Could Detroit be the next Ferguson or Baltimore?

[emu steve]

It may be true that her comment was uncharacteristic according to one of her friends, but if I had been in her position as a prosecutor, I would have been extra careful to "stay in character".

Or else, somebody's got to help her quit drinking.

Social media sites are a big burden to a growing number of folks aren't they?

Hint: folks in her position [[and similar) should not be hanging out in social media sites.

Police, prosecutors, etc. hold special positions of trust and if they compromise those positions they are toast in our legal system.

[canuck]

Hint: folks in her position [[and similar) should not be hanging out in social media sites.

Police, prosecutors, etc. hold special positions of trust and if they compromise those positions they are toast in our legal system.

Exactly. A duty of restraint not unlike the duty of confidentiality. It's no wonder her foes in the judicial system had an eye on her Facebook page. They may have suspected some dumb comments from her.

Anyhow, Facebook is proving to be an excellent source of career self-destruct for some folks.

[artds]

Many of the officers charged in Freddy Gray's death are black. This shit isnt about race. Its about uncivilized drains on society acting like animals because that's all they know how to do.

[emu steve]

Many of the officers charged in Freddy Gray's death are black. This shit isnt about race. Its about uncivilized drains on society acting like animals because that's all they know how to do.

Is it fair to say that the police are a fraternity of like-minded [[will explain this later) people whose first loyalties are to themselves and their brother/sister officers?

Kind of the code of silence. Circle the wagon. This seems to be true of most or all institutions.

No different then a family member defending another family member suspected of doing wrong.

How about the Nixon White House and Watergate. It took tremendous amount of investigation and Congressional hearings to break through the cover-up.

[We also saw this in years past with the Catholic Church and pedophile Priests. Bishops protected first, the institution of the church, their diocese and the victims second.]

The last thing police want is wholesale [[okay, overstated) number of police facing the law for their actions.

What policeman wants to go to work knowing that if he or she does wrong, intentionally or unintentionally, the he or she could face suspensions or at worse jail time.

[gvidas]

Exactly. A duty of restraint not unlike the duty of confidentiality. It's no wonder her foes in the judicial system had an eye on her Facebook page. They may have suspected some dumb comments from her.

Anyhow, Facebook is proving to be an excellent source of career self-destruct for some folks.

Honestly I think it's a productive process. Twitter and Facebook are these bright shining lures that suck people in until they forget what they're doing and all of a sudden they're tweeting topless photos, dickpics, and/or hate speech.

It's like the modern day confessional.

Without it, they'd stay in office and their questionable behavior would be more subtly intertwined and hard to ever pin down as unacceptable.

That said, I don't expect perfection from people in public office. I just would prefer that their indiscretions not be directly related to the job they're supposed to be doing.

---

On the black cops beating black folks front, there's a long but stellar interview of David Simon [[creator of The Wire, but also 12-year veteran of the Baltimore Sun specializing in the crime beat) which touches on it.

In short, if you just look at the color of the arm that is swinging the club, and the color of the face that is getting smashed by it, and conclude that there is no systemic racism present because the colors are the same, then you have blinders on.

[Bham1982]

In short, if you just look at the color of the arm that is swinging the club, and the color of the face that is getting smashed by it, and conclude that there is no systemic racism present because the colors are the same, then you have blinders on.

"Systemic racism" is something taught with a wink to suburban kids in Ivy League universities.

In the real world, a black guy beating a black guy is not "racism" no matter how the race hustlers want to twist it.

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...In short, if you just look at the color of the arm that is swinging the club, and the color of the face that is getting smashed by it, and conclude that there is no systemic racism present because the colors are the same, then you have blinders on.

The connection being made is that the changing the soliders from white to black doesn't change that the system was created by whites.

I don't buy it, but it isn't crazy.

What it is, is a distraction from finding a solution to police/resident relations. Its not race. It is police culture. In fact, my firsthand experience with DPD's gang squad in years past was that BLACK COPS WERE MORE BRUTAL than white cops. I think they felt more insulated, and more able to act without fear of being accused of racism.

