While in Flint, Don't drink their water

[Wesley Mouch]

Wesley's own "simplistic, self-validating" partisan politicization aside, Erin Brockovich Explains The Flint Water Crisis.

Thanks for the post. Great interview.

Ms. Brockovich clearly supported my opinion. She cited cities in Ohio, Louisiana, and perhaps in Wisconsin that also have elevated lead levels.

Yes, these states all have Republican governors. So perhaps a for Jindal, Kaisch, and Walker might be next. Partisan debate, or national crisis. You decide.

Ms. Brockovich thinks its not local -- and doesn't play the Party card.

[renf]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...mepage%2Fstory

The legal views expressed in this Washington Post essay suggest that the law suits filed by Flint resident are futile and that neither state official or taxpayers will have to pay damages to the residents of Flint who were harmed by the state's decisions concerning water supply. Sovereign immunity and official immunity seem to imply that the victims will not be compensated.

[Honky Tonk]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...mepage%2Fstory

The legal views expressed in this Washington Post essay suggest that the law suits filed by Flint resident are futile and that neither state official or taxpayers will have to pay damages to the residents of Flint who were harmed by the state's decisions concerning water supply. Sovereign immunity and official immunity seem to imply that the victims will not be compensated.

Let's see....., State Officials, Taxpayers....., State Officials, Taxpayers......, I'm going with Taxpayers.

[oladub]

At 1min41sec in the Erin Brockovitch video-

"The City was having some obvious financial issues and they hired an emergency city manager and they made a decision to switch the water systems..."

The City made the decision? The way she worded it, it sounded like the City made some of the crucial decisions if they refers to the City and the person they hired.

[Shai_Hulud]

At 1min41sec in the Erin Brockovitch video-

"The City was having some obvious financial issues and they hired an emergency city manager and they made a decision to switch the water systems..."

The City made the decision? The way she worded it, it sounded like the City made some of the crucial decisions if they refers to the City and the person they hired.

That stopped me as well. That's a big misunderstanding and it's unfortunate that it was not corrected when so many people will see this. I do understand that part of the issue isn't her bailiwick or concern but that clip may be some people's only exposure to the issue.

[Wesley Mouch]

At 1min41sec in the Erin Brockovitch video-

"The City was having some obvious financial issues and they hired an emergency city manager and they made a decision to switch the water systems..."

The City made the decision? The way she worded it, it sounded like the City made some of the crucial decisions if they refers to the City and the person they hired.

I applaud Ms. B for not joining in with politicizing the actions. She focused on the result.

Nothing wrong with finding bad actors and punishing bad decisions. Here, I think its unlikely that the EM & Snyder forced this decision against the wishes of the City. I'm sure there are legions of people now who will tell you how much they fought this decision -- but I don't believe the risk were that clear cut. Somebody in the city turned the actual value. Somebody was the supervisor of that guy. Somebody in Flint's water board was responsible for water quality. I don't believe that everybody involved had a gun to their heads by the evil EM / Snyder team. Its just too convenient.

This was complex, and Ms. B is right. There's a problem that may be just around the corner for other cities. Somebody elsewhere will make some decision to treat a water problem with something. There was less evil here, and more systemic failure.

[emu steve]

Damning article of how the state of MI made a screw-up of near Biblical proportions.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...isis/80269996/

There were clearly TWO sides to this issue, the U.S. EPA folks who fought hard with the state and the state officials who fought them tooth and nail...

Reminds me of an example where a doctor might say to a patient, 'take your blood pressure medicine or else...' and the patient says, "I feel okay, I don't want no side effects."

This is pretty close to 'black and white'. The whole article suggests both sides [[EPA Del Toral and various State of MI officials) took completely opposite positions apparently with tension.

And when that happens, usually one side will be proven right and one side wrong. This doesn't seem like a 'gray issue' where one sides can wordsmith their way out with some spin...

[emu steve]

Bad, bad stories continue to flow [[bad pun) out of Flint and again state government is getting blamed, this time over its lack of cooperation with CDC over the legionnaires deaths.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/12/us/fli...res/index.html

[canuck]

Damning article of how the state of MI made a screw-up of near Biblical proportions.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...isis/80269996/

There were clearly TWO sides to this issue, the U.S. EPA folks who fought hard with the state and the state officials who fought them tooth and nail...

Reminds me of an example where a doctor might say to a patient, 'take your blood pressure medicine or else...' and the patient says, "I feel okay, I don't want no side effects."

This is pretty close to 'black and white'. The whole article suggests both sides [[EPA Del Toral and various State of MI officials) took completely opposite positions apparently with tension.

And when that happens, usually one side will be proven right and one side wrong. This doesn't seem like a 'gray issue' where one sides can wordsmith their way out with some spin...

My guess is that on the MI state side, a lot of sleep meds are being prescribed to sleepless individuals, side effects be damned.

