What's Happening West of Cass By The Arena Site?

[emu steve]

Yeah, it would be boring to you. That's the problem Emu, you come around this board with one objective, peddling the Ilitch snake-skin oil.

I guess you don't like Deco?

This building exterior is a closer match to the Temple than most around it. Looks like it has some great conversion potential to me. I love how this district project is now turning into the demolition of recently inhabited buildings. The building would qualify for public funds if there were a conversion plan. Instead, Olympia buys it and will tear it down.

Just how is this project supposed to spur development from other developers when ilitch owns everything? Why would they want in on a homogenized arena/strip mall district with Ilitch siphoning money off them at every turn?

Last I checked the downtown's upswing has more to do with pre-depression era architecture than it does new construction. In fact I can name some pretty big misses on new construction projects, starting with Ren-Cen, and ending at Kennedy Square. I've got more faith in the preexisting stuff.


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Let me take a wild guess and say, emu finds the Loyal order of Moose lodge boring as well.


"If you demo it, they will come"... [[Fields of "district")

Yes, the Michigan Chronicle building could be updated, etc. and it is a very nice building. BTW, to those who know building and construction, could it be converted into say lofts? Is the ultimate goal of that block to go from social service agencies, a commercial building, etc. to all residential [[at least on that block)?

The upside so far is that the Michigan Chronicle is taking a now empty downtown building as its new home. That is a +. One empty building will be updated and put to use.

I await word what is planned for those two blocks. Ilitch Holdings seem to have a good hold on Cass between Ledyard and N. Henry. I have NO idea who owns what on Cass between Temple and Ledyard. A poster suggested that Cass Park will be expanded. I had not read that before.

Until then, I can't pass judgement on a single building in those two blocks. Right now those two blocks are an odd mix of surface parking, residential buildings, social service buildings [[plural), commercial, etc.

Everything in life and development is: Do you prefer A to B or B to A? I'm not sure what 'B' is. [[I assume 'A' is that the buildings, including Michigan Chronicle stay). Or a better analogy using an eye exam: "Do you prefer '1' or '2'?" You choose '1' or '2' not "I'll take the 20/20 option [[which might not be possible)".

[Mackinaw]

Happy about the Chronicle's rehab of a Harmonie Park building.

A few questions, on this note. Harmonie Park has recently been called Paradise Valley a lot lately. I though Paradise Valley was along the former Hastings St., now the Chrysler Freeway. Is the rebranding of Harmonie Park merely a tribute to the area that used to be several blocks east, or was there a period in which Harmonie Park was an extension of the Hastings Street scene/community?

I've always found Harmonie Park one of the city's most pleasant corners and hope to see infill that creates a more appropriate enclosure around it-- it is reminiscent of the pocket parks of Greenwich Village.

[animatedmartian]

Happy about the Chronicle's rehab of a Harmonie Park building.

A few questions, on this note. Harmonie Park has recently been called Paradise Valley a lot lately. I though Paradise Valley was along the former Hastings St., now the Chrysler Freeway. Is the rebranding of Harmonie Park merely a tribute to the area that used to be several blocks east, or was there a period in which Harmonie Park was an extension of the Hastings Street scene/community?

I've always found Harmonie Park one of the city's most pleasant corners and hope to see infill that creates a more appropriate enclosure around it-- it is reminiscent of the pocket parks of Greenwich Village.

Most sources define Brush Street as the western boundary of Paradise Valley. But the main landmarks and businesses that the neighborhood was known for were mainly along Hastings and St. Antoine.

[Dbest]

The upside so far is that the Michigan Chronicle is taking a now empty downtown building as its new home. That is a +. One empty building will be updated and put to use.

It's nice they chose another building in the heart of the downtown. I'm sure their employees are excited about the new digs. That being said, I recently walked through Harmonie Park and noticed the building they are moving into. It's been being rehabbed for some time if I remember right?

That building was well on its way to being back online regardless of The Michigan Chronicle entering the picture. They aren't the only tenant lined up for the building.

Problem now is that the former building becomes very vulnerable at the hands of Olympia. There will be no gain if the Chronicle Building gets tore down. I will lose all faith in Olympia if that happens... What will be the excuse they use I wonder?

