Kid Rock tells Confederate Flag protesters to "Kiss My A**"

**Honky Tonk** · July-18-15, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by jcole

If someone told me to quit doing something I quit 5 yrs ago, AND wanted me to apologize for having done it, I'd tell 'em to kiss my ass, too.

LOL! Brilliant!

**FlyOnTheWall** · July-18-15, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by TheUsualSuspect

Rallying against a THING is easy. It's visible, it's colorful, it may even be eye-catching.

We make real progress when we turn hearts and minds.

I'm now ready to be called insensitive. I remain white, but I keep trying to change.

Quit trying to change. You can never change enough to satisfy the people that call you, 'conservative, brainwashed, a victim and pathetic". Your only crime was being born white and they weren't. That is all that counts to them. Live with it! You cannot win because you are "WHITE"!

Allow me to explain.... My ancestry on my father's side is Northern European and my mother's side is Hungarian. No big deal but it makes me "WHITE". So.... It matters not that one of my daughters is married to a brown [[Hispanic) and my Grand kids are mixed. The other daughter is married to an Eskimo [[Mixed) which is a red race [[I think, but don't care) and it doesn't effect how I feel about my grand kids. I love 'em all equally and fairly.

Now about my wife's offspring..... Not real sure about my wife's heritage because I just don't care. But, my wife has a grand daughter that is married to a black. Woo-pee! Now the great grand daughter [[that is black and white) is having a child by a yellow guy.... We laughingly joke that this one will be our "Black & White & Yellow G G Grandson. Guess what? We will love him the same as all the rest of our off spring!

I know that we will feel the same about all of these kids but I also know that I will still be called "conservative, brainwashed, a victim and pathetic" by the same people that called you "conservative, brainwashed, a victim and pathetic" because I am white. Guess what? "I DON'T CARE"

Only the people that worry about color are "RACIST". Accept it and tell the racist to.... Think Kid Rock.... and I ain't even sure who Kid Rock is. I'm 77 years old and don't care. OK?

Hang in there... You ain't a racist nor am I, no matter what the real racist say.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-18-15, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by aj3647

If you do or say racist things, you're a racist. I could ask you to point where I said that ALL white people are racist, but since I didn't say that, I won't. But you keep on building that straw man there Skippy.

In fact, I've never even said that Kid Rock is racist, just that it's a bullshit argument to say that anyone who has donated money to a black cause can't be a racist. Donald Sterling donated lots of money to the NAACP...and he's a racist. The two things are not mutually exclusive. It's right up there with "I'm not racist, I have black friends."

But hey, it's all about "heritage", which is why people born and raised in the North fly it. It's pretty easy to see through that bullshit argument. Just yesterday, you had an all-white crowd in Oklahoma waving Confederate flags as a protest against Obama. Nothing says "not racist" like an exclusively white crowd waving a symbol of slavery at a black man they hate.

Serious questions. Cause I want to understand your thinking.

Is Kid Rock racist [[in your opinion)?

Does defending his use of the flag make him racist?

What does he have to do to prove that he's not a racist?

Is racism curable?

Please don't think I'm joking here. Especially with the last one. I know what people around these places think of me. But serious questions.

**erikd** · July-19-15, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Serious questions. Cause I want to understand your thinking.

Is Kid Rock racist [[in your opinion)?

Does defending his use of the flag make him racist?

What does he have to do to prove that he's not a racist?

Is racism curable?

Please don't think I'm joking here. Especially with the last one. I know what people around these places think of me. But serious questions.

Wesley,

I understand where you are coming from. It is normal to be defensive when somebody says that your actions and words are hurtful or discriminatory.

The protests against Kid Rock's use of the confederate flag have ended now that it has been pointed out that Kid Rock stopped flying the confederate flag in 2011, after he was honored by the NAACP. While it did not receive much national attention at the time, there were protesters picketing the awards ceremony because of his use of the confederate flag.

Kid Rock initially flew the confederate flag as a symbol of his respect for southern rock and country music, and then stopped flying the confederate flag when he realized how offensive and distasteful it was.
---------------------

To answer your questions:

Is Kid Rock racist?...

