Artificial turf coming to old Tiger Stadium?

[Towne Cluber]

What are the athletic [[programming) qualifications of the critics of the PAL proposal?

As a [[non-involved) supporter of the PAL plan, I can say that I played several youth through high school sports and one in college. In addition to my day job, I also currently coach youth through high school in one sport [[with multiple teams) and volunteer with a nonprofit in another sport. I have also consulted with two high school athletic departments and have connections in the collegiate athletic world.

For the number [[5), types [[football, baseball, softball, soccer, and lacrosse), and amount [[boys and girls from youth through high school plus adult community play) of sports programming that PAL has planned for the site -- I don't know of one person with a background in athletics that thinks grass could withstand that much foot traffic. That's before taking into account the financial realities as well.

[ABetterDetroit]

Why even deal with the controversy?

Its already cutting off funding. There are plenty of city owned athletic fields that are poorly maintained that could use the capital. Spread the kids out, they all don't have to play under the office windows. This is Michigan not southern California, grass grows pretty easily here. Add a little food, water, mow than aerate and top-dress and it will get healthier and stronger every year.

Put in a possibly carcinogenic rubber carpet for kids to play on in Wayne county and Geoffrey Fieger couldn't come running faster if your silicone breast implants were leaking tobacco.

[Jimaz]

... Spread the kids out, they all don't have to play under the office windows...

Yes, even unpretentious Utica is currently building a new baseball stadium: Jimmy John's Field.

Put in a possibly carcinogenic rubber carpet for kids to play on in Wayne county and Geoffrey Fieger couldn't come running faster if your silicone breast implants were leaking tobacco.

Ha! I laughed.

• Drone video gives aerial views of new Utica baseball stadium

[Towne Cluber]

Spread the kids out, they all don't have to play under the office windows. This is Michigan not southern California, grass grows pretty easily here. Add a little food, water, mow than aerate and top-dress and it will get healthier and stronger every year.
.

Spread the kids out? In a city with as many transportation problems as Detroit? With the same kids playing multiple sports? With personnel [[same person coaching multiple sports) and equipment spread out? That is a very poorly conceived idea. Also, your turf management advice defies what I've heard from the Tigers grounds crew and MSU [[which has one of the top programs in the country).

[ABetterDetroit]

Spread the kids out? In a city with as many transportation problems as Detroit? With the same kids playing multiple sports? With personnel [[same person coaching multiple sports) and equipment spread out? That is a very poorly conceived idea. Also, your turf management advice defies what I've heard from the Tigers grounds crew and MSU [[which has one of the top programs in the country).

1,000,000 dollars buys a lot of turfgrass management for a half dozen public ball fields over a decade. [[making a comparison to a MLB field is beyond idiotic in this case) The MSU Turf program does not exist to sell rubber carpets in Michigan that much I can assure you. They would be pretty offended to hear you say that.

Why bite the hand that feeds you? Lear Corp. has weighed in, do you really believe they are the only one?

If the EPA won't even report on the safety issue, watch out
same people who signed off on the Flint river.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/art...hletes-n450551

[Towne Cluber]

1,000,000 dollars buys a lot of turfgrass management for a half dozen public ball fields over a decade. [[making a comparison to a MLB field is beyond idiotic in this case) The MSU Turf program does not exist to sell rubber carpets in Michigan that much I can assure you. They would be pretty offended to hear you say that.

Why bite the hand that feeds you? Lear Corp. has weighed in, do you really believe they are the only one?

If the EPA won't even report on the safety issue, watch out
same people who signed off on the Flint river.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/art...hletes-n450551

Please don't be disingenuous and dishonest. The term "Turf Management" refers to the science of natural grass, and MSU has the top program in the country. The Tigers grounds crew also consults with schools on maintaining their natural grass. If these two professionals groups, along with PAL [[as well as more and more hs/colleges) don't think natural grass would withstand a certain amount of play....what makes you think critics know more?

Do you really believe that a majority of people/companies are opposed to the PAL project?

