Kid Rock tells Confederate Flag protesters to "Kiss My A**"

[Honky Tonk]

This NAN/Kid Rock thing, has this garnered national attention or is it just local?

I think it's just DetroitYES!

[TheUsualSuspect]

I think if it were you being murdered or having your church burned down or learning a family history of being enslaved and terrorized by people carrying that flag, while it's simultaneously flying at the state capitol where the laws that govern you are made, you might have a different perception of just how "powerless" it is. Making it clear that the state government has moved from tacitly endorsing those actions to rejecting them is not a minor thing.

Maybe...but I don't think so. The evil is in the ideology, not in the object.

Emotions run high after these tragedies. The need to do try to make some permanent change is a natural desire and outcome. If removing a piece of colored cloth from the top of a building aids in the healing process, then I suppose, go ahead. I do believe that the effect is largely placebo and that the energy could be used in a more productive fashion. [[shrug)

[Zacha341]

Yep, nothing so far from across the pond...http://www.dailymail.co.uk

I think it's just DetroitYES!

[Wesley Mouch]

I'm pretty certain I'm in the minority in my opinion...I often am about these things.

I'm admittedly, a white college educated middle class, overweight goof male. If I've got any offended or abused historical minority in me, I am frankly unaware.

When people get excited and all torqued up about an inanimate object [[even a word) , even if it is symbolic, be it the confederate flag, the Nazi swastika, or any other similar I don't get it.

All it does is give power to something which seem to me, to have had very little to begin with.

Burning / banning / barring the whatever...provides a focal point for retaliatory or vengeful anger and rage, but in reality...does it really change or affect the ideology behind it.

Maybe I simply underestimate the power and effect of these things...but as mankind and humandom evolves...I find myself disappointed in our reaction. All of those people murdered in that church, and the best we can do is point fingers at the confederate flag. Seems like a lot of cumulative energy spent addressing something pretty trivial and powerless.

Those who prefer to wallow in the misery of the past gain power by keeping the spectre of racism alive. Today, most others are instead celebrating the overwhelming assimilation of people that America represents. If you travel a lot -- and I do -- you'll find that multi-cultural work and personal [[as well as LGBT...) relationships are thriving in cities from south to north, and east to west. The symbols are most irrelevant and have no power. Racists are mostly irrelevant and have no power.

You are correct to stand up and say that this is mostly about nothing.

The legislatures of the South also seem to be standing up and saying that the symbols aren't really that important to us -- and that its time to retire them. I'm glad to see this resolved by peaceful and collaborative means. Kudos to South Carolina's representatives for overwhelmingly did the right thing:

MSNBC:

But the die was cast, and a clean bill finally passed overwhelmingly on its second reading at 11:55 p.m., and a third and final reading, by 94 to 20, 15 minutes after midnight, backed by the promise of a third vote on the Quinn-Ott bill to fund the war relic museum when the legislature reconvenes in the fall.

*

Now, we should move on... and let the 20 fools who voted against removal and their dwindling number of supporters learn by watching adults behave well -- and not fuel anger by shouting them down and paying attention to fools.

* - read the mostly inspiring story of government in action deliberating and representing their citizens -- and in the end doing good IMO. We complain about our representatives. But sometimes they do just fine representing us.

[noise]

The symbols are most irrelevant and have no power. Racists are mostly irrelevant and have no power.

Are you, by chance, a white male?

[TheUsualSuspect]

Are you, by chance, a white male?

Noise: I know you didn't direct the question to me, but allow me to answer it as if you had.

Yes I am. My opinions are influenced by my life experiences, which in turn, are influenced by my skin color, sex, sexual orientation, hair color, social status, level of education, and all of the other things that differentiate us as human beings. I am in all likelihood...different from you in all sorts of ways.

I want for you...even not knowing you, all good things. I am your brother.

Objects...all objects, even bullets...cannot harm anyone unless energized by an outside force.

I guess if we really think that the object, the symbol is the threat, then remove it, burn it, abolish it, ban it, make it illegal to even possess. I'd wager though, that the real threat, the true evil remains, hidden behind another smokescreen or symbol. Evil is sneaky and smart

We are wasting our energy focusing on images and mirages. There are 1000's. They are decoy targets and intended to exhaust us. When we are tired, we are vulnerable.

I'd write more but I'd be complicating an answer to a simple question.

Yes, I am a white male.

[Richard]

Let me guess being white one would have no clue as to what racism is like?

I am white and while in the military 1979 I did 120 days hard labor military prison,why?
Because the ships captain and my squadron commander did not feel it was right for a white person to date a Hispanic and they felt that would deter me from continuing the relationship.

Ever be white and buy a house in a predominately black neighborhood ? It can get ugly real quick.