[JBMcB]

I've been searching long and hard for what the lead levels in Flint were before the switchover. There was no testing done before the switchover from the University of Virgina. Someone from Mother Jones helpfully found the data from MDHHS and compiled it. Here's the chart:



And the article, including original sources and spreadsheet:
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dru...ing-kids-flint

tl;dr version: The increase of lead levels in children likely caused by the water switchover was roughly equivalent to the regular lead levels in children in the 2008-2010 time frame, and much less than before that time period.

Interesting...

[313WX]

Well geez, Leadgate is getting bigger than Watergate at this point.

At this rate, the court system will be forced to shut down for a while as they take the time to criminally charge and indict all of these horrible, condescending, calloused people involved by first negligently breaking federal law by not properly treating the water and then covering it up.

And sadly, I will now have to stop shopping at Meijer [[despite their addicting Oatmeal cookies). I'll probably end up sending an email to the company saying as much also.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...lint/81070020/

Flint filter donations last year coincide with lead worry

The e-mails released over the weekend also identify the mystery donors who quietly provided 1,500 water filters to Flint in the summer of 2015, while the state was publicly saying the water was safe to drink. The filter donors were Meijer and Clorox, the records show.

Meijer, Inc., whose co-CEO Mark Murray is a former state treasurer, agreed to anonymously provide the filters, and Meijer recruited Clorox as a silent partner donor, according to e-mails released late Saturday. California-based Clorox distributes water filters through its Brita division.

[michmina]

I said earlier that I was less interested in punishing than I am in fixing the problem. I'd say now the 2 are equal for me. I should have known this was bigger than originally portrayed - I think I was trying to be optimistic.

[313WX]

I said earlier that I was less interested in punishing than I am in fixing the problem. I'd say now the 2 are equal for me. I should have known this was bigger than originally portrayed - I think I was trying to be optimistic.

That was my opinion from day one. Primarily, the only ones who are saying otherwise are either extreme Snyder "can do no wrong" apologists or Snyder and his immediate staff themselves. And of course, delaying their punishment is in their best interest, because it's their hope that people with time will eventually forget all about the lives they've ruined and they'll walk away scott-free.

If no one is punished for this crisis, human nature dictates leaders in the future will again try to get away with with similar incidents knowing there will be no repercussions.

[Dumpling]

You can still shop at the Detroit Meijer if you like. It was partially funded by money
from the Detroit pension funds; $28 million, according to the following:

http://blog.thedetroithub.com/2012/0...me-to-detroit/

Though Meijer is a west Michigan firm, under conservative Republican management
no doubt, they are like Starbucks in that their bottom line is much better in a healthy
economy. Just try to buy healthy food when you shop there and everything will
be all right. [[I no longer work for the City of Detroit but am vested in the pension
fund).

[Wesley Mouch]

I've been searching long and hard for what the lead levels in Flint were before the switchover. There was no testing done before the switchover from the University of Virgina. Someone from Mother Jones helpfully found the data from MDHHS and compiled it. Here's the chart:



...

So the obvious question is, why did the lead level increase BEFORE the switch to Flint River water. Children were showing increase lead levels about 6-9 months BEFORE Flint River water could have been the cause. Looks like about July 2013 something happened. What?

[bust]

So the obvious question is, why did the lead level increase BEFORE the switch to Flint River water. Children were showing increase lead levels about 6-9 months BEFORE Flint River water could have been the cause. Looks like about July 2013 something happened. What?

Testing was not continuous. It was done at each point there is an inflection in the graph. Notice how an infection point occurs in each line at exactly the same x-axis positions, left to right? The lines merely connect the dots.

A test was done in mid-2013. It looks like the next test was done in mid-2015. Hard to say, but the red line may indicate there was another test about mid-2014. I'm guessing that's the case, since it appears tests were conducted annually. Whatever caused the higher rate of lead poisoning occurred between mid-2013 and either of those dates [[whichever it is). Likewise whatever remediated the problem occurred between mid-2015 and early 2016. That's the correct way to read this graph.

The lines between the dots help illustrate the trend, but the actual data would be much more clear if the graph only showed the dots. Your misinterpretation is understandable.

I hope that helps!

[Wesley Mouch]

Testing was not continuous. It was done at each point there is an inflection in the graph. Notice how an infection point occurs in each line at exactly the same x-axis positions, left to right? The lines merely connect the dots.

A test was done in mid-2013. It looks like the next test was done in mid-2015. Hard to say, but the red line may indicate there was another test about mid-2014. I'm guessing that's the case, since it appears tests were conducted annually. Whatever caused the higher rate of lead poisoning occurred between mid-2013 and either of those dates [[whichever it is). Likewise whatever remediated the problem occurred between mid-2015 and early 2016. That's the correct way to read this graph.

The lines between the dots help illustrate the trend, but the actual data would be much more clear if the graph only showed the dots. Your misinterpretation is understandable.

I hope that helps!

Thank you. Its hard to see the inflection points, and after all that's what's of interest in Flint.

What's good to see is that the problem of lead has really been seriously addressed in Flint over the last couple decades. This will be a positive for Flint for years to come.

