Interesting Article On Gores and Detroit

[emu steve]

They bring their urban with them to the 'burbs...

[Cliffy]

I know John Salley lived in that mansion off of 7 and woodward but where did Fedorov live in Detroit. I don't recall him living in the city.

[TTime]

I know John Salley lived in that mansion off of 7 and woodward but where did Fedorov live in Detroit. I don't recall him living in the city.

I could be wrong but I thought he lived in The Riverfront Towers Apartments next to The Joe when he first moved here. If memory serves a few of the decent Wings lived there when they first moved here. I think Salley was from Brooklyn and Federov was from the bustling Soviet city Pskov so naturally they were both trying to appease their urban bones by living in the city.

[Hypestyles]

Thanks.

As I posted somewhere, basketball is an URBAN game. It is not designed to be played in Trenton, AH, Canton, etc.

Man, anyone who has been to a Wizards' playoff game knows that. Folks love the Verizon Center and Gallery Place area. It is the urban environment Detroiters, including the Ilitches, would dream. Subway to the arena, bar hop before and after, food places galore. Like NYC.


And, I'd assume, the NBA players want to be downtown. They have 'urban bones'. Would a James every want to play in say Green Bay?

I'll repeat a point I've made before about the teams, arena area and Ilitch holdings: Lot of the future will be in the hands of Miriam and Chris.

I don't think Miriam is big into sports.

When the day comes, and control passes for the Tigers and Wings, things have to go smoothly.

I doubt there is any interest in acquiring the Pistons now [[or even something small like a soccer team).

One of the more patently bizarre statements I read from Drew Sharp a year or so, concerning lagging attendance at the Palace, was that [Metro] Detroit [[paraphrasing) "just [[isn't) much of a basketball town." It was a statement that just seemed to totally ignore [[or a slap to) the urban fanbase.
If the Pistons' stadium were back in Detroit proper, pricey seats notwithstanding, I'm sure there would be a more consistently high attendance rate, even in seasons were there's no clear playoff run in sight..

[TTime]

I could be wrong but I thought he lived in The Riverfront Towers Apartments next to The Joe when he first moved here. If memory serves a few of the decent Wings lived there when they first moved here. I think Salley was from Brooklyn and Federov was from the bustling Soviet city Pskov so naturally they were both trying to appease their urban bones by living in the city.

...it looks like The Pizza Man put him and others in that building when they were starting out so he could keep an eye on them and avoid another Petr Klima situation. If it was by choice or not, Federov and other Wings from the 90's lived in Detroit

[emu steve]

Wow, another article, but much stronger about the Pistons possibly moving downtown...

I am surprised about the writer, suggesting a "Hail Mary" option of building another arena at the jail site.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...ream/28667419/

Couple of telling paragraphs:

Gilbert is pushing for Gores to move downtown. Gilbert built Quicken Loans Arena in downtown Cleveland after buying the Cavaliers and moved the team from Richfield Coliseum, about 20 miles south.

"It's hard to compete not being in an urban corridor," Gilbert told The Detroit News last week. "You have to sell more than just the game. You have to sell the entire experience, and you can't get that in a field [[in Auburn Hills). You gotta get that in an urban corridor, where there are restaurants or casinos or other entertainment venues."

If the Pistons move, The Palace would not close. It would remain as a special-events and concert venue.

[emu steve]

Hockey and Basketball arena's are different.... and there are sight lines/seating issues to contend with when a stadium is set up for both. Brooklyn's Barclay's Arena is getting a retrofit to add on the NY Islanders Hockey games.

So I think of the talking between the Gores and Ilitch organizations as a way for them to make some changes to the new arena configuration now, should basketball ever move to that facility, either occasionally or full time.

Smart move.

I think the problem at Barclay's is that it is a basketball arena retrofitted for hockey. That's tough.

Typical 'multi-purpose' arenas are built for hockey and then additional seating placed for basketball [[because of the size differential between a hockey rink and basketball court).

Shouldn't be a problem unless there were design issues... [[and that shouldn't happen).

[emu steve]

I'm going to keep posting these articles, as they all are saying something different and covering a number of different topics [[besides the 'P' word - Pistons):

http://www.freep.com/story/money/bus...tons/28595777/

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/spo...city/28578363/

[Dbest]

It feels like something is going to happen outside of "a few games downtown". This is an "all or nothing" scenario. Do they even need to test the theory that Detroit is a better destination for sports fans than A.H. ?

Is Gores playing both sides and trying to leverage a better deal? Whether that be with Illitch and the arena project, or a new stadium with Gilbert maybe. I'd prefer a new stadium so that jail is squashed forever.

