years-i'm going to make it worth my while). A strange sea of personas popped up [[some choosing to haunt me in reply to the next three posts i commented on elsewhere) to shout down bottle water usage. Now, drinking bottled water strangely seems the vogue [[if not eh-i guess maybe-pragmatic) thing in flint.

We can harp about "how heads will roll" won't bring in the "healing" [[classic "tin halo" shtick argument), but penalizing those accountable will indeed certainly put an end to a lot of future wounds to be created by those who will realize the consequences that occur when they chose to cut corners and put the concerns of their industrial allies and cronies above the community.

STANDING OVATION!!!!!!!

Wes, get your buns up and put those hands together . . . . .

**313WX** · March-27-16, 07:05 AM

Speaking of Standing Ovations...

http://www.therapidian.org/standing-ovation-Snyder-Grand-Rapids-shows-gross-disconnect-people-Flint

Standing ovation for Snyder in Grand Rapids shows gross disconnect with people of Flint

**Dumpling** · April-01-16, 02:46 AM

From the Free Press:

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/2...isis/82421546/

I'm not sure I buy the idea that a corrosion feeding equipment system had to be
installed in order for the anti-corrosion chemicals to be fed into the Flint water
supply. Theoretically [[though not preferably) one could dispense chemicals from
a tanker truck into the water supply.
It could be that the responsible parties within MDEQ knew that there was no system
in place, but knew that the Emergency Manager wanted to use the Flint River, and
therefore decided to permit the Flint River to be used and to "relax" the regulatory
requirements as needed so it could be used.

**Dumpling** · April-01-16, 03:35 AM

Knowing now that GM employees in Flint tried to condition the Flint river water
to not corrode their parts, but failed to be able to do so before switching back to
DWSD water, my guess is that treating the water correctly was too much of a
challenge, especially when the main goal was to save money by any means
necessary.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-01-16, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by Dumpling

Knowing now that GM employees in Flint tried to condition the Flint river water
to not corrode their parts, but failed to be able to do so before switching back to
DWSD water, my guess is that treating the water correctly was too much of a
challenge, especially when the main goal was to save money by any means
necessary.

Rhetorically satisfying, perhaps, but the main goal was financial stability for a City that was economically collapsing. Flint residents have been suffering under a failing city for years. Snyder made two mistakes. One Pride. He thought he could cross party lines and do something good for Flint. Two:hubris He thought his technocracy could manage Flint's infrastructure.

Neither mistake was just to save money, BAMN. If he wanted to do that, he could have done NOTHING -- and just stopped spending. There were easier ways to save money than trying to fix Flint's dysfunction.

**Dumpling** · April-01-16, 04:30 AM

I recall reading how Ed Kurtz managed to balance Flint's books only just very barely
[[with bitter pills for many - before the water problem popped out like a jack-in-the-box).
He really thought he had everything covered right at that time. He noted that if Flint's
economy got worse they would be right back at square one trying to balance the books
again. To be fair I don't believe either Snyder or Kurtz had in mind to poison babies
in order to balance the books.

**G-DDT** · April-02-16, 12:12 AM

All Malthusian theories and the demographic region of Flint aside, maybe some folks don't intend to poison. Yet, reading Blum's "Poisoner's Handbook", I'm rather disturbed at how many times the issue is brought up off-handedly [[as a footnote) about certain poisonous compounds that other countries banned [[like England or Germany, as far back as the early 20th century), but our country regularly allowed these to be freely used in many commercial and industrial products [[if you don't believe me, read that dang book). We would never want to believe we live under a system that willingly allows poisons like food additives, corn products, sugars, sodium, and extra stimulants to go unchecked in much of our food-yet, they are prominently there [[and that's just for starters).