I don't know what is in his heart, but his actions certainly indicate that he is not racist.
---------

Does defending his use of the flag make him racist?...

Now that the whole story has come out, this question should be turned around. If Kid Rock realized that the confederate flag was a symbol of racism and oppression, and then stopped using it because he did not support the racist ideology symbolized by the flag, are the people who still fly the flag racist?
----------

What does he have to do to prove that he's not a racist?...

Not flying the confederate flag is a good starting point.
----------

Is racism curable?...

Racism is learned behavior and a social construct. It is not natural, or biological, and it is absolutely curable.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-19-15, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by erikd

Wesley,

I understand where you are coming from. It is normal to be defensive when somebody says that your actions and words are hurtful or discriminatory.

The protests against Kid Rock's use of the confederate flag have ended now that it has been pointed out that Kid Rock stopped flying the confederate flag in 2011, after he was honored by the NAACP. While it did not receive much national attention at the time, there were protesters picketing the awards ceremony because of his use of the confederate flag.

Kid Rock initially flew the confederate flag as a symbol of his respect for southern rock and country music, and then stopped flying the confederate flag when he realized how offensive and distasteful it was.
---------------------

To answer your questions:

Is Kid Rock racist?...

I don't know what is in his heart, but his actions certainly indicate that he is not racist.
---------

Does defending his use of the flag make him racist?...

Now that the whole story has come out, this question should be turned around. If Kid Rock realized that the confederate flag was a symbol of racism and oppression, and then stopped using it because he did not support the racist ideology symbolized by the flag, are the people who still fly the flag racist?
----------

What does he have to do to prove that he's not a racist?...

Not flying the confederate flag is a good starting point.
----------

Is racism curable?...

Racism is learned behavior and a social construct. It is not natural, or biological, and it is absolutely curable.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. So what we have is someone appears to have behaved admirably, and you don't think is a racist. What could he have done to not have been labelled a racist?

It seems to me that we have a social problem here. Certain actions become 'offensive'. If you don't agree, you get labelled 'racist'. There's no court to settle this. Only the court of public opinion.

Here, this reasonable guy going about his reasonable business was labelled racist because of his opinion about the confederate flag. But the evidence seems to suggest that he's not a racist. Yet he was hauled before DY court on charges.

In other posts, there's been a discussion about the ubiquity of the charge. Simply being white is sufficient to become labelled as in denial about being racist. Some have even shown extreme examples where the American flag is considered a symbol of 'oppression'. An environment where holding certain thoughts is 'proof' of racism isn't healthy.

Next question: What did Kid Rock do wrong? How could he have avoided the 'public whipping'? How could he have avoided having his employer [[GM) call a mediation session to show that they really aren't racist.

The charges of racism today feel a lot like charges of Communist Party membership by the HUAC.

**canuck** · July-19-15, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. So what we have is someone appears to have behaved admirably, and you don't think is a racist. What could he have done to not have been labelled a racist?

It seems to me that we have a social problem here. Certain actions become 'offensive'. If you don't agree, you get labelled 'racist'. There's no court to settle this. Only the court of public opinion.

Here, this reasonable guy going about his reasonable business was labelled racist because of his opinion about the confederate flag. But the evidence seems to suggest that he's not a racist. Yet he was hauled before DY court on charges.

In other posts, there's been a discussion about the ubiquity of the charge. Simply being white is sufficient to become labelled as in denial about being racist. Some have even shown extreme examples where the American flag is considered a symbol of 'oppression'. An environment where holding certain thoughts is 'proof' of racism isn't healthy.

Next question: What did Kid Rock do wrong? How could he have avoided the 'public whipping'? How could he have avoided having his employer [[GM) call a mediation session to show that they really aren't racist.

The charges of racism today feel a lot like charges of Communist Party membership by the HUAC.

He may not be a racist. Using the Confederate flag in this context may be equal to sympathizing with the Southernrock aesthetic.

And there are as others pointed out the vast use of the nigger-motherfucker idiom which is rendered neutral and doesn't mean what it sounds like. Like everything else, semiotically imbued, nothing means what it is meant to mean in the first place.