I think the banners should be trucked downtown in a series of giant plexiglass cases so people can see them. Maybe Duggan riding shotgun and flippn LBP the bird on the way out. Roll em down Woodward for their true homecoming. People would line the street for that, not to mention it would make national media rolls and further relay the message: Detroit is re-inhabiting...

One more thing, let's pretend another stadium were built for the Pistons, as well as an MLS stadium at some point in the next 5 years. How strong could a Detroit Olympic bid start to look if the neighborhoods turned around in the next 10-15 years? Just a thought..

[Junjie]

It feels like something is going to happen outside of "a few games downtown". This is an "all or nothing" scenario. Do they even need to test the theory that Detroit is a better destination for sports fans than A.H. ?

Is Gores playing both sides and trying to leverage a better deal? Whether that be with Illitch and the arena project, or a new stadium with Gilbert maybe. I'd prefer a new stadium so that jail is squashed forever.

Based on prior threads, I'm not touching the Olympics with a ten-foot pole, but you seem to be spot on with the above.

Pistons Playing in City is Tom Gores' Dream

The headline's a bit stronger than the actual content but Foster claims the two options are as you laid out - Illitch Arena or jail site with Gilbert. Pretty much the only relevant thing Gores says to that is "We are going to charter Arn to study that [[moving downtown). It will be one of his first things."

Some other nuggets.:

"We have to pull everybody together. When you look at downtown, there is a jail in the middle of everything. There are things that don't make sense."

"It is incumbent for us to bring it all together. I do believe we can. Sometimes it helps to be the new kid on the block because there is less history. We can't be in the same house working against each other."

I'd hate to see another arena built, though if they went that route it's better than the jail at least. But as an armchair planner I'd prefer to keep it all in one place and try to build on that. Of course who knows what will look best to Mr. Gores. We all thought the Palace was too lucrative to leave, so...

[southen]

Two new arenas less than a mile apart just seems asinine. I am against the jail site as much as the next person but can't we come up with something better than another unnecessary arena? Gores can have his team play in Illitch's arena and take the money he saves not building his own on redeveloping the area around it.

[Dbest]

Two new arenas less than a mile apart just seems asinine. I am against the jail site as much as the next person but can't we come up with something better than another unnecessary arena? Gores can have his team play in Illitch's arena and take the money he saves not building his own on redeveloping the area around it.

No doubt another stadium seems asinine. I think there is a consensus on this board about the overall reality of stadiums/arena, they are dead chunks during off days. That being said, if this was some homerun project like a stadium in-cased by residential and retail offerings then fine. I cant judge Gores/Gilbert on what Illitch/Ford have done with there complexes. I would have much more faith in Gilbert, and Gores is always at Staples Center watching games so I would think he would want something similar.

I personally think Gores wants a Staples Center like development with Gilbert, I wouldn't be opposed to that. I would love to see this project dueling with Illitch for ancillary developments. It would force Illitch to step up his game or get exposed. I just dont know if another stadium referendum would pass, although this involves relocation from another city so it might have more pull considering they would be fresh meat for city tax rolls...

[Dbest]

More than likely Gores is being courted by Gilbert and Illitch for their respective projects. Gores and Magic are friends as well, maybe Magic will enter the fray and try to entice him to the old fairgrounds project?

Or what about the riverfront spot now occupied by the Joe? Gores might have the magic ticket[[no pun intended) owning the Pistons and getting an awesome deal to build his dream. It seems like it could go in many different directions...

Maybe this is why he is a billionaire? He saw this coming when he bought the team. Everything since that day has simply been posturing/facade for this upcoming pinnacle moment. That new scoreboard is an easy move but gives him leverage, "see we want to stay in Palace!", meanwhile they already had the cost figures on relocating it 20 miles away.

[emu steve]

Couple of my thoughts [[related to posts above):

1). Surprise, surprise... I'm not in favor of another arena in downtown. I do hope Gilbert can get the jail site and do something commercial with it.

2). My view and I hope this is a 'new thought' for posters here: I'd like to see more equal number of dates both sides of Woodward. What I mean 1/2 Comerica and Ford Field and 1/2 at the new arena. Say 100+ dates at Comerica/Ford Field and 100+ at the new arena [[could go 125 - 150 with both the Pistons and Wings).

3). The 125 - 150 arena dates [[assuming the Pistons move to the arena the number of Pistons/Wings games would approach 100) would turbo charge the 'west of Woodward' area. Hockey and basketball fans are noted for liking to eat and drink before or after games [[or both). 125 - 150 arena dates is 'critical mass' for developers. Toss in a soccer stadium and that number increases by say another 25 - 30. Who wouldn't want to own a bar or eatery say 1 or 2 blocks from an arena with 150 - 175 dates???

