Could Detroit be the next Ferguson or Baltimore?

[Wesley Mouch]

...snip...What policeman wants to go to work knowing that if he or she does wrong, intentionally or unintentionally, the he or she could face suspensions or at worse jail time.

What Wall Street bankers wants to go to work knowing that her theft from Widows could result in jail time.

Both deserve jail time.

With Wall Street, we decided that real crimes could be ignored.

With 'Black Lives Matter', we are deciding that actual individual guilt matters less than the collective guilt for the 'system' -- and that individual officers must be indicted and convicted regardless of the facts. That's what should scare police officers. They could be the victims of mob rule in a case where they are innocent, but it looks bad. If this were the black employee or the white banker, we bend over backwards to get them off the hook. But cops are individually guilty for the crime of the flawed system they work.

[aj3647]

11) Realize that these problems are deep, and won't get fixed overnight. Hold bad cops responsible. But don't assume that all cops are bad. That just alienates the 95% of cops who are on your side. This 'anti cop' diatribe right now is just making reform harder.

Hard to hold the bad cops responsible when the "good cops" form a blue wall of silence to shield them and protect them.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.2077632

‘If you snitch, your career is done’: Former Baltimore cop says he was harassed, labeled a 'rat' after attempt to root out police brutality

Like the Catholic Church protecting pedophiles, it's an institutional problem that goes all the way to the top and is deeply embedded in the internal culture.

Even the "good" cops likely won't rat out the bad ones because they know what will happen to them. Ostracized, harassed...or worse. It goes far beyond just a few bad apples.

[KJ5]

First, cops don't murder black people. That's a lie.

This person actually wrote this.

[mwilbert]

With 'Black Lives Matter', we are deciding that actual individual guilt matters less than the collective guilt for the 'system' -- and that individual officers must be indicted and convicted regardless of the facts. That's what should scare police officers. They could be the victims of mob rule in a case where they are innocent, but it looks bad. If this were the black employee or the white banker, we bend over backwards to get them off the hook. But cops are individually guilty for the crime of the flawed system they work.

I think you are getting ahead of reality here. Is it possible that this could be a problem at some point? Sure. But given the miniscule rate of indictment of police officers, and the microscopic rate of conviction, it seems to me like we are pretty far from this being a major concern.

[Wesley Mouch]

Hard to hold the bad cops responsible when the "good cops" form a blue wall of silence to shield them and protect them.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crim...icle-1.2077632



Like the Catholic Church protecting pedophiles, it's an institutional problem that goes all the way to the top and is deeply embedded in the internal culture.

Even the "good" cops likely won't rat out the bad ones because they know what will happen to them. Ostracized, harassed...or worse. It goes far beyond just a few bad apples.

I'm with you. Everyone should be trying to get rid of bad cops... and I'm not sure even the good cops can help as things are right now. Perhaps Ray1936 can speak to the 'blue wall'.

The existence of the 'blue wall' does NOT mean that every cop who is accused [[and defended by the blue wall) is guilty. The wall exists for a reason, I presume. Why? Well I think the lynch mob mentality we're seeing towards cops informs us that the blue wall has an important function. When we encourage mob rules, especially using racial prejudice as justification, we create an us vs. them mentality. Walls go up. If you want to get at bad cops, don't accuse all cops of being bad just for being cops, and for doing the difficult tasks. I've been close enough to law enforcment to know that we just don't know how hard policing is. Yet we endlessly think we know just how easy it is to defuse situations, and still get home to your husband alive.

[Ray1936]

I'm with you. Everyone should be trying to get rid of bad cops... and I'm not sure even the good cops can help as things are right now. Perhaps Ray1936 can speak to the 'blue wall'.