[mwilbert]

Many of the officers charged in Freddy Gray's death are black. This shit isnt about race. Its about uncivilized drains on society acting like animals because that's all they know how to do.

So how do we get police who aren't uncivilized?

[mwilbert]

"Systemic racism" is something taught with a wink to suburban kids in Ivy League universities.

In the real world, a black guy beating a black guy is not "racism" no matter how the race hustlers want to twist it.

Depends why the black guy is beating the black guy. There were plenty of black overseers on plantations. There were plenty of Jewish bosses in Nazi prison camps. The idea that people of a particular ethnicity can't be a instrumental part of a system that oppresses people of that same ethnicity is silly and contrary to history.

And in fact, there is nothing stopping individual black people from being biased against black people either. The human mind is an amazing thing.

[Wesley Mouch]

So how do we get police who aren't uncivilized?

1) Decriminalize drugs, and the incentive for PDs to arrest to sieze and profit.
2) Eliminate any and all standards to hire based on anything except qualifications. No residency, no racial preferences.
3) Establish state-wide certification programs. Not federal, and not local. Federal risks no diversity of thought. Local invites 'good ol' boy' networks. Track certifications, make the results visible to citizens.
4) See Veterans as a great source for recruits.
5) Continue to encourage community involvement. That doesn't mean listening endlessly to vocal fools at public meetings. It means getting the cops away from being nothing but arrest machines. The LA basketball initiative is a good example. Consider using police in roles that help the community, bike licensing in Detroit was once a great introduction for kids to their cops.
6) Eliminate police unions, they are a force for preservation of the status quo. Create strong civil service protections.
7) Establish state-wide wage guidelines, and measure cities against them, share results.
8) Encourage shift to 'Public Safety', and go even further towards having Public Safety officers do other kids of community work where positive relationships can be built.
9) More higher education, and stop calling it 'Criminal Justice'.

In short, toss out the current model, where Unions stiffle, the blue wall stonewalls, and reinvent the profession.

Oh, I forgot.... 10) forget race. Sure, racism exists. But it will heal naturally if you follow good guidelines. You can't force racial healing. There's no such thing as a 'conversation' on race. That just means you are bad, and I know what's right, you listen to me. That will never heal anything.
11) Realize that these problems are deep, and won't get fixed overnight. Hold bad cops responsible. But don't assume that all cops are bad. That just alienates the 95% of cops who are on your side. This 'anti cop' diatribe right now is just making reform harder.

[mwilbert]

I really don't think most of this is relevant.

1) Decriminalize drugs, and the incentive for PDs to arrest to sieze and profit.

I don't actually think this will make the police any better, but I do think it would reduce the number of bad interactions between the police and the public. Depending upon which drugs you decriminalize you may have some other fairly bad side-effects.

2) Eliminate any and all standards to hire based on anything except qualifications. No residency, no racial preferences.

Very unlikely to have any effect.

3) Establish state-wide certification programs. Not federal, and not local. Federal risks no diversity of thought. Local invites 'good ol' boy' networks. Track certifications, make the results visible to citizens.

Certification for what? I'm pretty sure that police officers qualifications are already state-wide. No effect.

4) See Veterans as a great source for recruits.

Veterans already get preference [[in seeming contradiction to number 2). No effect.

5) Continue to encourage community involvement. That doesn't mean listening endlessly to vocal fools at public meetings. It means getting the cops away from being nothing but arrest machines. The LA basketball initiative is a good example. Consider using police in roles that help the community, bike licensing in Detroit was once a great introduction for kids to their cops.

This isn't a change, so no real effect, although I suppose we could encourage MORE of it, which might be better. Of course, you don't want a residency requirement, so it makes it harder for the police to be involved.

6) Eliminate police unions, they are a force for preservation of the status quo. Create strong civil service protections.

I doubt very much that the unions have much to do with it--if there were not unions, there would be some kind of benovolent association that, for purposes of preserving the status quo and defending police even when their actions are indefensible, would be indistinguishable. If you really think that police work rules are the problem here, fine, but that seems super unlikely.

7) Establish state-wide wage guidelines, and measure cities against them, share results.

Seems completely irrelevant.