Please drop the health concerns false pretense, much less bringing up Flint. There are other infills besides recycled tires. If the infill using recycled gym shoes is dangerous, then none of us should be wearing shoes.

I'll ask again, what is your experience in athletic programming? Talk about offensive and idiotic.

[mikeg19]

Zads07, thanks for injecting facts into the discussion.
No, Trump rarely relies on facts. I had you pegged as a Trump supporter.

You must not have understood what I was getting at. I am in no way, shape, or form a supporter of that blubbering idiot. And if you were insinuating that I hadn't used any facts and I therefore was like Trump because so, then you are mistaken. I was merely stating my opinion.

And just out of curiosity, would anyone be this pissed about PAL using turf rather than grass if this wasn't the Tiger Stadium site?

[ABetterDetroit]

Please don't be disingenuous and dishonest. The term "Turf Management" refers to the science of natural grass, and MSU has the top program in the country. The Tigers grounds crew also consults with schools on maintaining their natural grass. If these two professionals groups, along with PAL [[as well as more and more hs/colleges) don't think natural grass would withstand a certain amount of play....what makes you think critics know more?

Do you really believe that a majority of people/companies are opposed to the PAL project?

Please drop the health concerns false pretense, much less bringing up Flint. There are other infills besides recycled tires. If the infill using recycled gym shoes is dangerous, then none of us should be wearing shoes.

I'll ask again, what is your experience in athletic programming? Talk about offensive and idiotic.

Carsiogenic particulate inhalation.

I sure wouldn't grind up a pair of gym shoes into small pieces and start inhaling or ingesting them but more power to you if you would.

My opinion is with children is always error on the side of safety.

There are plenty of poorly maintained city owned ball fields that could be improved significantly to benefit all city residents with healthy natural grass with the $1,000,000 dollar rubber carpet PAL wants. I wouldn't think it was a good idea at any site in Detroit or anywhere at this point in time.

Sometimes it seems like Detroit has to jump into every problem that exist with both feet. My advise is stay the hell away from this one, bad news is starting to come in period. I'm done.

http://www.soccerwire.com/news/clubs...y-julie-foudy/

[Towne Cluber]

Carsiogenic particulate inhalation.

I sure wouldn't grind up a pair of gym shoes into small pieces and start inhaling or ingesting them but more power to you if you would.

My opinion is with children is always error on the side of safety.

There are plenty of poorly maintained city owned ball fields that could be improved significantly to benefit all city residents with healthy natural grass with the $1,000,000 dollar rubber carpet PAL wants. I wouldn't think it was a good idea at any site in Detroit or anywhere at this point in time.

Sometimes it seems like Detroit has to jump into every problem that exist with both feet. My advise is stay the hell away from this one, bad news is starting to come in period. I'm done.

http://www.soccerwire.com/news/clubs...y-julie-foudy/

Again please save the drama. Do you realize that most colleges and high schools now have artificial turf fields? You would know that if you had any background in athletics. You're making it out to be some kind of obscure thing. But for most critics of the project it's not really about children and certainly not about their health. You want a taxpayer funded multi-million dollar adult playground and dog park for your neighborhood [[and really your use only). You want it your way. You want those kids from the rest of the neighborhoods of Detroit to go somewhere else.

So what's your excuse for alternative infill [[cork, coconut fiber, or rice)?

[Zads07]

I know this is a bit different, but the Blue Jays are replacing their all-turf infield with real dirt. Mind you they aren't replacing the turf, but there's a reason they're replacing parts with dirt, so they can avoid major injuries.

Just a small tidbit if any of you want to take that into account.

[ABetterDetroit]

Again please save the drama. Do you realize that most colleges and high schools now have artificial turf fields? You would know that if you had any background in athletics. You're making it out to be some kind of obscure thing. But for most critics of the project it's not really about children and certainly not about their health. You want a taxpayer funded multi-million dollar adult playground and dog park for your neighborhood [[and really your use only). You want it your way. You want those kids from the rest of the neighborhoods of Detroit to go somewhere else.