When the Japs surrendered, the damned Yankees forced a new Constitution on them, telling them they no longer had to consider the Emperor a living God, and could now bow to him and actually look at him in the face. They then adopted baseball, corndogs and adeptly returned to their imperial ways in a more subtle form; outright capitalism. The krauts were ordered to do the same, and rid themselves of an offensive army like the Japs had to and eradicate all the symbols of the Old World order. They then dug up the old machinery they had stashed around the Wolfsburg factory and started producing the beetles that the pre-war Volk toiled endlessly to procure for their own individual selves in true American dream fashion.

Symbols are pretty much like cymbals, they can be sweet or grating depending on the hour of the day or night, it's all about context.

But Wes, don't serve me the same argument about the conflagration [[confederate flag ration) deal in the context of South Carolina's state capitol grounds.

p.s.: No Japanese, African-Americans, Germans, or straight up Americans were hurt by the shorthand used above.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-19-15, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

...snip...Symbols are pretty much like cymbals, they can be sweet or grating depending on the hour of the day or night, it's all about context.

But Wes, don't serve me the same argument about the conflagration [[confederate flag ration) deal in the context of South Carolina's state capitol grounds.

p.s.: No Japanese, African-Americans, Germans, or straight up Americans were hurt by the shorthand used above.

Canny.... I've no idea what a 'conflagration' is... but as I've posted, I'm quite pleased that SC's democratically elected representatives found the wisdom to remove the offensive flag. It has no place as a government 'cymbal'.

As to your shorthand... I did enjoy reading it. You missed the shorthand for the Mouchian family... but I wouldn't have minded. Sticks and stones, as they say.

**canuck** · July-19-15, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Canny.... I've no idea what a 'conflagration' is... but as I've posted, I'm quite pleased that SC's democratically elected representatives found the wisdom to remove the offensive flag. It has no place as a government 'cymbal'.

As to your shorthand... I did enjoy reading it. You missed the shorthand for the Mouchian family... but I wouldn't have minded. Sticks and stones, as they say.

Glad you enjoyed it. I think symbols take on different meanings in time and space and therefore we can't know all about them. The little matter of the swastika and how it has travelled far and wide through the ages and suddenly took on a sinister meaning for a period of modern history says it all.

I guess by your post that you are Armenian. All the best to you!

**aj3647** · July-20-15, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Serious questions. Cause I want to understand your thinking.

Is Kid Rock racist [[in your opinion)?

Does defending his use of the flag make him racist?

What does he have to do to prove that he's not a racist?

Is racism curable?

Please don't think I'm joking here. Especially with the last one. I know what people around these places think of me. But serious questions.

Racism is not some binary "yes/no" dynamic. There's a spectrum that people fall on. I don't know what Kid Rock is, I can't peer into his mind. I googled and tried to find if he had made any statements in the past that could be construed as racist. I didn't find anything, so I have no reason to objectively suspect him of anything and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Is racism curable? I don't know. For some, depending on where they fall on the spectrum, I think their ignorance can be cured with knowledge. I grew up in a suburb, went to a majority-white school, I was sheltered. It wasn't until I went to Wayne State that I was really exposed to black people in significant numbers. I didn't hate black people, but I was ignorant as to the struggles they deal with. In my ignorance, I was part of the problem. I can't walk a mile in their shoes, but I can listen to them tell me what it's like from their perspective, which so many white people are so quick to dismiss out of hand. I can be open to their perspective, I can try my best to understand, and through that to help enact positive change.

But the problem is, and it's on display in this very thread, is that so many white people get so immediatley defensive at the mere suggestion of the existence of white racism. The level of "white victimhood" on display in this thread is shocking. The "woe is me, I'm a poor oppressed white male" argument doesn't get any traction with me. Look at how angrily defensive several white men got in this thread when they were told that, as white men, maybe they're not the best gauges of how much racism exists in American. That white men aren't in the best position to tell Black America that "racism isn't a problem anymore...because we don't see any!" White men were told that they aren't the end-all-be-all authority on racism in America, and they IMMEIDATELY adopted a white male victimhood mentality.