8) Encourage shift to 'Public Safety', and go even further towards having Public Safety officers do other kids of community work where positive relationships can be built.

Seems a lot like 5). Couldn't hurt.

9) More higher education, and stop calling it 'Criminal Justice'.

Maybe. I do think the Criminal Justice programs tend to be a scam. I think hiring police who actually wanted to study philosophy or urban history or something might be an improvement. I'd be interested in seeing some evidence that a different form of education for police officers would make a difference, but it is possible.

In short, toss out the current model, where Unions stiffle, the blue wall stonewalls, and reinvent the profession.

Don't think the unions are particularly important to this problem, don't see anything in what you have said that would deal with the blue wall, or with reinventing the profession.

Oh, I forgot.... 10) forget race. Sure, racism exists. But it will heal naturally if you follow good guidelines. You can't force racial healing. There's no such thing as a 'conversation' on race. That just means you are bad, and I know what's right, you listen to me. That will never heal anything.

There are two way to look at this. One is that it is ridiculous--it hasn't been healing particularly quickly up until now; how long are people supposed to put up with it. Probably some kind of actual action would be a good idea. But the second is that racial animus on the part of some police is only part of the problem--the issue is with police culture and police accountability in general. Race certainly amplifies that problem for people who happen to be the wrong race, but it isn't just about race, and I think most of the needed improvement is in terms of the structures in which police operate, not about improving their opinion of particular groups. This also has the advantage of being possible.

11) Realize that these problems are deep, and won't get fixed overnight. Hold bad cops responsible. But don't assume that all cops are bad. That just alienates the 95% of cops who are on your side. This 'anti cop' diatribe right now is just making reform harder.

Holding bad cops responsible would be a good start, and making sure all police officers know that is a real possibility would probably improve their behavior quite a bit. It is perfectly possible to believe that the vast majority of police are perfectly reasonable people who want to do a good job, and to also believe that in a world where they are, in fact, rarely held responsible for their misbehavior, they may not be as punctilious as they should be.

[gvidas]

"Systemic racism" is something taught with a wink to suburban kids in Ivy League universities.

In the real world, a black guy beating a black guy is not "racism" no matter how the race hustlers want to twist it.

I say unwarranted stop & search is racism because it disproportionately affects people of color. If you don't want to take my word on it, that's fine. NYC's stop & frisk policy has been ruled unconstitutional.

The beat-down is just an extension of treating all poor people in high-crime areas as criminals, regardless of their individual behavior.

I say it's systemic because it's so deeply ingrained that we're swimming around all "what's water?" unable to really imagine an alternative, and unable even to point clearly at the moment where this all began.

Here's a nice, not-too-long summary of the point from a dude who was born and raised in Baltimore.

[softailrider]

??? Most advanced prior to 1967? Where do you get that? Even up until 1967 [[prior to the heavy white flight), Detroit was heavily segregated within it's own borders. The whole Northwest side was mostly white. Let's not forget riots prior [[like the one on Belle Isle in the '40s.) to 1967. Maybe Detroit mentality now and the relations with cops isn't as bad as Cincinnati, L.A., or parts in the South, but prior to 1967, it wasn't super.

I think you're right. In 1967 I was living on Littlefield north of 7 Mile, between Vassar and St Martins. Vernor School was almost all white, the streets around Littlefield were almost all white. Grand parents on my Dads side lived in an apartment building on Richton corner of Dexter, there were black people living around there but not in that building [[ that building still exists and is functional to this day )

[G-DDT]

A lot of what happened to Gray in Baltimore [[a city that was notorious for having to pay out close to 6 million dollars in the last three years to victims of brutality-which, I guess is some kind of admission of guilt and some sense of "reparation"-which obviously doesn't excuse the initial violence http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...timore/391158/) is direct shades of what happened here-http://thefreethoughtproject.com/autopsy-report-victor-white-iiis-alleged-suicide- &
louisiana-police-cover-up/
& http://takepart.com/article/2014/08/...killed-himself The fact you have the coroner working in cahoots is no different then what Oscar Zeta Acosta [[Hunter S. Thompson's lawyer friend) implicated about famous coroner Noguchi with the death of Ruben Salazar.