Its a two way street and you cannot judge everybody because of a few.But I guess that is the fall card if all else fails,call em a racist because there is no way they can understand.

[BankruptcyGuy]

Here's one to get you thinking:

The Confederate Flag is a symbol of hatred and evil, and should be removed because of its offensive nature.

What about this? Wasn't there a thread where some writers indicated they were ok with this if it offended the religious?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...enue/30096555/

[TheUsualSuspect]

Here's one to get you thinking:

The Confederate Flag is a symbol of hatred and evil, and should be removed because of its offensive nature.

What about this? Wasn't there a thread where some writers indicated they were ok with this if it offended the religious?

See, the image or likeness of the devil is nothing. The worship or following of the devil...the ideology...WAY different.

The confederate flag was the colors, the flag of the OTHER SIDE of the civil war. It becomes linked with the evil only if we make it so. It's as if when we make the cloth go away, the evil follows it. If only it were so simple...sigh....

[Wesley Mouch]

Are you, by chance, a white male?

Yes. You may now discount my opinions with impunity. But you'll have to look elsewhere to express your prejudice against Protestants or Anglo-Saxons.

Comparative discrimination is a dangerous sport. Assumptions about people should be what you fight against -- not indulge in.

But back to the thread... Mr. Rock seems to have his head screwed on straight. Except that Kid Rock hasn't bowed to your way of thinking on the confederate flag, what has he done that you find offensive or racist?

[gvidas]

Mouch, our whiteness matters because as straight white men our perception of how much prejudice other people experience is irrelevant to a discussion of their experiences.

If you and your wife sit down to eat dinner, and she takes a bite and says "this is too spicy for me to eat," you're free to say "I think it tastes great" -- but that doesn't change the fact that her mouth is burning.

Here's a lengthy article [[rewritten sermon, actually) that makes the point more thoroughly:

https://thsppl.com/i-racist-538512462265

[...] To my aunt, the suggestion that "people in The North are racist" is an attack on her as a racist. She is unable to differentiate her participation within a racist system [[upwardly mobile, not racially profiled, able to move to White suburbs, etc.) from an accusation that she, individually, is a racist. Without being able to make that differentiation, White people in general decide to vigorously defend their own personal non-racism, or point out that it doesn't exist because they don't see it.

The result of this is an incessantly repeating argument where a Black person says "Racism still exists. It is real," and a white person argues "You're wrong, I'm not racist at all. I don't even see any racism." My aunt's immediate response is not "that is wrong, we should do better." No, her response is self-protection: "That's not my fault, I didn't do anything. You are wrong."

Racism is not slavery. As President Obama said, it's not avoiding the use of the word Nigger. Racism is not white water fountains and the back of the bus. Martin Luther King did not end racism. Racism is a cop severing the spine of an innocent man. It is a 12 year old child being shot for playing with a toy gun in a state where it is legal to openly carry firearms.

[canuck]

Interesting thread. The flag becomes an inanimate object for some = inoffensive.

For others it is the symbol of evil, an outdated reminder of an ugly past.

Then the Star and Stripes becomes the symbol of all that is evil, but shouldn't be put away.

Wow. A lot of unresolvdzz.

[TheUsualSuspect]

Interesting thread. The flag becomes an inanimate object for some = inoffensive.

For others it is the symbol of evil, an outdated reminder of an ugly past.

Then the Star and Stripes becomes the symbol of all that is evil, but shouldn't be put away.

Wow. A lot of unresolvdzz.

It's the discussions like these that keep me hooked on DetroitYes. Virtually all of the time we can discuss viewpoints absent name calling and venom present on say...the newspaper commentary. I really love this place. I read more than I write, but I love the place.

[aj3647]

Those who prefer to wallow in the misery of the past gain power by keeping the spectre of racism alive. Today, most others are instead celebrating the overwhelming assimilation of people that America represents. If you travel a lot -- and I do -- you'll find that multi-cultural work and personal [[as well as LGBT...) relationships are thriving in cities from south to north, and east to west. The symbols are most irrelevant and have no power. Racists are mostly irrelevant and have no power.

Donald Trump is currently on top of the polls for the Republican nomination...and he got there almost entirely by saying racist things about Hispanics. Racism is alive and well. The entire immigration debate, which is at the forefront of Republican politics at the moment, is saturated in thinly-veiled racism and xenophobia.

Those thriving LGBT relationships you refer to are thriving IN SPITE OF the bigotry espoused overwhelming by Christian conservatives, not because of the lack of it. Gay couples are still being denied marriage licenses by county clerks in some parts of the country [[guess which ones?), in violation of the law, some with the open encouragement of their Republican state leadership. Remind you of anything? Maybe the way some states in the South responded to federal Civil Rights legislation and Supreme Court decisions in the 1960's???

