Livernois and McNichols

[mwilbert]

One would think that would be the case, however you'd probably be wrong. I've heard from UDM officials that they regularly find their lacrosse goals taken off the fields and leaning up against the fences in the mornings. Keep in mind that lacrosse goals are heavy, 6x6 metal contraptions that take 3 people to carry.

If people can jump the White House fence, the same can be said for UDM.

They don't just have to jump the fence, they have to remove the bikes. I haven't heard about a lot of people jumping the White House fence and stealing stuff. In any case, it would be easy enough to provide secure bike parking if it were desired.

[mwilbert]

I would also note that schools such as Harvard, Yale, and Brown have gates surrounding them too, yet also have thriving student-oriented businesses outside of their respective campuses.

Not really. I've never been to Yale, although I doubt it is true there either, but most Harvard and Brown buildings are outside the gates. In no sense do the fences "surround" the campuses.

[Towne Cluber]

A lacrosse goal is a heck of a lot heavier than a bicycle...so if people are trying to steal those, then a bike would be no problem. The average person could probably throw a lot of the newer types of [[lighter) bicycles over a fence.

True, fences don't surround the entire campuses of Harvard, Yale, and Brown...but they do surround the centers [[original parts) of those campuses, which are all at least the same size as the entire UDM campus.

[Bham1982]

Not really. I've never been to Yale, although I doubt it is true there either, but most Harvard and Brown buildings are outside the gates. In no sense do the fences "surround" the campuses.

Almost all the Harvard College buildings are within the gates. Many of the grad programs are outside, but the heart of the campus is gated. Same goes for Columbia, Yale, and many other urban campuses, yet the gates don't seem to harm vitality outside the gates [[and the gates long precede urban fears of crime).

[archfan]

A lacrosse goal is a heck of a lot heavier than a bicycle...so if people are trying to steal those, then a bike would be no problem. The average person could probably throw a lot of the newer types of [[lighter) bicycles over a fence.
...

If I were looking for who moved the lacrosse goal, I'd look inside the fence.

[mwilbert]

Almost all the Harvard College buildings are within the gates. Many of the grad programs are outside, but the heart of the campus is gated. Same goes for Columbia, Yale, and many other urban campuses, yet the gates don't seem to harm vitality outside the gates [[and the gates long precede urban fears of crime).

Since I know Harvard best, I will point out that among numerous other things, the registrars office, financial office, the bookstore, medical facilities, athletic facilities, almost all the science labs, the art facilities, and a big chunk of the undergraduate dorms are outside the fences. Nor is there any parking inside the fence. A UDM student has almost no reason to walk outside the fence for school-related activities. A Harvard or Brown student has no choice.

[Zacha341]

Perhaps that BK can be converted into yet another marijuana dispensary - maybe drive-thru style...... [[we have a million of them as of late) ala the latest big boom business set in the D!

That abandoned burger king across the street from UDM needs to be razed.

[Towne Cluber]

If I were looking for who moved the lacrosse goal, I'd look inside the fence.

Perhaps you should let UDM Public Safety as well as their Athletic Department know that your finding differs from their investigations.

[Towne Cluber]

Since I know Harvard best, I will point out that among numerous other things, the registrars office, financial office, the bookstore, medical facilities, athletic facilities, almost all the science labs, the art facilities, and a big chunk of the undergraduate dorms are outside the fences. Nor is there any parking inside the fence. A UDM student has almost no reason to walk outside the fence for school-related activities. A Harvard or Brown student has no choice.

The two Harvard bookstores being outside of their fence makes sense, given that they're not owned by the university and open to the public. Their art/museum facilities being outside of the fence also makes sense, given that they're open to the public. The other facilities being outside of the fence makes sense because the school has grown and greatly expanded its footprint since its original confines. A comparison to UDM is that regard isn't reasonable.

There are a number of other smaller private colleges in Boston [[for an urban example) that are also surrounded by a fence. Wheelock, Emmanuel, and Simmons Colleges to name a few. Again, the surrounding areas around those colleges are doing just fine. Closer to home, Marygrove is private and also has a fence. Heck, most high schools campuses these days [[in some cases excluding the parking lot) are surrounded by a fence.

The main points here are that UDM would be worse off without their fence and their fence doesn't have anything to do with causing the surrounding area's decline.

[bust]

There is no perimeter fence around Harvard. There is a fence around Harvard Yard, which must date from the 19th Century, but it has many entrances, and they're unguarded during the day. It's not much of a barrier, and about 80% of the campus is outside.

https://map.harvard.edu/

If you haven't been there in person, at least do a little research before using it as an example. Otherwise you have no basis for opinion.

Meanwhile I don't think it makes any sense to compare U of D and Harvard. They are two very different universities in two very different cities.