[emu steve]

It's nice they chose another building in the heart of the downtown. I'm sure their employees are excited about the new digs. That being said, I recently walked through Harmonie Park and noticed the building they are moving into. It's been being rehabbed for some time if I remember right?

That building was well on its way to being back online regardless of The Michigan Chronicle entering the picture. They aren't the only tenant lined up for the building.

Problem now is that the former building becomes very vulnerable at the hands of Olympia. There will be no gain if the Chronicle Building gets tore down. I will lose all faith in Olympia if that happens... What will be the excuse they use I wonder?

Practice ice arena? [[I'm kidding, but where is the practice arena?).

[downtownguy]

...

A few questions, on this note. Harmonie Park has recently been called Paradise Valley a lot lately. I though Paradise Valley was along the former Hastings St., now the Chrysler Freeway. Is the rebranding of Harmonie Park merely a tribute to the area that used to be several blocks east, or was there a period in which Harmonie Park was an extension of the Hastings Street scene/community?

You are correct about the "rebranding" of Harmonie Park. It bordered the real Paradise Valley, but to my knowledge did not have the same kind of businesses or activity that thrived a few blocks east.

[jt1]

I've taken a hiatus from this board because it has been overrun by a few 'Detroit is horrible and always will be" types but I really need to ask:

EMU Steve: What's your end game/benefit in supporting everything Ilitch/Olympia. It honestly appears that you are on the payroll to try to spin anything they do into something positive. To be honest, it is simply painful.

[downtownguy]

Without trying to start another firestorm, I'd guess that is the plan. Most of the SMALL buildings South of Temple don't have any historical significance.

I don't think anyone would say the Michigan Chronicle building is historic. It looks pretty boring to me.

Set your Google street view machine to here: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3369...8i6656!6m1!1e1

Do you see anything historic? No, it's a parking lot. But about a dozen years ago it was the location of the very historic Madison-Lenox Hotel, demolished by Ilitch in 2005 for a 50 car temporary parking lot, ostensibly to cover the overflow demand of the 2006 Super Bowl. Ilitch promised to redevelop it after the Super Bowl in return for the city paying to make the Hotel disappear.

In the shadow of the CoPa, that building would have been ripe for renovation if it had stayed and it would have added a lot more character to that two block area which also includes the historic Music Hall, the historic Detroit Athletic Club, the historic former Home Telegraph Company of Detroit Building, the historic Detroit Opera House, and the recently renovated historic Ashley Detroit Residences, than a parking lot.

But I'm sure we can trust Mr. Ilitch to do the right thing this time.

[downtownguy]

On second thought, emu steve, you've convinced me. I'm sure all the buildings surrounding the Michigan Chronicle building are older than Joe Louis Arena, which opened in 1979. By that measure, if the Joe has to go, then so be it for all other buildings older than it.

[Mackinaw]

Important to note: the new Cass Park Historic District proposal, which I think Preservation Detroit may have spearheaded, goes before City Council likely this fall. They are on top of the situation, but if Olympia has a desire to demo, then we can be assured of another showdown [[and that one, i think, they'd lose as the condition of this and neighboring buildings do not compare to the recently destroyed hotel).

[txlady]

Speaking of architectural significance, I used to work occasionally in what was the old GM Bldg, connected to the Fisher. Last week was probably the first time I walked thru the lobby in 20 years, and it struck me as 'flat'. I can't put my finger on it, but I remember it as being much more a gem the first few times I saw it. I suspect part of it is that the beams coming out of the walls have been striped of their light fixtures, but is there more? I walked thru the Fisher at the same time, and it was as opulent and wonderful as I remember.

On the other hand, I walked around the Jefferson/Woodward area and was surprised at how I remember there being more skyscrapers. The ones that remain are fabulous, but have that many been torn down, or is this just a 20 year memory making things more spectacular?

I didn't realize it until after I left how much the whole Art Deco style astounds me with it's beauty.

[CrashDummy]

I've taken a hiatus from this board because it has been overrun by a few 'Detroit is horrible and always will be" types but I really need to ask:

EMU Steve: What's your end game/benefit in supporting everything Ilitch/Olympia. It honestly appears that you are on the payroll to try to spin anything they do into something positive. To be honest, it is simply painful.

I've always thought Steve has spoken rather objectionably and rationally about Ilitch's doings. Unlike a lot of people who just piss their pants with rage with the slightest Ilitch reference.

