The Kids That Are No More Over The Gun That Wasn't.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

For one thing, it wasn't a 'major chase' despite having major consequences. I'm not even sure it qualified as a chase at all. It has taken me longer than 75 seconds to type this post. Is 75 seconds even time to initiate, declare by radio, etc.?

Or is the 75 seconds in error? Were they 'chasing' for some time before calling it in?

The basic question is the reason. They 'thought' they had a gun. How many citizens are killed in this country every year for just that reason without a gun ever being found?

How can a passing car even see inside a Camaro? All you can see is the occupants' heads.

Good call...Camaro's have very low roof lines, so maybe the officers thought they saw a gun and really didn't. Tragic circumstance all around. I feel for the families of those innocent kids, just playing in their yard.

[Wesley Mouch]

...

At the end of the day tho, it's a case of moral calculus. Fundamentally, I think that effective policing relies on cops being figures of authority, and not just of power. Anything which they do to diminish the respect they hold [[abusing / injuring / killing people, unnecessarily shooting dogs, ignoring traffic laws for convenience not just for emergencies, etc) undermines their authority. These actions make it harder to respect them, even though they do not change the fact that I have to submit to their power. Ultimately, I think that effective policing requires that police be fairly unimpeachable in their behavior.

Its also a case of 'practical calculus'. For about 2,000 hours a year, thousands of local cops engage in law enforcement. Policing is hard work. We need to understand that cops are human. We sit here in judgement. We both need cops to be 'fairly unimpeachable', but we also don't want them to become entirely risk adverse.

Has every decision you've made been right? When you made a mistake raising your kid, or at your job should it have ended your career? This doesn't mean that we ignore bad cops. But we also don't demand perfection. They are human. And we need them so much. Let's not chase away to good ones, too.

[Honky Tonk]

Good call...Camaro's have very low roof lines, so maybe the officers thought they saw a gun and really didn't. Tragic circumstance all around. I feel for the families of those innocent kids, just playing in their yard.

Good call? If the asshole was so innocent, why did he decide to take off @ 75+ mph through a residential neighborhood with total disregard not only for his own life but everyone else's?

[firstandten]

Last I heard, the DPD hasn't had a helicopter in years [[cuz "hard times and stuff")...

That said, I do have a concern no one [[for whatever reason) has raised. I agree the police were ultimately in the right and doing their job. But was a major police chase worth only what they suspected to be someone holding a gun? Relatively speaking, especially in Detroit, it seems like such a trivial crime to waste so much time and manpower on.

We really don't get all of the information from the DPD, however it may be possible that if the police really saw a gun if could be indicative of a gang/drug beef going on in that area in which they felt something bad was getting ready to happen. The reason I say that is that I heard that the murder rate has gone up in the city after a downward trend. The increase may be insignificant statistically or it could indicate a drug war going on.

[Wesley Mouch]

Last I heard, the DPD hasn't had a helicopter in years [[cuz "hard times and stuff")...

That said, I do have a concern no one [[for whatever reason) has raised. I agree the police were ultimately in the right and doing their job. But was a major police chase worth only what they suspected to be someone holding a gun? Relatively speaking, especially in Detroit, it seems like such a trivial crime to waste so much time and manpower on.

You don't know in advance that its gonna be a 'major' chase w/ the suspect mowing down children.

Do you suggest we give gun-toting drivers/passengers as free pass? If not, what is the standard? Do you only chase up to 40mph? And how would you feel when the suspect kills someone with that gun? Better?

[cla1945]

With the "no snitch" attitude people have in Detroit, the gun could have been handed off to someone when the driver jumped out of the car to run. The bottom line is the driver was totally responsible for this horrible murder of the children, possibly another child may die as well. He had a very arrogant attitude at his bail hearing, could have cared less about what he did, no remorse shown at all.

If the police are not allowed to do their job by trying their best to keep guns out of the hands of criminals in Detroit, then anarchy will prevail. I find it amazing that every time something like this happens, the criminals are hardly mentioned when a Police Officer is involved...whatever happened, [[in this case two innocent babies are murdered), people are quick to blame the Police instead of the animals who were REALLY responsible.

[Ray1936]

Old adage. A police officer must make up his mind what to do in a split second. Then it takes all the courts in the land, up to the Supreme Court, years to decide whether he/she was right or wrong.

In my 25 years with DPD, I made one bad decision. That was having lunch in the Western Market. Man, was I sick.

[cla1945]

Old adage. A police officer must make up his mind what to do in a split second. Then it takes all the courts in the land, up to the Supreme Court, years to decide whether he/she was right or wrong.

In my 25 years with DPD, I made one bad decision. That was having lunch in the Western Market. Man, was I sick.

You're 100% correct Ray. Police Officers don't have the luxury of taking time to ask a question like "Are you bipolar?"; "Have you taken your meds today?"; "Do you have any mental problems?"; "Is that a toy gun that you painted the orange end black?"; "Are you really going to stick me with that knife that you have raised?". Split second decisions are made every day and people have to realize that...but they don't. There are always going to be the Monday morning quarterbacks who will say that the poor thug was mentally ill or he was deaf and couldn't hear the command to put down the gun or knife; or he pointed a toy gun at the cop so why did the cop shoot him; why didn't he shoot him in the leg or arm?