[313WX]

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2016/0...s-clean-water/

‘Dirty deal:’ Gov. Snyder’s team blocked Flint from returning to Detroit’s clean water

Months after Gov. Rick Snyder’s inner circle warned of grave health dangers of the Flint River, the administration blocked Flint from returning to Detroit’s water in April, new records show.

Once again, the issue came down to money – not the health of Flint’s residents.

At issue is a $7 million state loan agreement that included a provision prohibiting the city of Flint from returning to Detroit’s clean water without the approval of the state treasurer, according to records obtained by the Michigan Democratic Party.

Treasurer Nick Khouri wouldn’t give the approval.

What’s worse, records obtained by Motor City Muckraker show an engineering firm hired by the state’s Department of Treasury released a study in February 2013 that expressed concerns about the financial and operational risks of building the KWA pipeline, which had already cost 24% more than originally projected, and that’s not including anticipated cost overruns in the future.

Additional e-mail records show that then-Treasurer Andy Dillon alerted the governor’s office that it was risky to use the Flint River.

“As you will see, [[the consultants) are recommending that Flint stay with DWSD,” Dillon said in an e-mail to Snyder. “This has ramifications that merit further discussion.”

[313WX]

http://www.progressmichigan.org/2016/03/39021/


EMAIL: Snyder Knew About Flint Water Crisis in February 2015, Email Not Released to Public on January 20


LANSING — An email sent by Governor Rick Snyder shows that he planned to discuss “Flint water” with top staffers in February 2015 — nearly nine months before the governor claims to have known about a water crisis in Flint.


The message was sent on February 17, 2015 to the Rick for Michigan campaign email account — rather than the official state email account — of Allison Scott, the executive director to the governor, and shows that Rick Snyder wanted to personally discuss the “Flint water” situation with top officials in his administration, among other issues. The email seems to be proof that Gov. Snyder lied each and every time he claimed that his staff never brought the crisis to him and that it was not on his radar.

[Wesley Mouch]

http://www.progressmichigan.org/2016/03/39021/


EMAIL: Snyder Knew About Flint Water Crisis in February 2015, Email Not Released to Public on January 20

LANSING — An email sent by Governor Rick Snyder shows that he planned to discuss “Flint water” with top staffers in February 2015 — nearly nine months before the governor claims to have known about a water crisis in Flint.

The message was sent on February 17, 2015 to the Rick for Michigan campaign email account — rather than the official state email account — of Allison Scott, the executive director to the governor, and shows that Rick Snyder wanted to personally discuss the “Flint water” situation with top officials in his administration, among other issues. The email seems to be proof that Gov. Snyder lied each and every time he claimed that his staff never brought the crisis to him and that it was not on his radar.

... or it might instead be proof that Snyder is a good manager.

Would you have preferred a governor who didn't ask his staff/subordinates about things?

Of course it is possible that this was a giant cover-up, and Snyder is a goat. But if Snyder did ask about water issues in Flint, it doesn't mean anything. I would expect him to inquire. Apparently the answer he got was "all is well down here". Because if he got a whiff of what really seemed to be happening, he would not have sat on his hands.

btw, I think Snyder caused the toxic moss in Portland OR. And he's kept quiet about it. Until we find an email.

[401don]

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...16274245,d.amc

300 Billion? If that's anywhere near correct it would be far cheaper just to close the entire city and bulldoze it like Love Canal.

[Jimaz]

300 Billion? If that's anywhere near correct it would be far cheaper just to close the entire city and bulldoze it like Love Canal.

More than 6 million lead service lines exist across the country, according to estimates cited by Fitch. Many of these are located in the Northeast, Midwest and older urban areas.

"We believe the capital costs to replace these lines could exceed $275 billion," Fitch said.

The EPA's latest survey estimated the entire sector needs $385 billion in water infrastructure improvements through 2030, and this estimate includes the costs to only partially replace lead pipes, according to the rating agency.

But is that $300 billion figure for a nationwide fix? [[Heh. Bulldoze the nation.)

Snyder has hired two outside attorneys in connection with the Flint drinking water crisis, including a criminal defense attorney retained to serve as "investigatory counsel," a Snyder spokesman has confirmed.

Ay ay ay!

[401don]

But is that $300 billion figure for a nationwide fix? [[Heh. Bulldoze the nation.)

Ay ay ay!

Oops, that's a dumb Canadian mistake. So many articles here in Canada refer to "U.S. dollars", as in "Blue Jays have to pay their players U.S. $140 million." I read the headline "Flint Crisis Could Cost U.S. $300 Billion" as in 300 billion American dollars.

[417deer]

A countywide property tax vote for Wayne, Oakland and Macomb Counties could be on the ballot to help pay for repairs and costs. What do you think?

[Wesley Mouch]

Snyder poisons Cleveland as well.

CLEVELAND — One hundred fifty miles northwest of here, the residents of Flint, Mich., are still reeling from the drinking water debacle that more than doubled the share of children with elevated levels of lead in their blood — to a peak, in mid-2014, of 7 percent of all children tested.

Clevelanders can only sympathize. The comparable number here is 14.2 percent.

see: NYTimes [[current)