So what's your excuse for alternative infill [[cork, coconut fiber, or rice)?

Okay, I was done until I watched my 15 minutes of nightly news tonight after having a spirited discussion on this issue this very afternoon and having everything including the kitchen sink thrown at me from the Clubber...

I want to thank you for everything you have ever done for youth athletics. I truly appreciate it. I do, no bullshit.

Today, while we are arguing about this, Now! Wake the F-up! Under no circumstances ever in human history did "LOTS" of anything give it vindication for making it safe. It only has proved that many ignored the prior warnings. From cigarettes, asbestos to formaldehyde in pressed wood fiber flooring and of course, lead pipes. The examples are endless and will continue into the future unfortunately.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/art...r-turf-n517726

[Towne Cluber]

Okay, I was done until I watched my 15 minutes of nightly news tonight after having a spirited discussion on this issue this very afternoon and having everything including the kitchen sink thrown at me from the Clubber...

I want to thank you for everything you have ever done for youth athletics. I truly appreciate it. I do, no bullshit.

Today, while we are arguing about this, Now! Wake the F-up! Under no circumstances ever in human history did "LOTS" of anything give it vindication for making it safe. It only has proved that many ignored the prior warnings. From cigarettes, asbestos to formaldehyde in pressed wood fiber flooring and of course, lead pipes. The examples are endless and will continue into the future unfortunately.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/art...r-turf-n517726

You're right! There's also radon underground at Michigan and Trumbull. The PAL participants better go play somewhere else in Detroit. For the kids sake!

Furthermore, the ashes of the cremated that were spread at The Corner as well as the pet waste residuals would be toxic to the kids. You could also argue that the demolition of Tiger Stadium released lead [[Flint), asbestos, etc. at the site and is thus now unfit for PAL.

[ABetterDetroit]

You're right! There's also radon underground at Michigan and Trumbull. The PAL participants better go play somewhere else in Detroit. For the kids sake!

Furthermore, the ashes of the cremated that were spread at The Corner as well as the pet waste residuals would be toxic to the kids. You could also argue that the demolition of Tiger Stadium released lead [[Flint), asbestos, etc. at the site and is thus now unfit for PAL.

Yep, everything and the kitchen sink. Looking at the bright side of your argument at least with the CDC, EPA and the Consumer Product Safety Commission all investigating the safety of your new Field Turf at least there will be a steep discount in the near future.

[Towne Cluber]

Yep, everything and the kitchen sink. Looking at the bright side of your argument at least with the CDC, EPA and the Consumer Product Safety Commission all investigating the safety of your new Field Turf at least there will be a steep discount in the near future.

Indeed, you're brought your own kitchen set as well.

A sure sign of a disingenuous argument is attempting to intentionally conflate unrelated information in order to misdirect the conversation.

You're falsely implying that:
Turf = infill
Tire rubber [[which hasn't been shown to cause cancer, only a theory) = Nike Grind [[gym shoes; which is apparently your own newly thought up theory)
Tire rubber = other rubber sources that are not in "question"

You're also ignoring:
Organic infills

Health is a genuine concern, however, intentionally conflating the claims with non-health related concepts isn't necessary and is dishonest.

Health is a genuine concern, but using it as a smokescreen for non-related issues is disingenuous.

[erikd]

Because people are moronic. They're probably the same idiots who think voting for Trump is a good idea.

That aside, the NGC is a group of dudes on mowers blasting down weedy grass every couple weeks. The PAL needs a team of people to mow and MAINTAIN the fields where hundreds of kids are going to play on a daily basis. I'm fairly certain the guys on the NGC have real jobs and aren't going to have the availability of a dedicated service.

Again, and how any times do we need to hash this crap out: HUNDREDS OF KIDS A WEEK ARE GOING TO BE BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF THIS FIELD. DO YOU THINK REAL GRASS IS GOING TO HOLD UP TO THAT PUNISHMENT?