Not only do the officers have to be physicians, psychiatrists who can psychoanalyze a thug in a split second and sharp shooters....now they have to be mind readers.

As for your bad decision, thank God that was the extent of it...an upset stomach. What's your thoughts on the way the world is today versus the way it was when you were on?

[313WX]

We really don't get all of the information from the DPD, however it may be possible that if the police really saw a gun if could be indicative of a gang/drug beef going on in that area in which they felt something bad was getting ready to happen. The reason I say that is that I heard that the murder rate has gone up in the city after a downward trend. The increase may be insignificant statistically or it could indicate a drug war going on.

As far whether there was any indication of a gang/drug beef, the last I checked, in America, an officer can not arrest someone BEFORE a crime is committed, unless there's enough probable cause to warrant the arrest.

Now true, it was the driver's responsibility to stop when the police turned of their sirens instead of speeding off [[and he obviously did so because he was parolee). And yes, there's no question the kids were killed because of his wreckless driving.

That said, here is DPD's policy on chases:

“Members involved in a pursuit must question whether the seriousness of the violation warrants continuation of the pursuit. A pursuit shall be discontinued when, in the judgment of the primary unit, there is a clear and present danger to the public which outweighs the need for immediate apprehension of the violator.

Officers must keep in mind that a vehicle pursuit has the same potential for serious injury or death as the use of fatal force. . . .Officers must place the protection of human life above all other considerations.”

What bothers me the most is we still can't even get the police officers in this town to respond to home burglaries or carjackings in a reasonable time [[crime that HAVE actually been committed), yet in this instance we see the same police going out of their way to pursue what may not have been for a crime that was committed, as far as the police officers knew admittedly knew before beginning the pursuit.

[Wesley Mouch]

...What bothers me the most is we still can't even get the police officers in this town to respond to home burglaries or carjackings in a reasonable time [[crime that HAVE actually been committed), yet in this instance we see the same police going out of their way to pursue what may not have been for a crime that was committed, as far as the police officers knew admittedly knew before beginning the pursuit.

Well, that's kind of the definition of pursuit... going out of your way?

So you are unhappy that the police are enforcing laws. They see a handgun law being broken. They go get donuts. They turn down the radio when they hear about a kid killed in a drug gunfight. No pursuit. No risk. Easy, peasy.

You are actually complaining because you want crime fought... but you don't want them to be proactive. You want them to let some thug brandish a weapon and you want to WAIT until the crime's been committed.

You had reactive policing for years. Didn't seem to do the job. Craig tries to inspire his troops. I don't get it.

Sure, there are response time problems. But you seriously suggest they should ignore crimes in progress? I'm stunned.

[softailrider]

We really don't get all of the information from the DPD, however it may be possible that if the police really saw a gun if could be indicative of a gang/drug beef going on in that area in which they felt something bad was getting ready to happen. The reason I say that is that I heard that the murder rate has gone up in the city after a downward trend. The increase may be insignificant statistically or it could indicate a drug war going on.

There's been a drug war going on for decades. I was never aware of any let up as far as that goes.

[313WX]

But you seriously suggest they should ignore crimes in progress?

How do we know for sure [[or who even said) there was a crime in progress?

[Ray1936]

As for your bad decision, thank God that was the extent of it...an upset stomach. What's your thoughts on the way the world is today versus the way it was when you were on?

Well, I really can't compare today's Detroit with the Detroit I knew 40-50 years ago. But overall, with the exception in giant advances in electronics [[computers in cars, etc.), police work is pretty much the same today as it was then. I am somewhat amused when, at a crime scene, it seems like there is one officer assigned there with a roll or two of yellow barricade tape that goes up all over the damn place. We just asked folks to move back if they encroached a scene. Also, it seems like they shut down traffic completely just to investigate a fender bender. Our mantra was always -- except in exceptional cases -- get traffic flowing again. But I digress.

Over all, you can have two kinds of policing. Responsive or Pro-active. Detroit back then was pretty pro-active. We'd prowl the alleys all night looking for a B&E, and if we didn't find one, when the owner called, the rest of the shift would be all over you for not finding it. I guess those days are gone in Detroit.

I think the liberal media has put policing in a bad light, unjustly. Maybe if your car is being carjacked you should call a TV reporter instead, who will talk the bad man into giving you your car back and then take him to a soup kitchen for a hot meal.

Didn't mean to ramble. In a nutshell, I'm glad I'm retired.

[gvidas]

Its also a case of 'practical calculus'. For about 2,000 hours a year, thousands of local cops engage in law enforcement. Policing is hard work. We need to understand that cops are human. We sit here in judgement. We both need cops to be 'fairly unimpeachable', but we also don't want them to become entirely risk adverse.

Has every decision you've made been right? When you made a mistake raising your kid, or at your job should it have ended your career? This doesn't mean that we ignore bad cops. But we also don't demand perfection. They are human. And we need them so much. Let's not chase away to good ones, too.