I don't know whether the perimeter fence is the right choice for U of D. We'd all be better off if people with little basis for opinion weren't so opinionated, and stuck to what they actually know.

[Towne Cluber]

There is no perimeter fence around Harvard. There is a fence around Harvard Yard, which must date from the 19th Century, but it has many entrances, and they're unguarded during the day. It's not much of a barrier, and about 80% of the campus is outside.

https://map.harvard.edu/

If you haven't been there in person, at least do a little research before using it as an example. Otherwise you have no basis for opinion.

Meanwhile I don't think it makes any sense to compare U of D and Harvard. They are two very different universities in two very different cities.

I don't know whether the perimeter fence is the right choice for U of D. We'd all be better off if people with little basis for opinion weren't so opinionated, and stuck to what they actually know.

You would do well to follow your own advice. I lived [[school/work) in Boston for 5 years, with many visits to the Harvard Campus.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2013/07/g...f-harvard-yard

There's nothing quite like people whom insist on a position to fit their agenda, no matter opinions and evidence to the contrary. Add in the old DetroitYes game of mixing fact and fiction [[or just plain fiction) and providing a link [[that doesn't prove their point and/or is hoped that someone doesn't actually read).

We all love Detroit, but we also have to be honest that the city has major problems that can't be wished away, lied about, nor solved with simple symbolic gestures [[such as removing a fence).

[bust]

You would do well to follow your own advice. I lived [[school/work) in Boston for 5 years, with many visits to the Harvard Campus.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2013/07/g...f-harvard-yard

There's nothing quite like people whom insist on a position to fit their agenda, no matter opinions and evidence to the contrary. Add in the old DetroitYes game of mixing fact and fiction [[or just plain fiction) and providing a link [[that doesn't prove their point and/or is hoped that someone doesn't actually read).

We all love Detroit, but we also have to be honest that the city has major problems that can't be wished away, lied about, nor solved with simple symbolic gestures [[such as removing a fence).

Yes, there is a fence around Harvard Yard. I said that. But that amounts to about 20% of the campus. The purpose of the map was to illustrate that. And the gates are unguarded during the day. I passed through Harvard Yard many times even though I didn't attend there. Only my girlfriend did. And the other 80% of the campus has no fence.

I don't have an agenda here. Perhaps you didn't read all of my comment, or it didn't sink in. I don't think the comparison between U of D and Harvard makes any sense in any case. And I don't have an opinion whether the fence is the right choice for U of D. I said those things too.

Meanwhile, I saw what happened on the bike sharing thread and want no part of that. Let's please keep the conversation productive and respectful. I'll do my part. And I have fond childhood memories of Towne Club soda. Nice moniker.

[Towne Cluber]

I appreciate your call for civility. Likewise, I appreciate that you bring some first-hand perspective to the discussion. I would point out that Radcliffe Yard [[another "original part of campus", as it was its own separate school at one time) has gates as well. There are some other gates and walls mixed in throughout campus -- but as the university has expanded within the city blocks itself -- most of it is without barriers.

[bust]

I appreciate your call for civility. Likewise, I appreciate that you bring some first-hand perspective to the discussion. I would point out that Radcliffe Yard [[another "original part of campus", as it was its own separate school at one time) has gates as well. There are some other gates and walls mixed in throughout campus -- but as the university has expanded within the city blocks itself -- most of it is without barriers.

I'm glad we worked that out. I didn't intend to direct my initial opinion specifically at you in the first place, although I can see why you took it that way. I could have picked a better choice of words. And I count myself among those who should withhold my opinion when I have only weak evidence to support it. Usually I do.

I hope the best for U of D and the neighborhood around it. I haven't been by there since a long time ago.

I know there have been positive developments in the University District recently. I also remember there was a neighborhood of solid homes East of the University. And the scale of the place seemed well-suited for fostering community. Is that area called Martin Park? It would be great to hear some good news from there too. Or any news.

Meanwhile I was surprised to hear from someone who graduated from U of D Law that he attended all his classes downtown. I can understand how classes downtown would be appealing. The particular person I met was from a small town in another state, and I'm sure he felt more comfortable there. How long has the Law School been there? Does the University have any more plans to migrate downtown? That wouldn't bode well for their traditional home.

[JenniferL]

I'm curious. What part of that walk do you think would be scary in the daytime? For me, the scariest part of that walk would be crossing 8 mile, because I wouldn't bother crossing at a light.

I've never walked from Ferndale to U of D, but I ride my bike there occasionally. You're right about crossing 8 Mile being the scariest part of the trip-- and I always cross at the light. I don't go there at night, though. I don't walk or ride my bike anywhere alone at night, not even in the "nice" suburbs.

