While in Flint, Don't drink their water

[313WX]

Snyder poisons Cleveland as well.



see: NYTimes [[current)

I guess you [[perhaps intentionally?) missed the part in the article where it said that the elevated lead levels in other locales isn't a result of their drinking water...

[Wesley Mouch]

I guess you [[perhaps intentionally?) missed the part in the article where it said that the elevated lead levels in other locales isn't a result of their drinking water...

Are you saying that Cleveland children are less important because their significantly elevated lead levels were not caused by Republicans?

Being well known as a dedicated Snyder apologist, allow me to say that there's nothing about the Flint crisis that couldn't have happened if Bernaro were governor. Nobody saw this problem coming -- Flint River water was their existing [[and presumably) safe backup water supply. This had nothing to do with money. Except in the minds of the politically motivated.

[313WX]

...Bernaro...

Bernero...

[Wesley Mouch]

Bernero...

Thank you very much.

[G-DDT]

So, Snyder basically says "Come at me-fine-but I will make you all pay for it." http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...fund/81641570/$800,000 [[+ more?) of tax payer money for his defense.

Did we expect anything better from a man who defends conservative friends who defend companies who poison society with 5-hour energy?http://www.examiner.com/article/mich...d-drunk-driver

It's as if the powers-that-be snidely state "we do what we are going to do, and there is nothing you the people can do about it."

If we truly had the power, Snyder would be out of office ASAP.

[Richard]

Brewer, who is legal counsel to Progress Michigan, conceded the Michigan Legal Defense Fund Act doesn’t explicitly say that public funds can’t be used to defend a public official in a criminal investigation, but he said that is the premise behind the legislation.

So was Kilpatrick considered a public official?

Politics aside everybody knew before the switch was pulled,from the city to the state including the mayor,that it was a mistake because of the non corrosive additive not being used.

was the hatred for Detroit that bad where it was okay to sacrifice life and limb to be free of that bond?

There is nothing to defend really it should be based on level of accountability and everybody knew of the dangers and still moved forward.So at this point why waste money on legalities,the ones with the best lawyers will be able to buy THIER way out of accountability.

The others will take the fall.

[313WX]

So, Snyder basically says "Come at me-fine-but I will make you all pay for it." http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...fund/81641570/$800,000 [[+ more?) of tax payer money for his defense.

Did we expect anything better from a man who defends conservative friends who defend companies who poison society with 5-hour energy?http://www.examiner.com/article/mich...d-drunk-driver

It's as if the powers-that-be snidely state "we do what we are going to do, and there is nothing you the people can do about it."

If we truly had the power, Snyder would be out of office ASAP.

It was a no-brainer that he and his Ilk would go out Kwame-style.

[313WX]

Now Snyder and his Ilk don't even like free speech.

I'm pretty much at the point where I don't even want to label myself as a resident of Michigan with the sociopaths that are running this place.

http://www.metrotimes.com/Blogs/arch...net-commenters

[brizee]

So the supervisor of the Flint water plant warned they weren't ready and it they proceeded it would not be with his blessing.

Lovely.

And for all the money he's paying PR firms they're not working. He and they look like complete assholes everytime they open their mouth.

This was not a "failure of government at every level" no matter how many times you repeat that lie.

And NO Hillary Clinton is not a magic phrase that absolves you of responsibility.

Can that moderate nonsense [[that has never been true) people liked to call Rick be dead yet.

PS. Speaking of Kwame, contrasting their tribulations and the barely restrained hatred folks held for him...well it's been interesting to observe, the press especially.

[Dumpling]

On March 10 2016 Deadline Detroit noted that ACLU posted a comprehensive
video "Here's To Flint" - it was kind of hard for me to watch the whole thing,
about 45 minutes long [[the length was not the hard part). It's on YouTube.

[Wesley Mouch]

So the supervisor of the Flint water plant warned they weren't ready and it they proceeded it would not be with his blessing.

Lovely.

And for all the money he's paying PR firms they're not working. He and they look like complete assholes everytime they open their mouth.

This was not a "failure of government at every level" no matter how many times you repeat that lie.

And NO Hillary Clinton is not a magic phrase that absolves you of responsibility.

Can that moderate nonsense [[that has never been true) people liked to call Rick be dead yet.

PS. Speaking of Kwame, contrasting their tribulations and the barely restrained hatred folks held for him...well it's been interesting to observe, the press especially.

Simple answers are usually wrong. Simple answer that confirm preconceived notions are the most dangerous.

Those of us who have faith in our systems will just have to wait and see what time tell us about how much Snyder was the single and only bad actor here.

In the meantime, I'd love to hear from brizee how "government at every level" didn't fail Flint. What did the EPA do right?

And as long as I'm at it, do we think that every time a supervisor at a plant says something, its right? Sure, hindsight here supports. But if they were so convinced at the time, why didn't they resign and go to the press. Certainly Michael Moore was ready and just waiting to hear this story as it happened. No, they waiting. Until the book was written. And then arrived to tell us how right they were. Thanks a lot. You sure saved Flint.