Blue wall? Yeah, well, it existed for minor problems, for sure. You never wrote a fellow off-duty police officer for a minor traffic violation [[or his family, or doctors/nurses, or the clergy). Lawyers were fair game, I suppose. The Internal Affairs Bureau of the DPD ran a tight ship; there was no blue wall with them. I can recall a case in the '50s where a couple of McGraw Precinct coppers pulled a bank holdup, got nailed, and the rest of the department was glad they were caught without exception. Felonies were never a free walk. I, personally, never saw a case where a citizen was injured by police action that wasn't reasonable. Further, any injured prisoner was immediately sent to a hospital, and taken by a crew that was not involved in the injury. The mid-level bosses saw to that without exception. The only fatal shooting by a police officer that I was involved in was when a holdup man on Bagley and Officer Jim Meeks were both killed by mutual shooting. Can't be much of a problem saying lethal force was excusable in that matter. Bad guy fired first, missed, Jim returned fire, the bad guy got another shot off as he fell and caught Jim between the pencils.

I'm not sure about the incident in Baltimore. Press accounts are so conflicting and vague I must reserve judgement. But with three black officers involved, how the f**k anyone can call this a racist incident buffalos me. That matter in Carolina where the officer shot the guy running away from him in the back was pure murder. That sorry ass copper is going bye-bye. And that 74 year old 'special officer' who thought he had a taser but shot the guy with a .38 was an absolutely ridiculous situation to start with. The Sheriff of Tulsa County who 'appointed' that guy because he was a political contributer should be disenfranchised.

Yes, those were bad cases; there will always be occasional such cases, sorry to say. Just as was the Me-Lai massacre and the Kent State incident. It's an imperfect world. We strive to be better, but will never attain perfection. But anyway, to get back to the original question, in my experience, the 'blue wall', while existing, is really pretty thin.

By the way, the biggest VIP that I ever gave a traffic break to was Chuck Dressen when he was the manager of the tigers. Jesus, he made a lousy left turn from the right lane of southbound Trumbull on to eastbound Michigan. But, shit, he had a California driver's license and I didn't feel like making him post bond so I tipped my hat and said goodbye. Sue me.

[Kevgoblue]

Ray. I'm thinking what Wesley was talking about is instances such as the one from Inkster. Where 57 year old Floyd Dent was pulled over for running a stop sign. Officer Melendez [[who had been released from DPD for similar abuse situations) then pulled him out of the car and began a barrage of punches to the head that lasted about a minute. I believe they tazed him as well. The other officer on the scene did not restrain him. As other cars arrived on the scene none of those officers intervened. By the end of the tape there had to be 8 or 9 police officers either particpating in or watching this mans beating.
Afterwards none of the other officers submitted a report conflicting with the official description of the incident. No one disputed him being "in posession" of cocaine. They all let the offending officer's report stand. They were all willing to not only not report the abuse of the offending officer, but to let an innocent man stand in front of the judge and face charges.
Had the press not heard of this and filed a FOIA request he would most likely have a conviction on his record as we speak.

This is the behavior that ordinary citizens view as the Blue Wall of Silence, not you letting your buddy's wife off without writing a traffic ticket.

[SWMAP]

I think that Bill Melendez' past isn't germane here. Sure, he was accused and indicted and tried [[along with 15 other cops from DPD 4th precinct) in Federal Court. But he wasn't convicted of anything. He did leave the DPD. KK was the Mayor and he was pretty hard on them. you wouldn't have stayed either.

I sat in on that trial a lot of days during my lunch hours and saw the witnesses - obvious liars all, with huge love of the attention and drama. They were incoherent, obvious drug users, spoke outlandish lies.
My next-door neighbor, a bi-polar batterer was at that time being cultivated by Ron Scott of the Anti-Abuse Coalition. She had a long history of Assault and Battery herself. She insisted, at Scott's direction on wearing an inflammatory tee shirt in the courtroom that called police officers pigs. the judge asked her to remove and she refused. Finally he had the bailiff haul her out screaming [[later Ron Scott disassociated himself from her - but it tells you the caliber of his adherents).

