Livernois and McNichols

[mwilbert]

Let's say the population of Detroit in 2000 was 1 million. Let's say it is now 700K. Let's say the population mix of Detroit proper has remained constant at 85% black.

Please identify which suburbs of Detroit have grown by 300K black people, since 2000, to support your assertion that everyone, or even most, have stayed here.

Let me do something easier. According to the Census, in 2000 the black population of the Detroit-Warren-Livonia MSA was just over 1 million [[1,012,262) In 2010 the black population of the same Census MSA was 1,017,405. Wherever the blacks who left the city went, there wasn't any significant net out-migration of blacks from the metro area. Since I doubt there was a lot of in-migration, almost all of those people had to be relocating within the metro area.

[mwilbert]

Bring back the Varsity Theatre, although Ray36 and I are probably the only ones who remember it. Great little place.

I remember it, but neighborhood movie theatres aren't really a thing anymore. I was sad when it was demolished though--what is there now is fast food places and parking. I also used to bowl at Varsity Lanes, which is long-gone although it lasted a lot longer than the theatre.

[softailrider]

Bring back the Varsity Theatre, although Ray36 and I are probably the only ones who remember it. Great little place.

Bring back the Royal [[seven mile) and the Mercury [[Schaefer) while you're at it.

[swede1934]

Does anyone have any info on Gesu Church and school? I attended Mass there many years ago, and have not been back since. Just wondering.

[Parkguy]

If Dan Gilbert and his Quicken Loan Gang decided they want to create exotic businesses and rehab Detroit dwellings. He will do it by any means necessary. It the end, property values will go up, landlords will have raise the rent and low-income folks will have to move out.

I have asked myself the same question. Here are a couple of ideas:

1. Lots of people are living in their brother-in-law's basement. I mean a LOT. I wouldn't even be surprised to find out that the population of Detroit is actually much higher than 700,000, since plenty of people would have held back census data that showed that multiple families were living in one house. I see it on my block, and I see it in my family.

2. Apartment rents rose during the recession [[that is assuming that Michigan is actually OUT of the recession), and have stayed on the high end. This reflects a high demand for rental units. Rent is still cheap compared to other cities in most of Detroit, but it is high for this region.

I take a different view of where we are than most people. If you look downtown and the other hot areas, I think what you see happening is what is happening all across the nation. Central cities are becoming more expensive, gentrified, and exclusive. The pattern is the same, but it is hidden in the "narrative" people have about what they think is happening in Detroit. As much as people talk about schools and crime and taxes, Detroit is going through the same thing other cities are going through: gaining gentrification, pushing out less-wealthy to the suburbs. Like every other change in Detroit, it was slow to start, but once it really gets moving, our heads will spin.

[Bham1982]

Let's say the population of Detroit in 2000 was 1 million. Let's say it is now 700K. Let's say the population mix of Detroit proper has remained constant at 85% black.

Please identify which suburbs of Detroit have grown by 300K black people, since 2000, to support your assertion that everyone, or even most, have stayed here.

Practically every suburb in Metro Detroit has seen a significant increase in black population.

Off the top of my head, there are very visible increases in my neck of the woods in Farmington Hills, Troy, West Bloomfield, Wixom, Walled Lake, Livonia, Hazel Park, Madison Heights, Warren, Auburn Hills. It would probably be easier to name the few suburbs that haven't had a large increase in African American population.

West Bloomfield will probably be a majority black suburb in a generation or so. If you suggested this 20 years ago you would be laughed out of town.

Even random outer suburbs now have visible black populations. Twenty years ago you basically would have zero black population somewhere like Rochester Hills, Clarkston, Lake Orion, South Lyon, Northville, etc. Now these areas are often 5-10% black, at least at the school level. There are very few suburban areas that don't have some reasonable measure of diversity these days.

[professorscott]

[QUOTE=Bham1982;487878]It's sometimes like DYes exists in an alternate universe, where facts are of no consequence.QUOTE]

Yes, like the notion that college students are going to walk three miles to go to lunch or to shop. And having a bicycle is tricky; for one thing, where do you keep it? Dorm rooms, at UDM and everywhere, are small, and a bike takes up a chunk of space. There aren't bike lockers, and if you keep it outside overnight, I promise you it won't be there when you get up in the morning.

It wouldn't be difficult, in any rational urban area, to have a bus line to connect a college campus to its nearest decent-size retail and restaurant area, but in Detroit it is effing impossible.

[Chris Rohn]

UDM could make an immediate impact by removing the fence and restoring the streets through campus.

Yes, there is advantage to offering "security" in the recruiting process, but until the fence is down and students can actually cross Livernois in more than one spot, nobody is going to open a business along that stretch.

As long as that fence is around campus, there will always be the implication that you are "safe" inside, and there is "danger" outside.

Part of what makes Wayne State so successful today is its re-integration with the city fabric over the last 15-20 years. UDM can do the same.