[Dumpling]

Let me see if this link works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II2RDarmohw

"Democracy Now" split the ACLU documentary "Here's to Flint" into two
parts. That should be the second part. For those of you who thought that
the Legionnaire's problem was a witch hunt, start watching at about six
minutes. At about six minutes thirty seconds you will see Marc Edwards
doing a hunt for chlorine residual in the tap water in Flint residences.
HE CAN'T FIND ANY CHLORINE IN ANY HOME HE CHECKS. This means
that Legionella or another "Opportunistic Pathogen" can grow in the
plumbing of the residences.
[[One and a half minutes of your time is the easy part.)

[Dumpling]

Over at the Flint Water Study website LeeAnn Walters is giving updates on the
EPA hunt for chlorine residuals in Flint residences:

http://flintwaterstudy.org/category/...-anne-walters/

[Wesley Mouch]

Let me see if this link works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II2RDarmohw

"Democracy Now" split the ACLU documentary "Here's to Flint" into two
parts. That should be the second part. For those of you who thought that
the Legionnaire's problem was a witch hunt, start watching at about six
minutes. At about six minutes thirty seconds you will see Marc Edwards
doing a hunt for chlorine residual in the tap water in Flint residences.
HE CAN'T FIND ANY CHLORINE IN ANY HOME HE CHECKS. This means
that Legionella or another "Opportunistic Pathogen" can grow in the
plumbing of the residences.
[[One and a half minutes of your time is the easy part.)

Legionella, AFAIK, breeds in stagnant water -- usually in exterior air-conditioning water cooling towers, where proper chemical treatment isn't applied. That was the case in Philadelphia where it was discovered and in all cases I've followed. And I did follow as I had responsibility for chemical treatment of cooling towers in the past.

I'm sure, however, that Snyder and Lt. Governor Assad could no doubt find a way to weaponize Legionella for his Flint voter cleaning initiative.

A freep article, after several paragraphs of speculation, quoted: "According to the Genesee County Health Department, people contract Legionnaires’ disease by breathing in a mist or vapor containing the bacteria and can’t get it from drinking water containing Legionella."

I understand that trusting Flint's water department might be like trusting the EPA, but it is as I understand Legionella transmission. See ever-accurate wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionella

Note that Wikipedia'a article does say Chlorine is the best treatment, but immediately talks about treatment of hot water with Chlorine.

[Honky Tonk]

Legionella, AFAIK, breeds in stagnant water -- usually in exterior air-conditioning water cooling towers, where proper chemical treatment isn't applied. That was the case in Philadelphia where it was discovered and in all cases I've followed. And I did follow as I had responsibility for chemical treatment of cooling towers in the past.

I'm sure, however, that Snyder and Lt. Governor Assad could no doubt find a way to weaponize Legionella for his Flint voter cleaning initiative.

A freep article, after several paragraphs of speculation, quoted: "According to the Genesee County Health Department, people contract Legionnaires’ disease by breathing in a mist or vapor containing the bacteria and can’t get it from drinking water containing Legionella."

I understand that trusting Flint's water department might be like trusting the EPA, but it is as I understand Legionella transmission. See ever-accurate wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legionella

Note that Wikipedia'a article does say Chlorine is the best treatment, but immediately talks about treatment of hot water with Chlorine.

I wonder if they can contract it inhaling contaminated water after it's been boiled in a hot water tank and released as a fine vapor/mist during a morning shower?

[Wesley Mouch]

I wonder if they can contract it inhaling contaminated water after it's been boiled in a hot water tank and released as a fine vapor/mist during a morning shower?

What we don't know about the world exceeds what we do know.

Legionella was unknown untiil 1979 -- when it was discovered and thus named because it caused Legionnaires disease. I have never heard of non-stagnant water cases before, but it seems to be possible.

Wikipedia advises that: "It thrives in temperatures between 25 and 45 °C [[77 and 113 °F), with an optimum temperature of 35 °C [[95 °F)." That would typically rule out domestic cold water -- and would be on the edge of domestic hot water temps -- usually 120 or higher. But nothing is usual about Flint these days.

The regulatory failures in Flint would seem to be spectacular, so I wouldn't be shocked to hear that this new path.

btw, interesting that one of the flus caused by Legionella is called Pontiac Fever Yes, that Pontiac.

[Jimaz]

As a former desert rat, it still confounds me that in a region containing 21% of this planet's surface fresh water, how so much contention exists over — water.

I posted this on July-07-14: DetroitYES Home » Discuss Detroit » Canadians Planning to deliver water to Detroiters whose water is shut off » #30

Here's a direct link to the relevant video segment: Dune: Noblesse Oblige

[Wesley Mouch]

As a former desert rat, it still confounds me that in a region containing 21% of this planet's surface fresh water, how so much contention exists over — water.

Jimaz, its not about water. We got water. Its about the social arrangements over how to supply it.