In the courthouse hallways the prostitutes dripped saliva and danced in stupors while they waited to testify. I can't tell you how unbelievable they were. Suffice it say that after weeks of testimony, none of the first round of officers on trial were found guilty of anything and the Feds dropped the charges against the second round of 6. This is all true.

During the trial a woman officer who had been promised something did testify against her co-workers. You have to realize, though, that she would have had her arm twisted by the Feds. They always go for the women, seeing them as the weak links. They tell them they are going to jail and wont see their children for years unless they turn state's witness. That cruel tactic usually works - even causing women to exaggerate in order to get a deal. so you can't depend on testimony like that - and the jury didn't.

I recall that Melendez received Bronze Star "for acts of heroism, meritorious achievement, or meritorious service in Desert Storm.

So he served his country in perilous combat. I never did. How many here have done that?

[Kevgoblue]

I think that Bill Melendez' past isn't germane here....



I recall that Melendez received Bronze Star "for acts of heroism, meritorious achievement, or meritorious service in Desert Storm.

Why wouldn't his past behavior be relevant? You went on and on, referencing the past behavior of the witnesses in the trial.
But if you'd wish to continue using this same logic, shouldn't Melendez's previous heroic, meritorious service in Desert Storm be irrelevant as well?

Lastly, was the behavior caputred by the dash cam heroic? That is the behavior which is in question. We were talking about the blue wall. i.e. police protecting other police offers, regardless of the circumstances.

[SWMAP]

His past behavior was not found, by a jury of his peers, to be culpable. You referenced his history and I thought that i would give you a eye-witness review of the court proceedings.

For today's issue - one that was seen on video - the past is not exactly a predictor.

[Ray1936]

I'll not make judgements on press reports.

[Wesley Mouch]

Summation: If you think too many cops are bad, you find a case like this and read into it what justifies your preconceived and popular notions. If you've seen the case up close, you're more likely to believe that something cops are railroaded based on weak testimony. Neither side is right nor wrong. We've developed our justice and police systems to try and make sure cops behave, and when the go rogue they are propertly dealth with. Sometimes the system fails and lets badness thrive. At least it doesn't tend to convict good cops often.

The current mob mentality should be a concern for all. You may think cops are bad, and sometimes get away with murder. And you may be right. But be careful when you wish for a system where cops shy away from law enforcement. Result is 1980s NYC.

[G-DDT]

There is something to be strongly said when two different heads of Inkster police have resigned in the past six months. They are clearly not happy with the way things are being done there. Also, it may be because Inkster has become a dumping ground for cops with a bad past.

No, not all cops are bad, however, the issue of police brutality has been with society for a very long time [[the literature, political cartoons reflecting the past, the many reports going back to famous situations in labor, civil rights, the Chicago 1968 Democratic Convention, Rodney King, etc.) and I for one, have seen police at the worst many times. It is an issue that must be acknowledged and addressed, and no one should assume it's some sparse rarity.

However, I think it odd when the media puts a magnifying glass on it, when it was well known for hiding past details. I sited my three theories earlier, and mob mentality to get violently riotous is what I would hope people would avoid.

I do think that someone's past is an indicator if we are to mention the pasts of the suspected infractors the media show the police arresting. Also, what happens when the past of someone is muddled by those protecting him like this ICE agent claiming a kid "fell through an attic floor" to get at him. http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/a...shots/32618568 yet, http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ting/26571925/ A clear case of being protected, and as for the "hole in the ceiling" http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/d...agent/32652604. Darren Wilson was shown to have quite a past before killing Brown.

It is not wise to try and use someone's past military service record as a shield in your argument. I respect many veterans, but I don't fool myself as to why they were sent into a battle situation, and it was not to pass out flowers and candy. Some Republican had to apologize for comments he made about all mass murderers being Democrats. If I kept to his flawed train of logic with better applied scrutiny, and the chutzpah to dare say it-I'd point out what many assassins, mass murderers, serial killers, etc. have in common with each other that Kubrick once pointed out in one of his movies. Yet, I won't.