From failing to release results from reports at the time they said they would, to never explaining all those vehicle stops [[which, by procedure, required reporting), the Baltimore police do "conspire" [[just because the word "conspiracy" is used does not diminish it's truth-yet, it does require quite a bit of weighing and discerning http://www.peaceandfreedom.org/home/...iracy-theories) with each other and other agencies to cover matters up.

I am going to agree with mwilbert on a few points. It is easy to turn folks against folks [[I do believe there was a thread here on DY that asked for proof about C.I.A. involvement in how drugs were being brought into the country-thus, onto the streets, and encouraging rival drug gang involvement behavior-notice how decent rap artists in the '90s were replaced with a prominent glut of "gangsta' rap") just like the Polish kapos in the concentration camps. This is a system that likes to keep folks divided, compartmentalized, and assume that the "powers that be" are divided against themselves and not in collusion [[yeah, whenever scores of prostitutes get killed for long periods of time by some serial killer, the reason action on the part of the authorities was lacking was because "one department couldn't get along with another"-a line we are fed with every cop show from C.S.I., sadly going back to X-Files and Twin Peaks; if anyone wants to debate about prostitutes being "drains on society", I'm of the Christian mindset that every life counts and the "whores"-most likely victims of a impoverished and/or traumatized upbringing-will enter the Kingdom of Heaven before any self-righteous judgers) with each other.

One point of improvement would be to remove the "good ol' boy network" of the F.O.P. We saw their flags behind the Baltimore cops during all the denials. These are the guys who rally to protect each other and hold seminars and workshops that show tricks to each other on what they can get away with [[like when dirty cops came to shut down and shakedown parties in Detroit, they'd all have coverings on the I.D. numbers of their badges https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...8231725AAd4ZwP, or how I'd get pulled over as a wanderer on deserted roads, who claimed they were acting on "calls" from passing motorists who were never present in the last hour and a half.).

[canuck]

Thanks for your smart posts gvidas and GDDT. The testimonial from the young man from Baltimore says it all. Fuck the nonsense denial of racism... It is.systemic. How.else.do.you explain the insane rate of incarceration in the US. Also, GDDt, what you say about the messengers of doom in popular culture designed to isolate AfricanAmerican is pretty relevant to me. It serves a purpose.

[aj3647]

Many of the officers charged in Freddy Gray's death are black. This shit isnt about race. Its about uncivilized drains on society acting like animals because that's all they know how to do.

Most white people [[including yourself) seem to get more upset about black people stealing rolls of toilet paper from CVS than white police officers murdering people. The coroner ruled Freddie Gray's death a homicide. He was murdered. But white people seem to care less about that than the fact that Gray had a criminal history [[because of course, his past misdeeds justify a summary execution at the hands of police). Or some cherry-picked images on Fox News of black looters. That gets the white people's blood BOILING! Those ANIMALS! How DARE they! Oh, a black guy got murdered by police? Psst, they must have had a good reason! Or he deserved it because he had a criminal history. NBD. But look at those black people stealing toilet paper!!! Those are the REAL animals! Not the white cop who shot an unarmed fleeing black man in the back eight times in South Carolina. Not the 73-year old police hobbyist who executed a subdued unarmed black man on the street because he "mistook his gun for a tazer." We need to wait for the facts to come in on that before we make a decision, let's hear his side of the story first. But those black looters? NAPALM the entire neighborhood! Send in some B-2 bombers to level the whole place. It's the only justice those sub-humans deserve!

[emu steve]

Wolf Blitzer [[CNN) Monday was downright terrible covering the afternoon as the civil disorder began. He was near hysterical. And every minute or two he'd invoke his shock at what was happening to the CVS store [["Where are the police?") as if it White House or the Vatican.

He seemed to forget the distinction between people and property and by people I mean both Freddie Gray and the officers who were out numbered and were being injured.

And this was while being told by a police spokesman about their desire to protect lives [[in this case police who were who at risk from flying bricks, etc.).

He didn't seem to realize it would take time to mobilize the state police and a half day to mobilize the Maryland National Guard and that the city police had other 'hot' spots to keep from blowing up.