Water is a basic need. How do we organize our social structure to provide it. Now the battles begin.

Why is Detroit's water board the subject of contention? Power, politics, money.

Why is Flint's water crisis important? Power, politics, money.

We all know that water quality is important. Ask yourself why is Flint's crisis the big deal? Why is water quality in Cleveland or San Jose or Newark not an issue this week. Politics. Its a wedge issue that excites the base. Republicans are evil and only care about money, not people. Basically the same as Republicans are cutting school budgets because they want to harm our weakest members.

Democrats need more money poured over cities and labor. This is the perfect issue to paint Republicans as uncaring -- which unfortunately is much too true these days -- but still a political generalization.

[compn]

I wonder if they can contract it inhaling contaminated water after it's been boiled in a hot water tank and released as a fine vapor/mist during a morning shower?

water is only heated to about 120F in a standard residential gas hot water tank.

i'd say probably the same for residential electric hot water heater.

after all , you dont want 212F boiling water coming out of your shower.


you can get legionaires from your shower though. heres a 1990 article on it
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/12/sc...o-showers.html



heres an interesting thing
http://energy.gov/energysaver/projec...ng-temperature
If you have a dishwasher without a booster heater, it may require a water temperature within a range of 130ºF to 140ºF for optimum cleaning. And while there is a very slight risk of promoting legionellae bacteria when hot water tanks are maintained at 120ºF, this level is still considered safe for the majority of the population. If you have a suppressed immune system or chronic respiratory disease, you may consider keeping your hot water tank at 140ºF. However, this high temperature significantly increases the risk of scalding. To minimize this risk, you can install mixing valves or other temperature-regulating devices on any taps used for washing or bathing.


gas water heater tanks can also build sediment on the bottom of the tank [[where the heating occurs) which can make the tank less efficient and also lowering the water temp and providing a possible habitat [[sediment) for bacteria. if you have an old water heater, there is usually a valve to empty the sediment, have a professional check it every 10 years? , as dumping pressurized hot water onto your floor can be dangerous.

[Wesley Mouch]

water is only heated to about 120F in a standard residential gas hot water tank.

i'd say probably the same for residential electric hot water heater.

after all , you dont want 212F boiling water coming out of your shower.


you can get legionaires from your shower though. heres a 1990 article on it
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/12/sc...o-showers.html



heres an interesting thing
http://energy.gov/energysaver/projec...ng-temperature
If you have a dishwasher without a booster heater, it may require a water temperature within a range of 130ºF to 140ºF for optimum cleaning. And while there is a very slight risk of promoting legionellae bacteria when hot water tanks are maintained at 120ºF, this level is still considered safe for the majority of the population. If you have a suppressed immune system or chronic respiratory disease, you may consider keeping your hot water tank at 140ºF. However, this high temperature significantly increases the risk of scalding. To minimize this risk, you can install mixing valves or other temperature-regulating devices on any taps used for washing or bathing.


gas water heater tanks can also build sediment on the bottom of the tank [[where the heating occurs) which can make the tank less efficient and also lowering the water temp and providing a possible habitat [[sediment) for bacteria. if you have an old water heater, there is usually a valve to empty the sediment, have a professional check it every 10 years? , as dumping pressurized hot water onto your floor can be dangerous.

Good info. Thank you. I was surprised to read about Legionella from showers.

[Jimaz]

DetroitYES Home » Non Detroit Issues » Thom Hartmann » Governor Snyder - You Need to Resign!

[Wesley Mouch]

DetroitYES Home » Non Detroit Issues » Thom Hartmann » Governor Snyder - You Need to Resign!

Managerial mistakes are rarely reasons for resignation or recall.

Resignation and recalls are usually political opportunism.

Why no calls for EPA resignations nor for Flint officials who went along including the plant manager who has apparently changed his mind about what he allowed to happen to Flint residents on his watch?

[Whitehouse]

More.


Here's what Snyder will be eating the coming weeks.

[Baselinepunk]

Wikipedia, Wes?

Fucking really?

Figures you live in 2006.

[Dumpling]

I appreciate Wesley Mouch's posting of the Legionella Wikipedia article. Before
reviewing it I did not know that one could contract Legionnaires' from a cooling
tower several kilometers away. That could explain Legionnaires' in persons near
the Flint water system but not a part of it. But, from what Marc Edwards was saying,
it was possible to treat the Flint River water correctly [[Though it was a challenge.
I was unsurprised to hear of elevated total trihalomethanes).

As Wesley Mouch could point out, something was not right even without
considering the Gov. Snyder/Emergency Management part of the problem.
People who work with aquariums, HVAC systems, and plumbing all had
to have been aware of issues at the outset. Aquarists are very aware of
properties of tap water including its chlorine residual, which will kill their
fishes and invertebrates. Flint must have had at least one person with
an MDEQ issued water distribution system license who was checking the
endpoint chlorine residuals at various points in the Flint system, even
before customers were bothered by color and odor issues, even before
lead and Legionnaires' health issues.