Also, if it isn't just a matter of history, how about how one acts after being let go-let's not forget how many ugly things we've heard about George Zimmerman since he was cleared?

[SWMAP]

Once again, I have to point to my being around a long time and so I am cynical of the accusation - later thrown out - that the ICE agent held a gun to his wife's head.

You know that she was herself a Detroit Police Officer?

Do you also know that the DPD has a zero tolerance policy with regard to accusations of domestic abuse?

No one knows better what will happen to an officer even merely accused than another Detroit Police Officer: he will be immediately suspended and an entire protocol of investigations and sanctions will ensue.
As a DPD Officer herself, she had to press charges once she accused him of domestic violence involving a weapon. She can't back out as others do because her credibility in the Deapartment is at stake.

So there you have it. Remember, a judge threw the whole thing out when it came to court.

As to Officer Melendez' honors and awards - those should factor in to any discussion as much as any references to a past court case in which he was not found to be guilty - no more, no less.

[G-DDT]

So, we are going by the honors of police who've been known to protect each other, a system that gives paid vacations to murderous cops, and a system at whole that promises to "investigate" a matter, which eats up time in hopes that people forget. Not to mention a legal system that some folks will accuse as "revolving door" and unfair when O.J. is let go, but "tried and true" when it applies to police and certain representatives of political, military, and corporate entities.

What a complete affront to history as a whole!

“Our problems stem from our acceptance of this filthy, rotten system.”
-Dorothy Day

I know far too much [[and I don't claim to know everything) about just what makes this system rotten.

Also, you put yourself in an odd position when it's cop verses cop tried in a police system. Either way you cut it, there are some flaws there. I also, can't help but notice when I site vast examples, folks pick and choose what topics to refute in some pointless digression. There was no damage to the ceiling as he stated. A female police officer at the scene was witnessed to say to the man "Why'd you shoot him?" As far as past records show, he also stood idly by when attacks were made on others.

[G-DDT]

Again, I'm sick of going in circles about having to prove the fallibility of media [[yet, I have to site from such sources themselves to become all things to others, since no one wants to hear from the Worldlink or Chomsky camp), police brutality, racial inequality, corrupt legal systems, and of politics as a whole. The tin halo "whattya' gonna do about it" schtick gets tiring. The "that was in the past" when the corpse is still warm, the pick and choose disproportionate arguments, and the hiding behind family or service records or any other tactics I commonly see employed by Foxnews mentalities is getting wearying.

The examples, the evidence, the details are there not to be skimmed over. It's all I can do here without siting my own personal examples, as well. It all goes back to when me and my friends knew that suburban cops were using racial police code [[like 'N.I.L." or "Spoda'"), which was later proven to be true [[just as "Driving While Black" is very true).

Yet, in all fairness, I can site as well when I dealt with decent police officers doing their jobs as they should. It becomes an issue when they don't. It becomes an issue when they have a corrupt system surrounding them, and the community knows this and has known this for a long time.

Also, regarding our legal system. Don't get me started about who is indicted and who gets off scot-free, for I have quite the collection of material about folks falsely accused [[Like "Actual Innocence" by Scheck and Dwyer, for example) who did long stretches [[remember when Boston PD actually were coersing a junkie to say that he overheard their "prime suspect" confess to the murder of Charles Stuart's wife, when it was Charles Stuart all along, but that didn't stop Boston PD from turning the African American Populace of Boston upside down at the time?) with little restitution. Just the facts that our legal system prosecutes, incarcerates, and executes more blacks than whites says something for this country [[and to say otherwise is to put yourself in peril of racial profiling/stereotyping). I did point out we actually had K.K.K. working in Florida prisons, and if there is any hope for our system left, it's the fact that they got caught [[though think of all that goes overlooked....) by the F.B.I.