**Wesley Mouch** · July-20-15, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by aj3647

Racism is not some binary "yes/no" dynamic. There's a spectrum that people fall on. I don't know what Kid Rock is, I can't peer into his mind. I googled and tried to find if he had made any statements in the past that could be construed as racist. I didn't find anything, so I have no reason to objectively suspect him of anything and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Is racism curable? I don't know. For some, depending on where they fall on the spectrum, I think their ignorance can be cured with knowledge. I grew up in a suburb, went to a majority-white school, I was sheltered. It wasn't until I went to Wayne State that I was really exposed to black people in significant numbers. I didn't hate black people, but I was ignorant as to the struggles they deal with. In my ignorance, I was part of the problem. I can't walk a mile in their shoes, but I can listen to them tell me what it's like from their perspective, which so many white people are so quick to dismiss out of hand. I can be open to their perspective, I can try my best to understand, and through that to help enact positive change.

But the problem is, and it's on display in this very thread, is that so many white people get so immediatley defensive at the mere suggestion of the existence of white racism. The level of "white victimhood" on display in this thread is shocking. The "woe is me, I'm a poor oppressed white male" argument doesn't get any traction with me. Look at how angrily defensive several white men got in this thread when they were told that, as white men, maybe they're not the best gauges of how much racism exists in American. That white men aren't in the best position to tell Black America that "racism isn't a problem anymore...because we don't see any!" White men were told that they aren't the end-all-be-all authority on racism in America, and they IMMEIDATELY adopted a white male victimhood mentality.

I think you've pretty much proven the existence of reverse racism. People are suspicious of being labelled on the basis of group members rather than their individual characteristics. Their 'whiteness' as perceived by others is their defining social characteristic. Do you think its appropriate to judge people on the basis of their whiteness rather than their actions? Can you see how this is destructive to everyone?

**aj3647** · July-20-15, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I think you've pretty much proven the existence of reverse racism. People are suspicious of being labelled on the basis of group members rather than their individual characteristics. Their 'whiteness' as perceived by others is their defining social characteristic. Do you think its appropriate to judge people on the basis of their whiteness rather than their actions? Can you see how this is destructive to everyone?

I've not judged you or anyone else on the color of your skin, but on your words and opinions expressed in this very thread.

Wesley, your whiteness isn't your problem. Your blatant and unrepentant ignorance is the problem. To paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr, I judge you not on the color of your skin, but on the content of your posts.

Let me ask you this. Would you tell a woman that you know what childbirth feels like? Would you tell a woman that the pain of childbirth is "no big deal?" That if she says the pain is excruciating, that's she just exaggerating? Why not? Would it be because, as a man, you can never know what childbirth is like? That that's a fundamental fact of biology? And that, as a man, maybe your opinion on what childbirth feels like is not the definitive one?

Now take it one step further, can you understand how it might actually be offensive to a woman for you to suggest that not only can you understand what childbirth is like, but that your perceptions on it are actually SUPERIOR to hers? To the point where you actually dismiss the opinion of a woman who has given birth...on the subject of childbirth...in favor of your opinion? Can you see how that might come across as arrogant, ill-informed, ignorant, perhaps even misogynist?

Now, this is the part where I would assume that you would say "no" to the above and then I would say "now apply that to the black experience of racism", but since it's you Wesley, I can't make that assumption. You, being you, might actually think that you know the experience of childbirth better than a woman who has actually given birth. So I won't make that assumption, I'll just wait for you to answer the question first.

**Richard** · July-20-15, 12:55 PM

[QUOTE=aj3647;484262]Wesley, your whiteness isn't your problem. Your blatant and unrepentant ignorance is the problem. To paraphrase Martin Luther King Jr, I judge you not on the color of your skin, but on the content of your posts. [QUOTE]

Well I am glad you took the hint of the 1963 speech,maybe a bit disappointed that the one word you chose to replace is the one you seem to understand the least.

Back to the flag and what it represents to some.Another part of the civil war was the south's view of northern government intervention into what they felt was their individual states rights.

So are there not today certain political leanings that feel the government is to intrusive when it comes to state and individual rights?

