Could Detroit be the next Ferguson or Baltimore?

[mtburb]

Now this? sheesh. An ICE officer?
ICE Officer ‘Faced With A Threat’ Fatally Shoots 20-Year-Old Man In Detroit
April 27, 2015 5:53 PM

A protest has been planned to start in a few minutes at Evergeen and Chicago, according to another news source. We'll see how that one ends up.

[401don]

Because the issue is so complex and because most episodes involving a fatality are complex, it requires time for the legal system to investigate. There is nothing wrong with protesting if one believes that there is not a proper investigation taking place or there is a cover up of some sort, but to immediately protest that there has been an injustice every time a life is taken is wrong.

[jackie5275]

Everything needs to be evaluated for its merit. Every instance of police lethal force, every protester, etc... Just because a cop killed someone doesn't mean it wasn't justified, and just because someone is in the street protesting doesn't mean that they're a thug, looter, rioter, etc...

Agreed, but some folks don't want to wait for that evaluation & its results.

[BankruptcyGuy]

This issue is a complex one.

- Police brutality is bad, and should be stopped
- Abuse of police power is bad, and should be stopped
- Being a criminal is bad, and they should be arrested, tried, and put in jail
- Running from the police is bad, and those doing it should be apprehended
- Not every instance of a black man dying at the hands of a white cop is an injustice
- Not every instance of a black man dying at the hand of a white cop is justifiable
- Black lives do matter
- Cops lives do matter
- There are instances where lethal force should and can be used
- There are instances where lethal force should NOT be used
- Cops improperly using lethal force should be prosecuted
- Thugs forcing cops to use lethal force should not be martyred
- Protesting is fine
- Burning police cars, looting stores, and beating people is not

Everything needs to be evaluated for its merit. Every instance of police lethal force, every protester, etc... Just because a cop killed someone doesn't mean it wasn't justified, and just because someone is in the street protesting doesn't mean that they're a thug, looter, rioter, etc...

Whoa. If you're going to ask me to THINK about things before jumping to a conclusion, well, I'm going to have to find a new message board.

[sumas]

Whoa. If you're going to ask me to THINK about things before jumping to a conclusion, well, I'm going to have to find a new message board.

good commentary!

[Gpwrangler]

A protest has been planned to start in a few minutes at Evergeen and Chicago, according to another news source. We'll see how that one ends up.

Sounds like a good place to stay the hell away from. And it's only 52 degrees out; wait til July.

[noise]

Here's what I consider to be a response which is not ugly. These are not mutually exclusive issues. You can care about an unjust killing and think that the property destruction is wrong, and in fact counterproductive.

Anyone who's house was burnt down cares about the property destruction. The seniors who cannot move into subsidized housing because their complex was destroyed might give a hoot. The employees not working at CVS any longer are probably concerned. Anyone who's looking at the bus schedule because their car was torched might be upset. The neighborhood residents who realize that its now much less likely that jobs and investments will take place in their neighborhood might care as well. And all at the same time they are mad about the killing.

Certainly. And I previously implied it was uneducated and misguided.

That said, I don't think anyone here is one of the people you described. I'm certainly not. And the much larger problem was the police here. That affects me. That affects everyone. The CVS, not so much.

The police were the catalyst. Let's address that. Maybe it'll solve the looting problem.

[noise]

Many people don't like it when the "Detroit sucks" narrative is broken.

I live in the burbs and I'm white, so many people feel safe to bash Detroit around me. When I start correcting\challenging some of their beliefs with a positive tone and examples of good things happens, and bad things that have gone away, I see it "click" in their minds.

For context, she was responding to me. I love Detroit. There was absolutely no "bashing" taking place.

[noise]

Because the issue is so complex and because most episodes involving a fatality are complex, it requires time for the legal system to investigate. There is nothing wrong with protesting if one believes that there is not a proper investigation taking place or there is a cover up of some sort, but to immediately protest that there has been an injustice every time a life is taken is wrong.

That would be fine if we weren't talking about the government. Or police. This is a systemic problem, much greater than this specific instance, that doesn't warrant "time for the legal system to investigate". The legal system is part of the problem.