The reasons why people want to preserve the grass field are hardly moronic. In addition to the general arguments about grass vs. artificial turf, the Tiger Stadium field also has a historical element that should not be discounted.

There is a benefit to preserving the historic field that goes beyond a purely utilitarian purpose. Of course, it is much harder to put an exact dollar value on the benefits of historic preservation, but that doesn't mean that there are none, nor does it mean that the advocates for preservation are "moronic."

It would really help the debate to know how much extra it would cost to maintain the grass field. Are we talking about a few thousand dollars extra per year, or would it cost tens of thousands extra per year?

If the additional cost to preserve the field can be raised by preservation-minded individuals and organizations, then it is a win-win situation. If the additional cost to preserve the field is so exorbitant that it makes the whole project unfeasible, then we can all agree that it just wasn't realistic, and accept that artificial turf is the only realistic way to go.

As a baseball fan and a historic preservationist, I would absolutely love to see the grass field preserved. It would be a shame to see it lost for want of a few grand per year. On the other hand, if it will cost an extra $100k+ per year to preserve the grass field, then I would have to agree that it is just not realistic, and the artificial turf should be used.

[smogboy]

The reasons why people want to preserve the grass field are hardly moronic. In addition to the general arguments about grass vs. artificial turf, the Tiger Stadium field also has a historical element that should not be discounted.

There is a benefit to preserving the historic field that goes beyond a purely utilitarian purpose. Of course, it is much harder to put an exact dollar value on the benefits of historic preservation, but that doesn't mean that there are none, nor does it mean that the advocates for preservation are "moronic."

It would really help the debate to know how much extra it would cost to maintain the grass field. Are we talking about a few thousand dollars extra per year, or would it cost tens of thousands extra per year?

If the additional cost to preserve the field can be raised by preservation-minded individuals and organizations, then it is a win-win situation. If the additional cost to preserve the field is so exorbitant that it makes the whole project unfeasible, then we can all agree that it just wasn't realistic, and accept that artificial turf is the only realistic way to go.

As a baseball fan and a historic preservationist, I would absolutely love to see the grass field preserved. It would be a shame to see it lost for want of a few grand per year. On the other hand, if it will cost an extra $100k+ per year to preserve the grass field, then I would have to agree that it is just not realistic, and the artificial turf should be used.

I think this is exactly the reason I brought up the proposal of having the existing Navin Field Grounds Crew people brought into the discussion. They've done a yeoman's job of taking care of the field for the last few years... on their dime. How would they feel if they were to be brought in PAID to take care of the field now? From what I could tell, those folks did it out of a love and adoration for the old place. Throw in a cash incentive, new equipment and see how they would fare taking care of the grass. Give them some of that high tech turf knowledge from MSU and Comerica Park's crew.

If this is truly a place for the people, why not let some of the people who cared for it the most get a shot at taking care of it again?

[AarunFast]

I think this is exactly the reason I brought up the proposal of having the existing Navin Field Grounds Crew people brought into the discussion. They've done a yeoman's job of taking care of the field for the last few years... on their dime. How would they feel if they were to be brought in PAID to take care of the field now? From what I could tell, those folks did it out of a love and adoration for the old place. Throw in a cash incentive, new equipment and see how they would fare taking care of the grass. Give them some of that high tech turf knowledge from MSU and Comerica Park's crew.

If this is truly a place for the people, why not let some of the people who cared for it the most get a shot at taking care of it again?

I like the sentiment, but those are just some volunteers who made sure the grass didn't get too long. Without significant help [[$$$), they are probably in way over their heads when lots of games are played on that grass. Again, I appreciate what they did, but the grass wasn't exactly the field of dreams...

[Zads07]

Everyone might want to take a read at today's article in the Motor City Muckraker, it provides some intriguing points to this discussion.

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2016/0...-stadium-site/

My favorite excerpt: "However, Rogers – PAL’s own selected top expert, mind you – says that with proper resources committed and competent professional groundskeepers, a natural grass field could hold up under practically unlimited use by youth athletes. It would just take some more desire, commitment, expertise, and money – but not nearly as much money than would be required to put down and maintain a synthetic field."