[SWMAP]

I have never seen that quote by Dorothy Day and it seemed so unlike her that I looked it up. This from the National Catholic Reporter 04-16-12:

"This is Dorothy Day’s most famous quote. The problem is that she probably never said it.
I was unaware of any controversy until I read a letter in the summer 2008 issue of The RoundTable, a journal published by the St. Louis Catholic Worker community. Bill Barrett, an old friend and my contemporary at the New York Worker, commented on the fact that the “filthy, rotten system” line was mentioned four times in a previous issue.
“Dorothy hated to hear that quoted back to her,” he wrote, and insisted that she would not even allow the poster in question in the house."

If you read the article you will see that day once did refer to capitalism in an inteview as a "lousy system" - is that what you meant?
Capitalism is a lousy system [[What Dorothy day really said) or criminal justice is a filthy rotten system?

[G-DDT]

I have never seen that quote by Dorothy Day and it seemed so unlike her that I looked it up. This from the National Catholic Reporter 04-16-12:

"This is Dorothy Day’s most famous quote. The problem is that she probably never said it.
I was unaware of any controversy until I read a letter in the summer 2008 issue of The RoundTable, a journal published by the St. Louis Catholic Worker community. Bill Barrett, an old friend and my contemporary at the New York Worker, commented on the fact that the “filthy, rotten system” line was mentioned four times in a previous issue.
“Dorothy hated to hear that quoted back to her,” he wrote, and insisted that she would not even allow the poster in question in the house."

If you read the article you will see that day once did refer to capitalism in an inteview as a "lousy system" - is that what you meant?
Capitalism is a lousy system [[What Dorothy day really said) or criminal justice is a filthy rotten system?

The article here is http://ncronline.org/news/people/dor...wasnt-hers-all with words like "paraphrase', "inconclusive", and "likely" and recollections by Barrett [[and not Peter Maurin), I see the matter ambiguous. I will have to provide a print up of the Catholic Worker House Mission statement [[which oddly enough, like somnethings, is not as readily available online as they should be). You will see the language is very critical of "the system" at large.

Better still, I support most nitpickery, but to criticize the validation of a quote from a source most folks would never heed on Detroityes, is distracting digression.

[sumas]

if drugs had been legalized my Django would be alive. Crap now I am crying again.

The point of course... police brutality. The 7th precinct amazing and we lDo not expect civil disturbance

[Wesley Mouch]

if drugs had been legalized my Django would be alive. Crap now I am crying again.

The point of course... police brutality. The 7th precinct amazing and we lDo not expect civil disturbance

The agitators out there don't care that you're precinct is amazing. They only care about their issues. And if you're in the way, oh well. Where the next riot will occur will mostly be determine by where the next compelling video where a black life doesn't matter.

[mtburb]

Bump.

I'm about to tell you about something that actually happened today.

We decided to go to the Taco Bell on Eureka in Southgate this afternoon. Fortunately, I stayed out. The other person in the car saw young black kids yelling things loudly and even throwing things.

That is very shocking, considering that I was only a few hundred feet away from all this.

[artds]

It will be be interesting to see if there are riots in Cleveland this weekend over the acquittal of officer Michael Brelo. There is a Cavaliers playoff game on Sunday as well. Hopefully Dan Gilbert has ordered extra security in and around Quicken Loans arena.

[mtburb]

It will be be interesting to see if there are riots in Cleveland this weekend over the acquittal of officer Michael Brelo. There is a Cavaliers playoff game on Sunday as well. Hopefully Dan Gilbert has ordered extra security in and around Quicken Loans arena.

If riots definitely have started up here...considering our connections to Gilbert and our recent history of police misconduct here, we may probably see riots here too, but that's only a slight chance, as the Tigers are still on the road.

[Gpwrangler]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/29...at-gas-station

Maybe it already has. Dafuq

[canuck]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/29...at-gas-station

Maybe it already has. Dafuq

The Vanity plates on his Mustang read: Envyme1. Right.