[Cincinnati_Kid]

I had a little chuckle when I read your "urban bones" comment as I pictured a NBA player with a multimillion dollar contract choosing a not ready for prime time downtown over a mansion on Orchard Lake or or a pad in downtown Birmingham. Those so called urban bones apparently go bye bye when someone has the world by the short ones and the means to satisfy their ego. It also doesn't help that there aren't many [[if any at all) truly high end living options downtown. I'm not in the biz of guessing where someone wants to live but other than John Salley and Sergei Federov way back in he day I can't think of a major local athlete who has lived in the city recently. Someone please educate me if I'm wrong and try not to make it some player no one has heard of.

I can't think of anyone recently, you have to go way back, but there have been a few athletes who have lived in Detroit proper. Kevin Porter who played for the Pistons in the late 70's, lived in Rosedale Park, as a matter of fact, the late Emmanuel Steward purchased his home when he got traded to Washington. Derrick Coleman is another who lived in the very same neighborhood, he grew up in. Leon Spinks who isn't originally from here, lived in Rosedale as well. Besides the aforementioned Salley and Federov, these are the only ones I could come up with, most live in the GP's or Oakland County burbs.

[Dbest]

I'd rather have different entities competing at this point. The ramifications seem so much greater if Gores did his own thing. Riding Illitchs coat-tail while propping him up will do little to cement the legacy Gores seems to be aspiring for according to these articles. Good for Illitch and Midtown if he moves the Pistons to new Olympia Stadium but the impact could have been greater felt somewhere else in the city. Whether its fail jail, fair grounds or anywhere else.

I personally would like to see a stadium built at the old fairgrounds, could help build momentum for M-1 to run up to 8 mile. Gores just donated 250 large to Magic's Lansing School initiative .Maybe Gores could fix up Dumars field house, he says he wants "gymnasiums" for kids?..
I know, I know, its far fetched.

Nonetheless, this all seems to be the beginning of a pretty juicy story.

Knowing Gores, this a play for a better deal at the Illitch arena.

[Junjie]

Or what about the riverfront spot now occupied by the Joe?

That was disposed of during bankruptcy, with the property being guaranteed to an insurer. It's supposedly going to be hotel/office.

...

2). My view and I hope this is a 'new thought' for posters here: I'd like to see more equal number of dates both sides of Woodward. What I mean 1/2 Comerica and Ford Field and 1/2 at the new arena. Say 100+ dates at Comerica/Ford Field and 100+ at the new arena [[could go 125 - 150 with both the Pistons and Wings).

3). The 125 - 150 arena dates [[assuming the Pistons move to the arena the number of Pistons/Wings games would approach 100) would turbo charge the 'west of Woodward' area. Hockey and basketball fans are noted for liking to eat and drink before or after games [[or both). 125 - 150 arena dates is 'critical mass' for developers. Toss in a soccer stadium and that number increases by say another 25 - 30. Who wouldn't want to own a bar or eatery say 1 or 2 blocks from an arena with 150 - 175 dates???

Isn't that a bit optimistic? Pistons + Red Wings would be 82 guaranteed regular season home dates. Both leagues play 8 preseason games I believe, so that's 8 more total home dates between both teams [[up to 90). Then, a typical 7-game playoff round probably averages about 3 games per round if we're homers and assume a lot of home ice/home court, but even if both teams made the finals in the same year you'd only be adding about 24 more dates. And that basically never happens.

So in a really good year with both teams making deep playoff runs, I think you'd be looking at more like 110 sports dates max. More typically it would probably be about 95-100. Not that we disagree on the larger point, but I think that reinforces why it would be much better to concentrate those events in one place. Even after accounting for concerts etc. the building will easily be empty for 1/2 to 2/3 of the year. Having two arenas means two sites that are empty for 75-80% of the year.

[Dbest]

I can't think of anyone recently, you have to go way back, but there have been a few athletes who have lived in Detroit proper. Kevin Porter who played for the Pistons in the late 70's, lived in Rosedale Park, as a matter of fact, the late Emmanuel Steward purchased his home when he got traded to Washington. Derrick Coleman is another who lived in the very same neighborhood, he grew up in. Leon Spinks who isn't originally from here, lived in Rosedale as well. Besides the aforementioned Salley and Federov, these are the only ones I could come up with, most live in the GP's or Oakland County burbs.

I've heard that Matt Stafford owns a condo in the Fort Shelby? Dont know if it's true...