[Dan Wesson]

Donald Trump is a False Flag Republican Presidential Candidate.

He is very close to both Clintons.

You'll see....

[aj3647]

Donald Trump is a False Flag Republican Presidential Candidate.

He is very close to both Clintons.

You'll see....

Well gee, if you say so. "Asked if she would be a good president, Trump, 69, said, "She was the worst Secretary of State in the history of our nation. Why would she be a good president? I think she would be a terrible president." Yes, clearly they are best buds.

Anyways, the POINT is, Trump has rocketed in the polls thanks to his unabashed appeal to white racism. Whether he is a serious candiate or not is irrelevant. He said racist stuff, he got exponentially more popular among conservative whites.

Yes. You may now discount my opinions with impunity. But you'll have to look elsewhere to express your prejudice against Protestants or Anglo-Saxons.

Poor you, having to exprience the "prejudice" of being told that "white men aren't experts on how people of color perceive racism in America." Me thinks that word does not mean what you think it means...

[noise]

Noise: I know you didn't direct the question to me, but allow me to answer it as if you had.

Yes I am. My opinions are influenced by my life experiences, which in turn, are influenced by my skin color, sex, sexual orientation, hair color, social status, level of education, and all of the other things that differentiate us as human beings. I am in all likelihood...different from you in all sorts of ways.

I want for you...even not knowing you, all good things. I am your brother.

Objects...all objects, even bullets...cannot harm anyone unless energized by an outside force.

I guess if we really think that the object, the symbol is the threat, then remove it, burn it, abolish it, ban it, make it illegal to even possess. I'd wager though, that the real threat, the true evil remains, hidden behind another smokescreen or symbol. Evil is sneaky and smart

We are wasting our energy focusing on images and mirages. There are 1000's. They are decoy targets and intended to exhaust us. When we are tired, we are vulnerable.

I'd write more but I'd be complicating an answer to a simple question.

Yes, I am a white male.

While I appreciate the response, you've doubled down on what I was countering.

I, too, am a white male. I'm wise enough to understand that these things aren't just "images and mirages" to many people unlike me.

[noise]

Let me guess being white one would have no clue as to what racism is like?

I am white and while in the military 1979 I did 120 days hard labor military prison,why?
Because the ships captain and my squadron commander did not feel it was right for a white person to date a Hispanic and they felt that would deter me from continuing the relationship.

Ever be white and buy a house in a predominately black neighborhood ? It can get ugly real quick.

Its a two way street and you cannot judge everybody because of a few.But I guess that is the fall card if all else fails,call em a racist because there is no way they can understand.

This is basically nonsense and misses the point entirely. Your false equivalencies are rather silly, if not downright insulting.

[noise]

Yes. You may now discount my opinions with impunity. But you'll have to look elsewhere to express your prejudice against Protestants or Anglo-Saxons.

Comparative discrimination is a dangerous sport. Assumptions about people should be what you fight against -- not indulge in.

But back to the thread... Mr. Rock seems to have his head screwed on straight. Except that Kid Rock hasn't bowed to your way of thinking on the confederate flag, what has he done that you find offensive or racist?

I will only discount your opinions because you've made it clear yours are all that matters and your experiences as a white male are the same as those who are not white males. That's quite a privilege. As a white male, I'm glad I'm not as full of myself.

Pretending to know, and subsequently discount, what you absolutely cannot experience is disingenuous at best.

Kid Rock has only offended me with stupidity and bad music. As I mentioned earlier, this is a non-issue.

[aj3647]

It's as if when we make the cloth go away, the evil follows it. If only it were so simple...sigh....

It's not that simple. But then again, literally NO ONE said that. With all the strawmen that you, Wesley, UsualSuspects, and Richard are building, you could field a straw army.

Taking down the flag won't make hate go away, but at least black taxpayers in South Carolina don't have to be visually confronted with a state-funded and state-endorsed reminder of their own past enslavement when they visit their own capitol. So there's that. It won't do anything to reduce hate or change anyone's mind, but it was still the right thing to do.

[Richard]

It's not that simple. But then again, literally NO ONE said that. With all the strawmen that you, Wesley, UsualSuspects, and Richard are building, you could field a straw army.

Taking down the flag won't make hate go away, but at least black taxpayers in South Carolina don't have to be visually confronted with a state-funded and state-endorsed reminder of their own past enslavement when they visit their own capitol. So there's that. It won't do anything to reduce hate or change anyone's mind, but it was still the right thing to do.

Notice you said "black taxpayers" in South Carolina.

Why would you say that? Is that not separating them from other tax payers?Would they not be considered a citizen or taxpayer of South Carolina,who elected a Governor of Indian decent.

White people are automatically racist no matter what because they cannot understand what it is like,maybe one might want to do a little research on white people that were involved in the civil rights movement from day one.