[Hermod]

He didn't seem to realize it would take time to mobilize the state police and a half day to mobilize the Maryland National Guard and that the city police had other 'hot' spots to keep from blowing up.

The mayor had a massive army of Baltimore police [[including mounted police and armored cars deployed in multiple ranks around city hall. She wasn't going to allow rioters to destroy that [[or her).

[Zacha341]

Yeah we ended up selective destruction I suppose.

[canuck]

Hermod / The mayor had a massive army of Baltimore police [[including mounted police and armored cars deployed in multiple ranks around city hall. She wasn't going to allow rioters to destroy that [[or her).

Yeah we ended up selective destruction I suppose.

I was reminded of some selective destruction that happened way back in 1985. Phil-o-delphia.

65 houses burned in a black neighborhood when the black mayor said OK to the Police bombing of one house where a pesky revolutionary group of mostly black folks [[MOVE) were quartered. A sort of Natural selection evolved from that I'm sure. I wonder if they built a CVS in their place...

The mayor was black, I wonder if the Police and Fire Dept had that convenient fact in mind when they let the houses burn to the ground, at least the mayor accepted full responsibility...

[Zacha341]

Umm, even taking a libertarian position as I might in certain areas, we want a rule of law or there's chaos. We've hardly arrived at nirvana. On an average day doors are locked, alarms set, tickets are punched, signatures required, behaviors out of bounds challenged, and those who break laws must be dealt with [[NO! I AM NOT assuming guilt or innocence re Gray).

But, we cannot have full-out police abuse and corruption [[local, state or federal).

Having said that, re. who gains from the outcomes of 'protests gone wrong' [[sic), I DON'T think the right-wing's exclusive in vying for certain outcomes, politically speaking. No. Many have skin in this game!

Google 'Crisis Actors Baltimore' or 'Crisis Actors Media'! I don't believe all the claims but interesting that this could even be an option of media distortion.

Most certainly true. Law and order right-wing candidates gain, too. Police could plant agitators into the crowd. True.

[tstephens]

and if you recall it was organized...along with all of the other cities that burned as well.

Really, he was terrible?? Aren't they all???

...and let's not forget "destructive" behavior.

...it was either that or the fact that they were even more disgusted with what they were seeing on a daily basis!

[Bham1982]

Most white people [[including yourself) seem to get more upset about black people stealing rolls of toilet paper from CVS than white police officers murdering people.

This comment is a perfect illustration of why race relations are so bad in America. Literally everything in this sentence is a lie, but a large number of Americans believe this to be true, so the issue remains.

First, cops don't murder black people. That's a lie. There are very few cop murders in the U.S. [[statistically essentially none). Those few murders that have occurred are not at all racially biased. In fact most cop murders have been of non-blacks, even though blacks comprise a majority of violent criminals in the U.S.

Second, it isn't "whites" that don't like looters, it's also Hispanics, Asians and everyone else [[and probably most blacks, for that matter). The stupid white-black dichotomy has got to end, now. Hispanics far outnumber blacks, Asians outnumber blacks in many of our largest metros [[or will soon); whites and blacks are both in relative decline and will be the minority on our lifetimes. In short, the black-white dichotomy is anachronism in modern society. It sounds like an argument between Episcopalians and Methodists or something.

Third it isn't "stealing rolls of toilet paper" rioters kill people and destroy cities. the Detroit riots are probably the biggest factor in Detroit's long-term decline. Anyone who has any interest in Baltimore's vitality would be militantly against riots.

Fourth it isn't "murder"; you completely lied about that too. "Murder" is a criminal charge, and no charge had been issued. There is no way to know about a criminal charge prior to completion of the police investigation. Given that the public has no clue about a case prior to release of investigative results, any claims of "murder" and the like are just ignorant, feral hype.

[G-DDT]

Taking any life, especially with overwhelming brute force disproportionate to the crime [[even if the suspect mildly resists or flees) is murder. Now, I don't pretend I don't know how the police operate on some aspects. I do know once a pistol is out and aimed, they intend to use it, and they are not trained to incapacitate or disarm with their firearms.