[BankruptcyGuy]

I think an issue worth adding to the mix is the value of the Palace for all its non-sports events. If I recall correctly, the Palace had one of the highest utilization rates in the country. In fact, I remember a discussion saying that the stadium was the greater part of the purchase price [[as opposed to the franchise). It's also my understanding that franchises don't make bupkis in terms of cash flow.

Now that a new Joe Louis is on the way, that will certainly cut into the Palace's utilization rate, I would think. I like the Palace, but attending an event downtown would be much more appealing, in my opinion.

How do those factors play against each other? Who knows? It will be great to see the new RW stadium when built, though.

[Junjie]

I think an issue worth adding to the mix is the value of the Palace for all its non-sports events. If I recall correctly, the Palace had one of the highest utilization rates in the country. ...

Good point, looks like the Palace averages about 5 events per week through the next couple months. Much more than I thought. No idea how much New Olympia might hope to draw away.

[emu steve]

That was disposed of during bankruptcy, with the property being guaranteed to an insurer. It's supposedly going to be hotel/office.



Isn't that a bit optimistic? Pistons + Red Wings would be 82 guaranteed regular season home dates. Both leagues play 8 preseason games I believe, so that's 8 more total home dates between both teams [[up to 90). Then, a typical 7-game playoff round probably averages about 3 games per round if we're homers and assume a lot of home ice/home court, but even if both teams made the finals in the same year you'd only be adding about 24 more dates. And that basically never happens.

So in a really good year with both teams making deep playoff runs, I think you'd be looking at more like 110 sports dates max. More typically it would probably be about 95-100. Not that we disagree on the larger point, but I think that reinforces why it would be much better to concentrate those events in one place. Even after accounting for concerts etc. the building will easily be empty for 1/2 to 2/3 of the year. Having two arenas means two sites that are empty for 75-80% of the year.

What I was trying to say is that Wings & Pistons would be 90 - 100 dates per year.

What I was getting at is there are maybe 50 non-Wing/Piston dates per year for the new arena.

[boater4life]

Another stadium would be ridiculous. Is there even a city that has 4 major sports teams with 4 different stadiums? I doubt it. Need to combine Red wings and Pistons, that is the only thing that really makes sense. And it would be awesome to have to two together. The new red wings arena is already being built with a practice rink attached as well, so the two would cohabitate just fine.

[Dbest]

The more I think about this, the more it all starts to smell funny.

Think about it, Illitch says hes ready to build the new arena BUT He's going to need massive help from the city[[again) financing the project. His claims probably along the lines of: "The Wings only play so many games!" and in order to make it economically feasible from a business standpoint he needs some extra "concessions". Pun-intended, he gets a FULL concession rake!

He also gets all that PARKING REVENUE. Ok done deal, city helps him out. What does Detroit get? A renovated Eddystone and promises of future ancillary development. OK fair enough...

Fast forward less than a year into construction, all of sudden the media is publishing stories about the Pistons hiring someone to negotiate with the Illitchs? How story book!LOL

I believe this plan was hatched long ago between these billionaires and they will split concession revenue while Detroit gets none[[again) in those additional 81 Pistons games. Illitch's excuse will be that the Pistons came to the table after negotiations were finalized with the city.

"Deal's a Deal" type shit with the city getting hosed.

Think about it, Illitch gets half the concessions and all his usual parking revenue each Piston game. I might not believe it if it weren't Illitch involved.

[313WX]

I've heard that Matt Stafford owns a condo in the Fort Shelby? Dont know if it's true...

I actually heard it was the Book Cadillac...

[MSUguy]

No doubt another stadium seems asinine. I think there is a consensus on this board about the overall reality of stadiums/arena, they are dead chunks during off days. That being said, if this was some homerun project like a stadium in-cased by residential and retail offerings then fine. I cant judge Gores/Gilbert on what Illitch/Ford have done with there complexes. I would have much more faith in Gilbert, and Gores is always at Staples Center watching games so I would think he would want something similar.

I personally think Gores wants a Staples Center like development with Gilbert, I wouldn't be opposed to that. I would love to see this project dueling with Illitch for ancillary developments. It would force Illitch to step up his game or get exposed. I just dont know if another stadium referendum would pass, although this involves relocation from another city so it might have more pull considering they would be fresh meat for city tax rolls...

Even if it was "homerun", building a new arena just for the Pistons is silly. The public is already paying for one new area and I'm not fan of using public money for sports facilities and that exactly what will happened iif Gores get his own place. But we've crossed that bridge with the Wings arena. I want the Pistons downtown, but not at that price they are far more important things that kind of money could used for to improve the city.