I make mistakes all the time. But I'm not entrusted with a gun, nor am I paid to protect the public. The standards are higher for police.

Moreover, police are our employees. If I'm installing trim in my own house, I know the joints won't be perfect. But if I hire a carpenter to do trim in my house, I expect them to do a great job, and I reserve the right to criticize their work. Whether or not I could have done better myself is immaterial, because the point of hiring a professional is to get professional results.

It is entirely possible to hold a profession to high standards without undermining the job satisfaction of people in that field. We might have to pay them better, and we might have to find a better way to manage them.

Some good further reading:

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...igan/29405683/

In the last two decades, many large cities, including Orlando, Milwaukee and Las Vegas, have ended high-speed pursuits, except in the instances when a violent felony has occurred. Los Angeles County does not allow pursuits in the case of traffic violations.

"It has reduced the number of crashes and fatalities by 90%," said Lt. James LaRochelle, of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, which oversees 1.5 million residents and 41 million visitors a year. The department began restricting pursuits in 2005. Since most pursuits start with traffic stops, Las Vegas police take down the license plate and eventually send investigators to the address for an arrest. In 2005, they had 254 pursuits. Last year, the number had dropped to 35.

...

Geoff Alpert, a criminologist at the University of South Carolina, has been researching police pursuits for 30 years and is considered the nation's leading expert on the matter. Alpert said every department should restrict pursuits to only violent felonies.

"These policies are not grounded in fact," Alpert said. "There are two myths out there. That there is a body in the trunk. In other words, they've committed some horrible crime. But usually these are just young people making a horrible choice. And secondly, that everybody will run if these policies are restricted. There is no evidence that more people run."

In Orlando, police reported 107 suspects fled out of 40,000 police stops between March 2004 and February 2005, the first year the city made public its restricted policy, a ratio that has remained consistent over the last decade. Alpert says research supports that trend.

[Gpwrangler]

Has everyone forgotten who had his foot on the gas in the Camaro? Seems some crimes matter, and some don't.

[Scottathew]

To think that he actually may have had a gun isn't too far out of the realm of possibilities. You've got bottom-barrel scum that's been on the run for years and he has no qualms about driving very quickly on residential streets, putting lives in danger.

One time a police office pulled me over before any crime was committed. I was in Litchfield, MI and I was pulled over under suspicion of drunk driving.

You know what happened? I pulled over immediately, completely cooperated with the police officer. Didn't argue. Didn't get upset. I kept my hand in plain sight at all time and asked for permission to go to my glove box to get the requested documents.

The police officer did come up to my car with his hand on his holstered gun, but he quickly realized that his caution wasn't needed because of how cooperative I was being.

Once the officer was able to tell I had nothing to drink he let me go on my way.

Whether or not this scum was driving around waving a gun around is irrelevant. The cops thought they saw something, and he ran, because he'd be going back to prison even if he cooperated.

I'm not quite sure how people are getting upset with the cops here. It's so amazingly obvious that Lorenzo Harris' action are what caused this tragedy.

The same people that are complaining about the cops for chasing him would be the same ones complaining if they didn't do anything and he went on to commit a murder.

Some people just want to blame, blame, blame, blame. I don't get why, but they want to take ANY opportunity to take a stab at police.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Good call? If the asshole was so innocent, why did he decide to take off @ 75+ mph through a residential neighborhood with total disregard not only for his own life but everyone else's?

I was responding to the post that said you could barely see someone's head sitting in a Camaro, so I don't know what you're tripping about. Nobody said he was innocent, learn to read. It's obvious that he was a idiot driving that fast down a residential street, smh.........

[RaumVogel]

It's hard to believe that any sizeable city doesn't have a helicopter at it's disposal 24/7.

[Vic01]

It's hard to believe that any sizeable city doesn't have a helicopter at it's disposal 24/7.

...even in a city that has been sliding into bankruptcy for years, is barely on the other side of bankruptcy, and is still struggling, right? I wonder what the "on call" staffing costs would be? then let's add in the actual pilots flying hours, then include fuel and maintenance costs...
Where is the money supposed to come from?

[Honky Tonk]

I was responding to the post that said you could barely see someone's head sitting in a Camaro, so I don't know what you're tripping about. Nobody said he was innocent, learn to read. It's obvious that he was a idiot driving that fast down a residential street, smh.........

Maybe learn to post? You seem to be good @ back-pedaling. Hear any rattling during the shaking?

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Maybe learn to post? You seem to be good @ back-pedaling. Hear any rattling during the shaking?

Who are you the internet police? If you have a bug up you're _ss concerning my posts, don't read them, as I surely will ignore yours. Real simple .........

[Honky Tonk]

Who are you the internet police? If you have a bug up you're _ss concerning my posts, don't read them, as I will surely ignore yours. Real simple .........

NP, I'm not a big fan of reading fiction.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

NP, I'm not a big fan of reading fiction.

You're a clown. Nothing else needs to be said. Good day.

[Honky Tonk]

You're a clown. Nothing else needs to be said. Good day.

Have a great day, Kid.