[professorscott]

Meanwhile I was surprised to hear from someone who graduated from U of D Law that he attended all his classes downtown. I can understand how classes downtown would be appealing. The particular person I met was from a small town in another state, and I'm sure he felt more comfortable there. How long has the Law School been there? Does the University have any more plans to migrate downtown? That wouldn't bode well for their traditional home.

U of D Law School has always been downtown. U of D per se was just east of downtown from its inception in 1877 until it migrated most parts of itself to the Livernois-McNichols location in the mid 1920s. The evening college of Business and Administration remained downtown until the 1980s or 1990s. So far as I know, it has never been possible for a law student to take any courses anyplace except the downtown Law School location.

[Towne Cluber]

UDM's Dental School is also downtown [[in Corktown since 2008).

Sure, it would be nice if the entire university was located on one big contiguous campus but its not a deal-breaker. Heck even Harvard's campus is spread out between Cambridge [[main), Boston [[Med School), and Allston [[expansion of some Athletics, Business, Sciences, Housing, etc.).

[masterblaster]

It's a suburban neighborhood. There are apartment buildings in NW Detroit, but they are generally postwar, garden-style buildings, further west, along Greenfield and near Telegraph. I doubt there would be many in proximity to UDM or Marygrove, and it isn't clear why they would need such housing, given that both schools are underenrolled and have excess on-campus capacity.

The Palmer Park Apartments District, which is about a mile away.

Plus there are many streets with predominantly 2 family flats [[with 2 bd/1 bath units) within walking distance to the campus, such as:

Baylis Street in Martin Park
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4142...8i6656!6m1!1e1

Monica Street in Bagley
https://www.google.com/maps/place/W+...4b6023!6m1!1e1

And concerning your quip about the neighborhood being suburban, how many suburbs have streetwalls like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4171...8i6656!6m1!1e1

[DetroitBoy]

I'm glad we worked that out. I didn't intend to direct my initial opinion specifically at you in the first place, although I can see why you took it that way. I could have picked a better choice of words. And I count myself among those who should withhold my opinion when I have only weak evidence to support it. Usually I do.

I hope the best for U of D and the neighborhood around it. I haven't been by there since a long time ago.

I know there have been positive developments in the University District recently. I also remember there was a neighborhood of solid homes East of the University. And the scale of the place seemed well-suited for fostering community...

Yeah, positive developments like a judge getting shot outside his own home by some hoodlum in March. Keep your fond memories of the area intact. It's ghetto now and no PR campaign can wash away the rampant crime.

[mwilbert]

Yeah, positive developments like a judge getting shot outside his own home by some hoodlum in March. Keep your fond memories of the area intact. It's ghetto now and no PR campaign can wash away the rampant crime.

I guess you are entitled to your idea of what constitutes "ghetto", but I don't really think the University District qualifies, despite the fact that it isn't free of crime. I'm not aware of a PR campaign, but if there is one I hope it isn't promoting unrealistic expectations about that--it's a nice place to live, and reasonably safe, but it isn't hermetically sealed off from the problems of the city, and sometimes bad things happen, as in the case of the judge you mention.

[bust]

Yeah, positive developments like a judge getting shot outside his own home by some hoodlum in March. Keep your fond memories of the area intact. It's ghetto now and no PR campaign can wash away the rampant crime.

I have no illusions about crime in Detroit. But one story does not a full picture paint. More recently than March, a man was shot in Macomb Township yesterday, and another was killed in Livonia -- but I wouldn't think twice before visiting.

I live within walking distance from where the senior aide to New York's Governor Cuomo was shot in Brooklyn yesterday. Even closer, there has been a rash of shootings two blocks from my home this summer [[even while crime in New York was the lowest this summer in decades). My wife was witness to a murder in Manhattan a few years ago. In a neighborhood where today if your grand kids visited New York they'd head to drink. Our building was broken into last summer. The police came and failed to clear him from the downstairs apartment, and the burglar finished robbing it after they left. I was held up at gunpoint in Philadelphia. Also in Philadelphia, I was jumped by three guys and hit over the head with a 2x4. That was before I got them to apologize. And I stopped two crackheads from breaking into my nearby apartment in the middle of the night. Yet I'd still live there. In fact that neighborhood has improved dramatically since then. High among the reasons, but certainly not the only explanation: I credit a drop in popularity of crack cocaine.

Back to Detroit, it seems that Palmer Woods, Sherwood Forest, and the University District have all been significantly improving lately. I say this based on the entire collection of anecdotes I've heard, cross-referenced with real estate valuations. I hope next in line are Bagley and Martin Park -- if that's the right name for the neighborhood East of the University. A quick cruise on Street View shows that Martin Park is still still an intact neighborhood of great homes, even while it seems more precarious because the neighborhood to the South seems very dangerous, day or night. Of course plenty of people do rest their heads there. And I'm not going on any good first hand information.