You see examples here on this site where some who live in the city feel Lansing is to intrusive in the cities rights. Same thing.

Go way back to those times when the north was heavy density industrial and the south was rural where 6% of the total population were the actual slave owners,large land owners with thousands of acres.

Take the average Joe farmer,it would take him a 3 day horseback ride to go into town for vittles,if he even went.So what was said or what was it that would cause him to respond to the call to arms.I would highly doubt as he was not effected by or could even afford slaves,so maybe it was a threat that went something like if you do not the northerners will take your land.Or something like that.

My past relatives fought and died on the northern side just as they did in the revolutionary war and unfortunately because of the times past it is difficult to know what each individual reason was, but what ever it was they believed in something enough to give their life for it,maybe I am wrong to think that no matter what side one was on they deserve the respect of what this country was founded on,the ability for one to act of his or her beliefs.

It was not like England at the time or Russia or other countries that said that you will believe in what I tell you to believe in.

The flag also represents the questioning of Government authority,should we not question authority from time to time? What has happened in the past that says it is okay to allow totalitarian power of government?

Racism and the flag represents so many individuals,all with free speech and thoughts that see things so many different ways.

**old guy** · July-20-15, 02:38 PM

[QUOTE=Richard;484281][QUOTE=aj3647;484262]
My past relatives fought and died on the northern side just as they did in the revolutionary war and unfortunately because of the times past it is difficult to know what each individual reason was, but what ever it was they believed in something enough to give their life for it,maybe I am wrong to think that no matter what side one was on they deserve the respect of what this country was founded on,the ability for one to act of his or her beliefs.

QUOTE]

It's possible that during the civil war they didn't believe in anything, but were drafted.

**G-DDT** · July-20-15, 09:37 PM

I find the earlier image of the American flag and what was written on it, far more off-beat and congestive than any of my loooong posts [[but some of you are quickly narrowing the gap with this thread). I think it's odd that the person who scrawled on it about the Catholic Church lumped them in with the evils of America. Check your history, and you will see from anti-papist attitudes of the fore-fathers, to the KKK, to the convent burnings in Massachusetts, to the Know-Nothings, to the Black Legion [[here in Michigan), to the anti-Catholicism of the prominently formidable Masonic presence in this country [[not every city or town I visited on my travels had a cathedral, but they almost always had a temple or lodge), to the fact that the only Catholic President ever elected didn't even get to complete his term, all the way to constant bashing of Catholics [[and Amish) in media, "comedies", and "Learning Channels" [[with little retraction and clearing of names when a Priest is proven innocent)-Catholics have had their run with being persecuted quite a bit in this country [[not as bad as many minorities, but regardless, if anyone wants to disregard their intrinsic ability to improve on their rebellious nature in favor of being a jolly, little conformist get on the popular Catholic/Amish/Religion bashing bandwagon).

**G-DDT** · July-20-15, 09:48 PM

Also, removing an item is one thing-and I realize ritual is an important thing for solidifying and providing closure to a matter of transition-however, I've always despised effigism. Not only is it a creative waste of time and showboating [[when activists could be applying themselves in a diplomatically more direct and less hostile manner) for some, but it flirts too close to the kind of rampant, unwieldy mob-mentality that can get quickly out of control [[which an ugly system hopes to see discredited), get swayed into something murderous and genocidal, or at the very least, coaxed into burning books [[like Fundamentalist Christians did in the south-just as Nazis did in Germany). If anything should demonstrate it's destructive nature, let it be coming from an atrocious system that needs to acknowledge a need to change, not from those trying to constructively change it.

I enjoyed my time working with passionate activists in Boston/Cambridge. Yet, I went to one party that quickly unraveled into a backyard flag-burning that left a bad taste in my mouth [[all the while folks are snapping phonepics, and I'm thinking-whoa! get out of the way.). I wanted no involvement.

**hdbuys** · July-26-15, 10:17 AM

What wonderful music are you listening to? Music is universal...just because you don't like it does not make it suck. He doesn't even display the reb flag and I don't blame him for telling Sharpton and his drones to kiss his ass.