He does mention D.C. way too often though, as I can't think of many American cities that Detroit has less in common with. Other than mayors who go to prison.

[emu steve]

I've always thought Steve has spoken rather objectionably and rationally about Ilitch's doings. Unlike a lot of people who just piss their pants with rage with the slightest Ilitch reference.

He does mention D.C. way too often though, as I can't think of many American cities that Detroit has less in common with. Other than mayors who go to prison.

Sorry about all of the references to D.C, but the parallels seem, to me, a lot more than it might seem from a distance.

To me its rebirth from the depths of say 1990, crack cocaine epidemic, murder capital of the U.S., white flight, significant population loss, broke, etc. etc. parallels a lot of Detroit's problems.

The question for me is can Detroit's regrowth parallel what I've seen in D.C. the last 25 years? I've followed the re-vitalization of the various D.C. neighborhoods, starting with the downtown and working out to the neighborhoods. Now folks in D.C. worry significantly about gentrification. Washington Post has an article today on M-1 and mentions 'gentrification.' Detroit should be fortunate enough to have tens of thousands of young millenials moving back to the city paying $1,500 - $2,500 / month to rent an apartment.

Back to "Cass Park" area. Without Ilitch Holdings, that area is completely dead. I might still have photos of when Eddystone was attempting to go condo [[2006?) and folks laughed that someone could ask 190k [[I think) for a unit in an abandoned building. Like people live in neighborhoods and that neighborhood was weeds and urban decay. Both the building AND NEIGHBORHOOD needed a compete revitalization.

I see NOTHING new happening. Preserving the status quo for the arena and Cass Park 'West' areas is not an option. How can preserving the desolate be a good thing? What does Detroit have to lose?

I've seen some bad, very bad, urban renewal, but I pray that something happens there [[and Brush Park) and what happens is better, much better than what is there now.

We can not roll back the calendar to 1915. There is reality, circa 2015.

[Detroitnerd]

When I look into my crystal ball, what I see is this:

The parcels owned by Ilitch will see sluggish redevelopment compared to the rest of the central city.

The Ilitch organization has become entitled, addicted to the handouts from Lansing and City Hall it can induce politically. I'm no huge fan of Dan Gilbert, but he knows how to prime an area with the abatements and sweetheart deals he gets. Ilitch, not so much.

A businessman who pays dearly for an area has an incentive to see that it's properly developed, that the assets he has bought produce him a profit. When a businessman uses political pull to get land for $1, and obtains unusual tax deals, where is that incentive to pursue speedy, profitable redevelopment?

Another strike against the organization is that it has a marked tendency to pursue development along the lines you'd find anywhere. The group doesn't exploit historic architecture. The group is eager to sweep away historic street grids. The group, in short, does everything it can to alienate itself to the tastes and desires of the very group that it hopes to attract. It's not rocket science: The millennials are the most studied and researched generation in history. But the organization thinks it can fool this generation by mouthing platitudes to urbanism while it pursues a program of carpet-bombing the very things this generation seems to value.

If I were to draw up a marketing plan for the Ilitch organization, I would ask they declare a moratorium on demolition, donate a few million dollars' worth of seed money for programs to repurpose old buildings and responsibly salvage existing ones that are too far gone, and invite engineers and architects from around the world to ensure nothing valuable gets tossed out in haste.

But when you have political pull, when you can get public subsidies, when the city will demolish buildings for you at your beck and call, when you can play footsie with the MEDC, when you simply have to cough and the powers that be do your bidding, what reason do you have in a free market to do bold things and actually play smart?

That's why the prediction in my particular crystal ball is so gloomy for that stretch of Grand River Avenue from the freeway to the casino. This isn't free market business. This is a state-ordered economy at work in the service of a boss. And that's why the prospects for this little area look very dim right now.

[Mackinaw]

Disregarding the obvious differences in economic structure and the profile of their respective downtowns [[Detroit's is way more interesting), D.C. is actually an excellent comparator to Detroit now that it is fully engaged in true revitalization and reinvestment. I think we'll follow DC fairly closely from a neighborhood redevelopment and crime amelioration standpoint, consistently trailing about 15 years behind. In 15 years, we'll be like DC today, with 1/4 to 1/3 of the City the 'chosen area' for major revitalization of all types [[NW DC, i.e.), but other places highly relegated and maligned. Naturally, the latter will be places where the battle against crime continues. But the latter will also be places that slowly get targeted more and more for reinvestment, or, even better, for community-based reinvestment that truly aims to help the poor and working class, and solve the struggles that generate crime.