So if you have any informative facts or first hand specifics, please share. I don't know the area, but it reminds me of other neighborhoods in other cities I'm familiar with that were formerly ravaged by crime, had good housing stock and some other nice amenities, and have recently become prime areas. Not everyone wants or needs a mansion like you can find in Palmer Woods, Boston-Edison, and Indian Village. That's why adjacent neighborhoods with homes for middle and upper-middle class people are so important too.

If you take away anything from my comment, I hope it's that rampant crime can go away. It takes work, optimism, and a confluence of other factors. Writing off the neighborhood doesn't help.

[Bham1982]

There is no perimeter fence around Harvard. There is a fence around Harvard Yard, which must date from the 19th Century, but it has many entrances, and they're unguarded during the day. It's not much of a barrier, and about 80% of the campus is outside.


If you haven't been there in person, at least do a little research before using it as an example. Otherwise you have no basis for opinion.

People just flat out make up stuff on D-Yes. Here's a perfect example. And I love the pulling of the Harvard card, as if Harvard affiliation trumps the ability of any idiot to Google streetview the campus.

If there's no fence at Harvard, or Columbia, or Yale, then there's none at U of D either. It's all in our imagination. Google streetview must be lying. I spent a semester at Harvard and walked through these imaginary gates at least twice a day, headed to Gund Hall.

The entire old campus is gated. Nothing new is gated, because obviously you can place buildings on top of each other; they go on available space. But Harvard [[and Yale and Columbia and many others) were built as totally gated campuses, with only the newer buildings beyond the gates, and this was done long before security concerns. Harvard Square is possibly the liveliest neighborhood in Mass despite this alleged impediment [[and Morningside Heights is probably the liveliest neighborhood in Upper Manhattan despite the gates).

[Bham1982]

The Palmer Park Apartments District, which is about a mile away.

Plus there are many streets with predominantly 2 family flats [[with 2 bd/1 bath units) within walking distance to the campus, such as:

Baylis Street in Martin Park
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4142...8i6656!6m1!1e1

Monica Street in Bagley
https://www.google.com/maps/place/W+...4b6023!6m1!1e1

And concerning your quip about the neighborhood being suburban, how many suburbs have streetwalls like this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4171...8i6656!6m1!1e1

None of this is representative of the area in question. You're cherry-picking, hence the disagreement.

If you seek to cherry-pick, you can easily argue that Northville is more urban than NYC. Just pick the downtown Northville intersection and compare to a wooded lot in the south Shore of Staten Island.

In the real world, the U of D neighborhood, and the University District, are suburban in nature, and not typified by multifamily housing, pedestrian oriented retail or apartment blocks.

[Bham1982]

I have no illusions about crime in Detroit. But one story does not a full picture paint. More recently than March, a man was shot in Macomb Township yesterday, and another was killed in Livonia -- but I wouldn't think twice before visiting.

Probably because anecdotes don't trump data.

There are people killed in Switzerland, and people killed in Syria. There is no geography on earth without killings. That doesn't mean that all areas have the same level of relative risk.

[dtowncitylover]

People just flat out make up stuff on D-Yes. Here's a perfect example. And I love the pulling of the Harvard card, as if Harvard affiliation trumps the ability of any idiot to Google streetview the campus.

If there's no fence at Harvard, or Columbia, or Yale, then there's none at U of D either. It's all in our imagination. Google streetview must be lying. I spent a semester at Harvard and walked through these imaginary gates at least twice a day, headed to Gund Hall.

The entire old campus is gated. Nothing new is gated, because obviously you can place buildings on top of each other; they go on available space. But Harvard [[and Yale and Columbia and many others) were built as totally gated campuses, with only the newer buildings beyond the gates, and this was done long before security concerns. Harvard Square is possibly the liveliest neighborhood in Mass despite this alleged impediment [[and Morningside Heights is probably the liveliest neighborhood in Upper Manhattan despite the gates).

Says the guy who makes up stuff all the time.

I think you're playing semantics with what "gates" mean. UDM is surrounded by a FENCE because the area is high crime, no one is disputing that. And while I've been to Columbia's campus, but not Harvard or Yale campus', it seems to me their gates are used for aesthetic purposes as well as security purposes. These colleges are located in very urban areas. Students and locals are almost forced to live together and they do. UDM, though while in a city, is farther from true urbanity and unfortunately needed the fence to keep crime away. Columbia, Harvard, and Yale aren't SURROUNDED by fences and most of their buildings are easily accessible to the public. The cities of NYC, Cambridge, and New Haven would have some serious words if they were. I cannot walk up to a building on UDM's campus like I can at the three Ivy League schools I mentioned.