Remember spying on citizens and drafting into war never provokes Repubs into saying "the Government has gone too far":, but taxation and regulation of corporations and consumer goods for worker/consumer safety will provoke. Poor application of crisis and priority when doing critical comparatives.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-04-16, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by G-DDT

All Malthusian theories and the demographic region of Flint aside, maybe some folks don't intend to poison. Yet, reading Blum's "Poisoner's Handbook", I'm rather disturbed at how many times the issue is brought up off-handedly [[as a footnote) about certain poisonous compounds that other countries banned [[like England or Germany, as far back as the early 20th century), but our country regularly allowed these to be freely used in many commercial and industrial products [[if you don't believe me, read that dang book). We would never want to believe we live under a system that willingly allows poisons like food additives, corn products, sugars, sodium, and extra stimulants to go unchecked in much of our food-yet, they are prominently there [[and that's just for starters).

Remember spying on citizens and drafting into war never provokes Repubs into saying "the Government has gone too far":, but taxation and regulation of corporations and consumer goods for worker/consumer safety will provoke. Poor application of crisis and priority when doing critical comparatives.

G-DDT: We agree on lead levels being too high. Sodium levels is a bit more complex, isn't it? You can't just ban it. Its a basic building block of life. So is sugar. They are not poisons. Do we eat too much? That is not science that is as settled as climate change -- so what we're really debating isn't levels of poison -- but who gets to decide these things.

I can agree that our foods need improvement -- but I don't agree that bureaucrats in Lansing and Washington should be given power to regulate everything. Lead in water? Of course. Sugar in food? Let's stick with a public information campaign and good disclosure.

Back to lead, did anyone else notice that the level of lead in water in the Mother Jones graph has been lower every single day than the day that Rick Snyder took office? The Snyder crime apparently was a small upward blip on what can only be described as a successful decline in lead levels over the past 20 years.

**313WX** · April-07-16, 06:14 PM

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...isis/82701254/

Racketeering suit filed against Snyder in Flint crisis

**313WX** · April-07-16, 06:16 PM

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...suit/82722284/

State claims immunity in Flint class action lawsuit

**313WX** · April-07-16, 06:17 PM

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...erns/82762496/

Calley email dismissed lawmaker’s Flint River claims

**313WX** · April-07-16, 06:18 PM

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...isis/82512884/

Flint reveals it may sue state over water crisis

**313WX** · April-07-16, 07:31 PM

If nothing else, maybe now [[like with Kwame Kilpatrick) they can get Snyder on a Perjury charge...

http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/07/top-house-dem-says-michigan-governor-may-have-lied-during-flint-testimony/

Top House Dem Says Michigan Governor May Have Lied During Flint Testimony

**Wesley Mouch** · April-08-16, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by 313WX

If nothing else, maybe now [[like with Kwame Kilpatrick) they can get Snyder on a Perjury charge...
...

'get Snyder' says it all.

Reading all those posts, 313, I get clearly get the sense that 'getting' Snyder is job #1.

313, why is discussing the state of Flint's leadership for the past few decades not interesting? Even if Snyder poisons and lied, it seems important to me to understand how Flint's infrastructure collapsed. Hint: It wasn't all Snyder.

**Baselinepunk** · April-08-16, 12:59 PM

"313, why is discussing the state of Flint's leadership for the past few decades not interesting? Even if Snyder poisons and lied, it seems important to me to understand how Flint's infrastructure collapsed. Hint: It wasn't all Snyder"

Your poor resaoning fails you yet again, Wes.

Attempting to shift blame from from true causality, you present false equivocation with your "collapsing infrastructure". Those pipes were damaged by poor choices from Flint EM, period.

You should become more familiar with the legal meaning of "... but if for ..".

Try as you might, in the end that is what is going to sink your pals.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-08-16, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Baselinepunk

"313, why is discussing the state of Flint's leadership for the past few decades not interesting? Even if Snyder poisons and lied, it seems important to me to understand how Flint's infrastructure collapsed. Hint: It wasn't all Snyder"

Your poor resaoning fails you yet again, Wes.

Attempting to shift blame from from true causality, you present false equivocation with your "collapsing infrastructure". Those pipes were damaged by poor choices from Flint EM, period.

You should become more familiar with the legal meaning of "... but if for ..".

Try as you might, in the end that is what is going to sink your pals.

You really think it was wine & roses before Snyder tried to help Flint and failed? Even Roger Moore wouldn't agree with that.

Flint was a hellhole for decades. I have watched it decay up close. Snyder was nowhere to be found for 99% of Flint's descent into hell.