[DetroitBoy]

UDM could make an immediate impact by removing the fence and restoring the streets through campus.

Yes, there is advantage to offering "security" in the recruiting process, but until the fence is down and students can actually cross Livernois in more than one spot, nobody is going to open a business along that stretch.

As long as that fence is around campus, there will always be the implication that you are "safe" inside, and there is "danger" outside.

Part of what makes Wayne State so successful today is its re-integration with the city fabric over the last 15-20 years. UDM can do the same.

The reason the fence is there is BECAUSE IT IS SAFER INSIDE than in the ghetto neighborhood surrounding the campus. Enrollment went up after the campus was secured. Florence Street was a huge risk to the safety of dorm students when it was open. I would not recommend jeopardizing the safety of the students for the sake of another attempt at revitalizing the neighborhood. Clean up the space around the campus and you will have business from it.

The University's responsibility is first and foremost to their students and their safety and welfare will always come first. If you want to go to public school, Wayne State is down the street. U of DM is private and has no need for people not affiliated with the university to be on its campus.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

As for the street scape, well, they've been digging up the ill-advised median and landscaping all spring and summer, only 5 years after putting it in. I guess they forgot lighting.

Livernois as it is now, is relatively desolate on the west side all the way from the Lodge to Curtis. The east side fares a little better. It would be nice to see that area W of Livernois to Marygrove look like something, then again, it took 30 years to look like it does now.

Keep concentrating on the 7 Mile / Livernois area, which looks so much better than even 4 years ago. If University District is able to stop the bleeding, that neighborhood has some of the most affordable beautiful housing stock in the city, are slightly smaller and newer than Boston Edison, and relatively close to Woodward. The latest round of foreclosures here last fall/winter/spring has kept prices relatively deflated. Parts of Parkside and Wildemere are looking a little rough around the edges.

You say "stop the bleeding" in the U district, What do you mean by that? There are some beautiful homes there, a uncle of mine lives there. Are foreclosures and empty homes on the rise or what?

[paulj313]

The reason the fence is there is BECAUSE IT IS SAFER INSIDE than in the ghetto neighborhood surrounding the campus. Enrollment went up after the campus was secured. Florence Street was a huge risk to the safety of dorm students when it was open. I would not recommend jeopardizing the safety of the students for the sake of another attempt at revitalizing the neighborhood. Clean up the space around the campus and you will have business from it.

The University's responsibility is first and foremost to their students and their safety and welfare will always come first. If you want to go to public school, Wayne State is down the street. U of DM is private and has no need for people not affiliated with the university to be on its campus.

And how's UDM's isolation working out for them exactly? I just graduated high school, and most people, if they decide to stay around, would much rather go to Wayne than UDM. Their campus is depressing and dead. The isolation isn't making things any better.

[Towne Cluber]

And how's UDM's isolation working out for them exactly? I just graduated high school, and most people, if they decide to stay around, would much rather go to Wayne than UDM. Their campus is depressing and dead. The isolation isn't making things any better.

UDM is a relatively small [[compared to other D-1), private, religious-affiliated, expensive school. Apples and oranges to try to compare it to WSU.

Furthermore, some parts of UDM's campus are more aesthetically pleasing than WSU, so depressing is a relative term.

I would also note that schools such as Harvard, Yale, and Brown have gates surrounding them too, yet also have thriving student-oriented businesses outside of their respective campuses.

[DetroitBoy]

UDM is a relatively small [[compared to other D-1), private, religious-affiliated, expensive school. Apples and oranges to try to compare it to WSU.

Furthermore, some parts of UDM's campus are more aesthetically pleasing than WSU, so depressing is a relative term.

I would also note that schools such as Harvard, Yale, and Brown have gates surrounding them too, yet also have thriving student-oriented businesses outside of their respective campuses.

This is true. All these schools are gated as are most private schools. If you want to go cheap, WSU is the choice not U-DM. The graduate programs there are highly selective, expensive and attract a higher caliber of student than WSU.

[Danny]

Does anyone have any info on Gesu Church and school? I attended Mass there many years ago, and have not been back since. Just wondering.

Yes, Gesu School and Catholic Church is still going strong today. It's members and generations of their families [[ including folks from mostly Oakland County Suburbs ) still attend their masses there. Students coming from generations of God-fearing Catholic Christians still attend that school. The School will not close anytime soon.

[hybridy]

And how's UDM's isolation working out for them exactly? I just graduated high school, and most people, if they decide to stay around, would much rather go to Wayne than UDM. Their campus is depressing and dead. The isolation isn't making things any better.

UDM's campus is much improved over its condition upon my arrival 12 yrs ago. All the academic buildings have seen improvements, the union and dorms have been renovated among new athletic building and various sports fields + lacrosse/track. Its environs south of mcnichols outside the gates leave much to be desired, but their admissions and academic rankings have consistently trended up. Try not being an ignorant slut Dwight...proud MArch '08

[Hypestyles]

I'd also like to see Livernois/Grand River/I-96 area spruced up with more new businesses and services.