But that's why things will never change because it is always white people or black people,its never fellow American on either side.There is always that separation.

You have to wonder how many outside of the state actually knew or even cared about the flag before all of this.

So not only do we now deny constitutional rights of others if we do not agree with their opinion they become either a racist or straw man or what other continued distraction to deviate from dealing with the real issue.

If that is the case then I feel it is time to remove the stars and stripes because it was a symbol of racism and oppression for 83 years and is the preferred flag for hate groups,and is a constant reminder of our countries ugly past.If we take it away then I will feel much better because it would be the right thing to do.It not only has a nasty past there seems to be many that are unsure of what it stands for in the present.

Like I posted earlier,its not going to end,now there is a petition to have Cracker Barrel change their name,shows how stupid people are because they do not even know what a Fl Cracker really is.

Is that what we do now ? Remove everything in print or anything visual that relates to the uncomfortable past of this country. Maybe they can designate a national book burning day where we can smash the windows of bookstores and libraries,throw the books into the street and roast smores made with soilent green tablets.When the fires are stoked they get hot.

United we stand divided we fall.

[Wesley Mouch]

Racism is over-rated. It exists, without doubt. And it is doubtless receeding. My whiteness sees progress every day. But yes, racism will never be eradicated.

IMO, we best fight racism through our positive daily action. Mr. Rock has probably done more to fight racism by his actions than most. That he does not agree with orthodoxy on the confederate flag is irrelevant.

[noise]

Notice you said "black taxpayers" in South Carolina.

Why would you say that? Is that not separating them from other tax payers?Would they not be considered a citizen or taxpayer of South Carolina,who elected a Governor of Indian decent.

Because black taxpayers, specifically, are most negatively affected by past slavery. Differences are to be celebrated. The "melting pot" nonsense is absurd. We are not the same. We are not robots. Celebrate diversity. In any real word situation, it's a positive. Unless you're afraid of difference.

White people are automatically racist no matter what because they cannot understand what it is like,maybe one might want to do a little research on white people that were involved in the civil rights movement from day one.

Nobody here is claiming "white people are automatically racist". That's a straw man. White people who were involved in the civil rights movement have absolutely no bearing on a white person having a different experience than a black person.

But that's why things will never change because it is always white people or black people,its never fellow American on either side.There is always that separation.

Things are always changing, despite your objections. You see "separation". I see diversity. You choose to make it a negative. I choose to see it a positive. You must have a different idea of what makes America great.

You have to wonder how many outside of the state actually knew or even cared about the flag before all of this.

Please expand and make your point more clear.

So not only do we now deny constitutional rights of others if we do not agree with their opinion they become either a racist or straw man or what other continued distraction to deviate from dealing with the real issue.

Nobody is denying a Constitutional right. Scare tactic after scare tactic. Poor you.

If that is the case then I feel it is time to remove the stars and stripes because it was a symbol of racism and oppression for 83 years and is the preferred flag for hate groups,and is a constant reminder of our countries ugly past.If we take it away then I will feel much better because it would be the right thing to do.It not only has a nasty past there seems to be many that are unsure of what it stands for in the present.

More straw man arguments. Maybe when we do improve and maybe when we do design a new flag we should remove it from government buildings.

You'd think for somebody who subscribes to sameness, you'd be the first person to advocate for removal of all non-US and state flags from government buildings.

Like I posted earlier,its not going to end,now there is a petition to have Cracker Barrel change their name,shows how stupid people are because they do not even know what a Fl Cracker really is.

This was a blatantly obvious joke.

Is that what we do now ? Remove everything in print or anything visual that relates to the uncomfortable past of this country. Maybe they can designate a national book burning day where we can smash the windows of bookstores and libraries,throw the books into the street and roast smores made with soilent green tablets.When the fires are stoked they get hot.

What are you possibly rambling about? What a strange conflation of issues. More scare tactics.

United we stand divided we fall.

Then let's unify with intelligence.

[noise]

Racism is over-rated. It exists, without doubt. And it is doubtless receeding. My whiteness sees progress every day. But yes, racism will never be eradicated.

IMO, we best fight racism through our positive daily action. Mr. Rock has probably done more to fight racism by his actions than most. That he does not agree with orthodoxy on the confederate flag is irrelevant.

Thank you for downplaying the experience of millions of people.

[Wheels]

Racism is over-rated. It exists, without doubt. And it is doubtless receeding. My whiteness sees progress every day. But yes, racism will never be eradicated.

IMO, we best fight racism through our positive daily action. Mr. Rock has probably done more to fight racism by his actions than most. That he does not agree with orthodoxy on the confederate flag is irrelevant.

Racism and racial tension has grown every year since Obama has been in office!