[Gpwrangler]

Hopefully those caught burning buildings and assaulting others are arrested very carefully and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Arson threatens lives and is a felony. The view that destroying cities somehow makes things right is bullshit.

[canuck]

Hopefully those caught burning buildings and assaulting others are arrested very carefully and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Arson threatens lives and is a felony. The view that destroying cities somehow makes things right is bullshit.

I think the last thing on an arsonist's mind is whether his city will brighten up somehow after the fire.

I also think that the rioting is picture perfect for big media, and overshadows all the peaceful demonstrations that have taken place in Ferguson, Baltimore and elsewhere, sadly.

The results of investigations are not in, but there are signs of unusual force in cases where someone's spine is severed or 10 bullets are driven into them. The gun culture has to be replaced by something less sensationalistic and sexy but more rewarding in the long run, more befitting a rich, enlightened nation. Everybody is a victim in this, not the least the police, but not the most either.

[animatedmartian]

I'm watching a live feed from one of those Youtube journalists and there's a marching band and some dancers near the area where that CVS caught on fire yesterday. It kind of looks like any old summer festival going on. Doesn't really seem like a protest, but it's better than the alternative. Haven't been paying attention to any mainstream news outlets.

[Wesley Mouch]

I think the last thing on an arsonist's mind is whether his city will brighten up somehow after the fire. ...snip...

A common misconception is that these 'mobs' are of one mind. I believe that 99% of these mobs are fine people who have serious concerns about police brutality. But like any crowd, there are a few idiots. And it only takes a few.

If you listen carefully, you'll note that it Ferguson at least there was great tension between the local protesters and some 'professional' agitators. Not everyone is there for the same reason. Some want to peacefully protest. Others want to loot and burn. And some others have political agendas.

[Hermod]

The sad truth is what is left in the neighborhoods to loot? Their are plenty of empty buildings to burn, but that is a regular occurrence now. Ferguson is a suburb. Inkster or Southfield are the more likely candidates.

Yup, burn that Northland right doen to the ground. A very effective protest.

[Cliffy]

Never understood what burning your neighborhood does. Detroit is essentially burned down.

[mtburb]

Never understood what burning your neighborhood does. Detroit is essentially burned down.

Still, disturbances may still flare up in the suburbs-most likely Warren, Hazel Park, Oak Park, Southfield, Livonia, Inkster, Dearborn, River Rouge, Ecorse, Lincoln Park, Melvindale, Wyandotte or Pontiac.

After all, Ferguson is a suburb of Saint Louis and the 1992 Rodney King riots did spread into several Los Angeles suburbs.

[KJ5]

It sounds like some of you actually WANT it to happen here! Me, when I hear about the racist bs the cops are pulling in some other places, it makes me grateful most Detroit police are actually pretty cool.

[sumas]

It sounds like some of you actually WANT it to happen here! Me, when I hear about the racist bs the cops are pulling in some other places, it makes me grateful most Detroit police are actually pretty cool.

I have to agree with you. Our police are well trained. Shame more don't live in the city but they make their own choices. Detroit won't explode but check the burbs

So sweet, a neighbor just called, Worried our house was dark. She said we usually look like Christmas lighting. Forgot to put our porch light on. One lantern of two exterior to porch is out but need an electrian to fix. Have a good one, just waiting for the new month. Nice if our street lights worked.

Our area kids are involved in a bicyle club, a community garden and field trips to museums and community orgs with projects.

Don't ever ever ever tell me I don't have great neighbors again! Jealous maybe? Sumas

[Gpwrangler]

I think the last thing on an arsonist's mind is whether his city will brighten up somehow after the fire.

I couldn't care less about what's on his mind. It's terrorism and we have laws and stiff penalties for that. People on here seem to be wishing for it to happen to this or that suburb and not Detroit. Hopefully the authorities and Guard are well prepared.

[emu steve]

Watching "Morning Joe' on MSNBC.

They are making a big thing about the development in the Inner Harbor, downtown, etc. but what about the neighborhoods? 'Two Cities' is how they describe it: Uptown and downtown. Have and Have Nots.

Also as gentrification proceeded police action stepped up to protect the gentrified neighborhoods with aggressive policing. Aggressive policing seems to be 'in vogue' be in NYC, Baltimore, etc.