We can only hope that's Detroit's economic engine accelerates and permits a redevelopment path that allows us to gain on the likes of DC.

[Bham1982]

Disregarding the obvious differences in economic structure and the profile of their respective downtowns [[Detroit's is way more interesting), D.C. is actually an excellent comparator to Detroit now that it is fully engaged in true revitalization and reinvestment. I think we'll follow DC fairly closely from a neighborhood redevelopment and crime amelioration standpoint, consistently trailing about 15 years behind. In 15 years, we'll be like DC today, with 1/4 to 1/3 of the City the 'chosen area' for major revitalization of all types [[NW DC, i.e.), but other places highly relegated and maligned. Naturally, the latter will be places where the battle against crime continues. But the latter will also be places that slowly get targeted more and more for reinvestment, or, even better, for community-based reinvestment that truly aims to help the poor and working class, and solve the struggles that generate crime.

We can only hope that's Detroit's economic engine accelerates and permits a redevelopment path that allows us to gain on the likes of DC.

Yes, obviously Detroit and DC are like identical twins. The fact that one is the capitol of the most powerful country in world history, and the other isn't, plays no role in their trajectories. The fact that one has hundreds of thousands of high paying federal jobs and the other has almost none, is completely irrelevant. The fact that one has a dense and vibrant core of such federal workers fed by a 120 mile subway system ridden by these federal workers and the other has none of this is also irrelevant. Moving on...

[emu steve]

Yes, obviously Detroit and DC are like identical twins. The fact that one is the capitol of the most powerful country in world history, and the other isn't, plays no role in their trajectories. The fact that one has hundreds of thousands of high paying federal jobs and the other has almost none, is completely irrelevant. The fact that one has a dense and vibrant core of such federal workers fed by a 120 mile subway system ridden by these federal workers and the other has none of this is also irrelevant. Moving on...

I think Bham1982 is reading some tourist guide.

D.C. was NOT always what it is today. I previously described D.C. circa 1990 which had most of the problems of Detroit. Sure it had all of the federal government, but still all of the social ills.

Gee, when I posted the similarities I forgot one: D.C. had RIOTS [[1968), just like Detroit [[1967). The revitalization and gentrification in D.C. has included areas which were decimated by the 1968 riot [[and it took DECADES).

Decades previously it was essentially a Southern city with a lot of problem known to Southern cities.

[Bham1982]

D.C. was NOT always what it is today. I previously described D.C. circa 1990 which had most of the problems of Detroit. Sure it had all of the federal government, but still all of the social ills.

Downtown DC in 1990 was pretty much like it is today. It had the same large, vibrant core, with hundreds of thousands of downtown federal workers, fed by a large subway system, and lots of street level activity, construction, and growth, basically everywhere. Downtown was already surrounded by prosperous residential areas back then.

DC in 1990 had nothing to do with Detroit. They are completely different cities, then and today. You could hardly find a worse comparison to Detroit.

Gee, when I posted the similarities I forgot one: D.C. had RIOTS [[1968), just like Detroit [[1967). The revitalization and gentrification in D.C. has included areas which were decimated by the 1968 riot [[and it took DECADES).

Every single major U.S. city had riots. There is no city that never had riots. What does that have to do with anything?

[Junjie]

Stand back, everyone. Bham is here to explain to us how a crime infested, white-flighted, single-industry American city led for years by a divisive first black mayor that lost 16% of its population in a single decade following massive race riots and bottomed out at ~600,000 people in a metro area of ~5 million is pretty much the worst comparison to Detroit you can imagine.

Although, I have to admire the chutzpah in bringing up the subway. How many threads have you spent telling us that subways and rapid transit have nothing to do with the health of cities?

[emu steve]

Stand back, everyone. Bham is here to explain to us how a crime infested, white-flighted, single-industry American city led for years by a divisive first black mayor that lost 16% of its population in a single decade following massive race riots and bottomed out at ~600,000 people in a metro area of ~5 million is pretty much the worst comparison to Detroit you can imagine.