[mwilbert]

Yes, like the notion that college students are going to walk three miles to go to lunch or to shop. And having a bicycle is tricky; for one thing, where do you keep it? Dorm rooms, at UDM and everywhere, are small, and a bike takes up a chunk of space. There aren't bike lockers, and if you keep it outside overnight, I promise you it won't be there when you get up in the morning.

It wouldn't be difficult, in any rational urban area, to have a bus line to connect a college campus to its nearest decent-size retail and restaurant area, but in Detroit it is effing impossible.

Aside from the fact that access to the UDM campus at night is in fact rather restricted and probably would protect a bike locked in a rack overnight reasonably well, I imagine it would be a lot easier to put up some bike lockers or a locked group bike storage area than to get transit to Ferndale running. This comment was in the context of a theoretical UDM that would have more residential students and providing them with options for getting to amenities--the students going there now mostly have to have cars, and can drive to Ferndale if they want. Having lived for a long time in Cambridge and Boston, I know that college students in other places have bikes and will ride three miles to get someplace they want to go, even if transit is available, because bikes are usually faster door-to-door at that distance. I agree that people aren't going to walk three miles routinely, but that isn't something impossible either.

[JenniferL]

I'm not much of a fan of Dollar Tree and that type of store, but a nice tidy and well landscaped CVS or Tim Hortons or Chase Bank? What's wrong with that? I think providing basic retail and services for the surrounding area is the first step. Attracting folks from outside the area is of less importance for a neighborhood retail district.

Further up Livernois, perhaps things could once again be a bit more upscale or unique.

Yeah, people who actually live in a neighborhood are going to patronize a CVS or a bank or a Tim Horton's more often than a pricy restaurant or a store that sells expensive watches. When I look at a neighborhood as a potential place to buy a home, I am more interested in where I'm going to buy my groceries than in hipster tourist attractions.

[Bham1982]

UDM could make an immediate impact by removing the fence and restoring the streets through campus.

LOL. U-D would have probably closed down, or would have moved to the suburbs, if that fence were never built. That is an extremely high crime neighborhood south of McNichols, even for Detroit standards. Students/faculty/staff had been frequent crime victims. Even now the school struggles to maintain enrollment.

Part of what makes Wayne State so successful today is its re-integration with the city fabric over the last 15-20 years. UDM can do the same.

Wayne State isn't "so successful today". If anything it has lost ground relative to other major research universities over the past few decades. Most universities have become a ton more selective over the decades, Wayne hasn't really followed that path. And a university's relative success has almost nothing to do with local urban planning issues.

And Wayne never "reintegrated with the city fabric". It was never fenced off from the city in the first place. The built environment in/around Wayne hasn't changed much in our lifetimes, besides becoming somewhat more sparse over time.

[Towne Cluber]

Aside from the fact that access to the UDM campus at night is in fact rather restricted and probably would protect a bike locked in a rack overnight reasonably well...

One would think that would be the case, however you'd probably be wrong. I've heard from UDM officials that they regularly find their lacrosse goals taken off the fields and leaning up against the fences in the mornings. Keep in mind that lacrosse goals are heavy, 6x6 metal contraptions that take 3 people to carry.

If people can jump the White House fence, the same can be said for UDM.

[softailrider]

Aside from the fact that access to the UDM campus at night is in fact rather restricted and probably would protect a bike locked in a rack overnight reasonably well, I imagine it would be a lot easier to put up some bike lockers or a locked group bike storage area than to get transit to Ferndale running. This comment was in the context of a theoretical UDM that would have more residential students and providing them with options for getting to amenities--the students going there now mostly have to have cars, and can drive to Ferndale if they want. Having lived for a long time in Cambridge and Boston, I know that college students in other places have bikes and will ride three miles to get someplace they want to go, even if transit is available, because bikes are usually faster door-to-door at that distance. I agree that people aren't going to walk three miles routinely, but that isn't something impossible either.

Not impossible but pretty close. Part of that walk from U of D to Ferndale might be considered scary even in the daytime. At night or during the Winter forget it, it just ain't happening.

[Towne Cluber]

3 mile walks certainly aren't impossible, however, it's actually closer to 3.5 miles...which is 7 miles round trip. For eating and shopping on a routine basis, that's kind of ridiculous.

[Hypestyles]

That abandoned burger king across the street from UDM needs to be razed.

[softailrider]

If you think walking from UDM to 8 Mile is "scary" you need to grow a pair.

Take a walk around there at 2am after the bars close. Let me know how that turns out.

[mwilbert]

Not impossible but pretty close. Part of that walk from U of D to Ferndale might be considered scary even in the daytime. At night or during the Winter forget it, it just ain't happening.

I'm curious. What part of that walk do you think would be scary in the daytime? For me, the scariest part of that walk would be crossing 8 mile, because I wouldn't bother crossing at a light.