BTW, the problem in Ferguson has a very large racial component to it. Baltimore [[and Detroit) are very different. The power structure in Baltimore has very large minority component. William Donald Schaefer hasn't been mayor for decades.

Getting back to Detroit and this thread and this forum:

I do want to say that Detroit faces the same problem of a rebuilding downtown [[midtown) but still tremendous problems in the neighborhoods. There are a LOT of parallels.

Couple other thoughts:

1). Since the 2008 Great Recession the recovery has been very uneven. Most of corporate America and folks who have [[financial) skin in the monied game [[financial markets) have thrived. But the urban neighborhoods have not. They 'thrive' on good jobs, not a strong stock market.

2). Lot of talk these days about factories which USED to be in Baltimore. [[We can say that about Detroit, Camden, etc.). S&P hits a new high [[#1 above). Manufacturing employment hit lows in this recession.

3). In the 1990s, President Clinton championed community policing. Crime declined greatly in the 90s. Maybe community policing [[small part?) Strong economy?

4). [[since I'm 'on a roll'): Detroit needs to make automotive parts, helmets, etc. Anything job which gives a person looking for a job a chance to have a decent job [[and I hope these jobs pay a fair wage).

5). [[still rolling): If the state and country would rebuild its infrastructure [[e.g., roads and bridges, for starters) it could create hundreds of thousands of good paying job. Give a man [[or woman) a good job building/rebuilding roads, your car a better [[smooth) ride, your neighborhood a neighbor who has the $ to keep up his house, etc. etc.

[emu steve]

Rather than read my general thoughts, an excellent, detailed article referenced on "Morning Joe" by Tim Swift of BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32499923

[Bham1982]

It sounds like some of you actually WANT it to happen here! Me, when I hear about the racist bs the cops are pulling in some other places, it makes me grateful most Detroit police are actually pretty cool.

So the majority black Baltimore police force is now "racist"?

Baltimore's police force is as black as that of Detroit, and it's power structure is blacker. There may or may not be police misconduct in Baltimore, but it has nothing to do with racism. It's a black city, just like Detroit.

[Bham1982]

Rather than read my general thoughts, an excellent, detailed article referenced on "Morning Joe" by Tim Swift of BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-32499923

What a dumb article. Who knew that Baltimore had a black underclass? Gee, that obviously makes Baltimore totally unique in the American urban context.

And riots don't correlate with poverty. Hispanics and poorer and far more numerous than African Americans, yet there is no comparable Hispanic unrest. Detroit had the worst 20th century riots, yet the wealthiest black community [[at the time), and was headed by a progressive technocratic mayor in a city where there was [[at the time) a very high degree of black economic mobility.

[emu steve]

What a dumb article. Who knew that Baltimore had a black underclass? Gee, that obviously makes Baltimore totally unique in the American urban context.

And riots don't correlate with poverty. Hispanics and poorer and far more numerous than African Americans, yet there is no comparable Hispanic unrest. Detroit had the worst 20th century riots, yet the wealthiest black community [[at the time), and was headed by a progressive technocratic mayor in a city where there was [[at the time) a very high degree of black economic mobility.

Wasn't the 1967 Detroit riots a reaction to their grievances against the Detroit police?

Wasn't Ferguson a lot like Detroit circa 1967.

Of course, one could say the Baltimore riot was precipitated by a police action.

[emu steve]

And riots don't correlate with poverty... .

Are you kidding me? Haven't all of the riots been in poor areas? [[the correlation is strong, in statistical terms, it would be point-bi-serial, correlating two variables, e.g, income/wealth which is continuous ranging from poverty to wealth and the other dichotomous, riot or no riot.

So 'every' riot has been in a relatively poor city and none in an affluent area.

Have there been riots in Birmingham? Grosse Pointe? Bloomfield Hills? [[and hundreds of other affluent areas across America).

I remember the 1967 Detroit riots, they didn't happen in the most affluent parts of Detroit. [[I wanted to drive 'near' the scene and was told by a Michigan State Police to get the hell out of here). [yes, I was young and dumb].

So 'every' riot has been in a relatively poor city and none in an affluent area.