Second, it's a prevailing militant attitude [[especially coming from a city that doesn't just board-up vacant buildings, they brick them up) that caused all of this unrest. I do not excuse such riotous behavior, but I very well can explain where it comes from. I do not feel I have to rehash the murders that have occurred in the last year alone by police acting on excessive force. Yes, there was a racial imbalance in Ferguson if a mostly black region is policed by a mostly white force, or do I have to post the easy to follow report from John Oliver again? [[pay attention between 1:45-6:15-and yes, I include the "not all cops are bad" as a comment of relevance)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A There was also a clear inequality when such incidents like these occur [[which I'm glad is one that got clamped down on)http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/p...o-kill-inmate/

Having read Christopher Dorner's "manifesto", I wonder what influenced this man most. He said it was police brutality and racial inequality that caused him to square off with the very police [[and although police were his only targets, the media kept insisting that any random person was in danger of being targeted by him) he once worked with. Wikipedia has an interesting bio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christo...gs_and_manhunt, What's not said is that he lived in such places as Florida, Utah, and Oklahoma, which I'm sure would've built up in him a justified sense of racial persecution, while at the same time instilling in him that the only way to go about changing things is through gun-obsessed violence [[the same kind that is being instilled in everyone in this country through violent video games, cop shows, and movies with "vengeance fantasies" as their theme).

I think racial inequality and police brutality are issues that must be acknowledged and addressed in a loud, assertive, unified, and most of all, peaceful manner. We do this through unity, community action, communicating through a variety of channels [[especially outside of the internet), purging the troublemakers, training for passive-resistance, hunger-striking [[in the right context), and if need calls for it in the right context, boycotting [[which has been long overlooked-I assure you far too many Americans have been trained in such a consumerist manner, that the mere idea of boycotting is anathema. Yet, if commercial and corporate structures feel the overwhelming sting of folks failing to support them, they may be goaded to act and influence matters). This all requires constant diligence and vigilance on the part of everyone.

I do not believe in the abolishing of laws. It's structure we still rely on in society. However, it's the things allowed to slip past these laws that are allowing corruption to go unheeded. On a religious note, I'm going to repeat what John the baptist told the police in his day what they should do: be content with your wages, do no violence to any man, and do not falsely accuse anyone. These rules, in themselves, allow quite well an enforcer of the law to do their duty, without giving them occasion to act up.

[aj3647]

Fourth it isn't "murder"; you completely lied about that too. "Murder" is a criminal charge, and no charge had been issued. There is no way to know about a criminal charge prior to completion of the police investigation. Given that the public has no clue about a case prior to release of investigative results, any claims of "murder" and the like are just ignorant, feral hype.

How did I lie? At least one Baltimore police officer is facing a Second-degree murder charge. Six officers arrested and charged, including one for murder. You're an idiot and you don't know what you are talking about. Oh and the coroner ruled his death a homicide, so there's that too.

Third it isn't "stealing rolls of toilet paper" rioters kill people and destroy cities.

Who died in the Baltimore riots? Answer: no one. There were no deaths from the rioters. You brining up the Detroit riots from 50 years ago has no bearing on what happened in Baltimore last week. So while two wrongs don't make a right, I still will not false equivicate that property crime is somehow just as bad or worse as the murder of a human being. It isn't. Stealing from a CVS is objectively not as bad as killing someone. What the fuck is wrong with you?

Second, it isn't "whites" that don't like looters, it's also Hispanics, Asians and everyone else [[and probably most blacks, for that matter).

BHam1982: Self-appointed spokesperson for blacks and Asians.

First, cops don't murder black people. That's a lie.

Well I already told you that Freddie Gray's death was ruled a homicide and at least one cop is facing a murder charge for it. So that's one. And did you forget about Michael Slager executing Walter Scott in South Carolina?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Walter_Scott

Guess what Slager is currently charged with? If you said "murder", you'd be correct! That shit's on video, so I'd like to see you twist that one into something that isn't a cold-blooded execution. And I can cite plenty more examples, but I think I've already proven that YOU are the liar here, not me.