Although, I have to admire the chutzpah in bringing up the subway. How many threads have you spent telling us that subways and rapid transit have nothing to do with the health of cities?

I'm going to post a few nuggets from Wikipedia and bow out about this debate over Detroit / D.C comparisons and contrasts:

Does any of this sound like D.C. and Detroit share parallel infamy in more ways than many do not realize:

"The city's local government, particularly during the mayoralty of Marion Barry, was criticized for mismanagement and waste.^[170] During his administration in 1989, The Washington Monthly magazine claimed that the District had "the worst city government in America."^[171] In 1995, at the start of Barry's fourth term, Congress created the District of Columbia Financial Control Board to oversee all municipal spending.^[172

Perhaps, if D.C. wasn't the nation's capitol, it too might have gone bankrupt despite all of the buildings downtown, expenses housing, etc. etc.

Maybe in 1989, D.C. and Detroit [[tied) had the worst city government in America.

^*********

Washington was often described as the "murder capital" of the United States during the early 1990s.^[106] The number of murders peaked in 1991 at 479, but the level of violence then began to decline significantly.^[107] By 2012, Washington's annual murder count dropped to 88, the lowest total since 1961.^[108

********

DCPS has one of the highest-cost yet lowest-performing school systems in the country, both in terms of infrastructure and student achievement.<sup>[185]

******
From 1970 - 1980, D.C. lost almost 125K population [[15.6%).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.

Detroit lost 20.5%.

All I can say: D.C. in the last 20 years has made near miraculous progress from financial abyss to surpluses [[only ones in D.C.; Congress could learn from D.C. Lol), many new vibrant neighborhoods which were formerly crime ridden places, tremendous number of new office and residential buildings, Verizon Centre and Nationals Park, much lower crime problems, etc. etc.

Will Detroit do similar, albeit smaller scale, with downtown's comeback, Midtown, Brush Park, revitalization of other neighborhoods which have declined over decades or during the housing crisis, etc. etc.

People come here to get answers to those questions...</sup>

[Bham1982]

Stand back, everyone. Bham is here to explain to us how a crime infested, white-flighted, single-industry American city led for years by a divisive first black mayor that lost 16% of its population in a single decade following massive race riots and bottomed out at ~600,000 people in a metro area of ~5 million is pretty much the worst comparison to Detroit you can imagine.

You just made all this up.

First black mayor of DC was Walter Washington, basically the anti Coleman Young. He was best known as a bipartisan race healer. Even Richard Nixon was a fan.

DC has gained population for decades. Detroit hasn't. Postwar population loss occurred in every single older American city.

DC has never been a "single industry city" like Detroit.

DC never had "massive race riots" like Detroit. They had riots, like every single other American city.

DC Metro is nearly twice the size and economy of Detoit metro.

Although, I have to admire the chutzpah in bringing up the subway. How many threads have you spent telling us that subways and rapid transit have nothing to do with the health of cities?

You made this up too. Never once on DYes did I claim "subways and rapid transit have nothing to do with the health of cities". The Washington Metro is absolutely critical to DC's economic health.

I shouldn't be surprised, but this is exactly why so many people on DYes are so wrong about Detroit. They don't know the first thing about cities. They think Detroit and DC are about the same thing. No wonder they haven't a clue what's up and what's down when it comes to city building. No one locally knows how cities work, and those that do, leave.

[Jimaz]

SetecX posted this link to his drone videos of the construction site: Skating to where the puck will be.

Good job, SetecX!

[emu steve]

SetecX posted this link to his drone videos of the construction site: Skating to where the puck will be.

Good job, SetecX!

Good stuff.

BTW, I believe the building which was going to go condo [[2006?) was the one imploded, not the Eddystone.

[emu steve]

This probably belongs in the other thread, but where will the practice ice be?

I know in [[basketball) arenas that some have practice courts [[and weight rooms) below the regular court [[essentially a 'basement' level).

Where do the Wings practice now???

[ndavies]

The Wings practiced at Joe Louis most days. Yes, the main rink. They would practice at City sports center when the Joe had other things going on.

The practice rink was proposed to be under the square at the southwest corner of new rink in the preliminary drawings.