[Towne Cluber]

Everyone might want to take a read at today's article in the Motor City Muckraker, it provides some intriguing points to this discussion.

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2016/0...-stadium-site/

My favorite excerpt: "However, Rogers – PAL’s own selected top expert, mind you – says that with proper resources committed and competent professional groundskeepers, a natural grass field could hold up under practically unlimited use by youth athletes. It would just take some more desire, commitment, expertise, and money – but not nearly as much money than would be required to put down and maintain a synthetic field."

Here's my favorite excerpt: "However, Rogers – PAL’s own selected top expert, mind you – says that with proper resources committed and competent professional groundskeepers, a natural grass field could hold up under practically unlimited use by youth athletes. It would just take some more desire, commitment, expertise, and money – but not nearly as much money than would be required to put down and maintain a synthetic field."

Funny that Steve fails to mention that no high school and most colleges don't have these kinds of resources for their field[[s), yet he somehow paints a picture that PAL could do it and is willfully choosing not to.

His reporting style [[on all matters, not just this) is just as biased and bombastic as those whom he takes up sides against. Remember, it is his shtick to make news topics as controversial as possible for clicks [[revenue generation).

As usual, there's nothing new [[much less intriguing) here that hasn't already been brought up on this forum.

[Zads07]

Funny that Steve fails to mention that no high school and most colleges don't have these kinds of resources for their field[[s), yet he somehow paints a picture that PAL could do it and is willfully choosing not to.

His reporting style [[on all matters, not just this) is just as biased and bombastic as those whom he takes up sides against. Remember, it is his shtick to make news topics as controversial as possible for clicks [[revenue generation).

As usual, there's nothing new [[much less intriguing) here that hasn't already been brought up on this forum.

Funny you should mention his name because he didn't write the article. Like I said, you might want to read the article.

The fact that you continue to bring up high schools on this has no issue in this discussion. High schools are completely different budget wise [[Bond issues) when it comes to athletic fields and the department.

[Towne Cluber]

Funny you should mention his name because he didn't write the article. Like I said, you might want to read the article.

The fact that you continue to bring up high schools on this has no issue in this discussion. High schools are completely different budget wise [[Bond issues) when it comes to athletic fields and the department.

It's Steven's website and he is the editor...is he not?

It is truly sad [[but not at all surprising) to see agendas being pushed with something as simple recreational opportunities for Detroit kids [[the most at-risk of an already vulnerable group of people).

[Towne Cluber]

The fact that you continue to bring up high schools on this has no issue in this discussion. High schools are completely different budget wise [[Bond issues) when it comes to athletic fields and the department.

The fact that you keep trying to dismiss an entirely comparable example [[youth sports program management, field maintenance experience, etc.) is very odd.

Also, the fact that high schools have a much larger budget to worth with than nonprofit organizations such as PAL -- yet expecting PAL to make something work that they can't is nonsensical.

[Zads07]

The fact that you keep trying to dismiss an entirely comparable example [[youth sports program management, field maintenance experience, etc.) is very odd.

Also, the fact that high schools have a much larger budget to worth with than nonprofit organizations such as PAL -- yet expecting PAL to make something work that they can't is nonsensical.

It's complete and utter nonsense that you're closed-minded and won't read an article that talks about another side to this story. By all means, continue to be closed-minded though.

[Towne Cluber]

It's complete and utter nonsense that you're closed-minded and won't read an article that talks about another side to this story. By all means, continue to be closed-minded though.

...and now the name-calling begins! Always a good sign of a reasonable and honest discussion.

[Zads07]

First paragraph of the Motor City Muckraker article

"At the Feb. 2 kickoff for the Police Athletic League’s stadium project for Navin Field, not a single word about the field surface could be found in the press packets – nor in the remarks by CEO Tim Richey, Mayor Mike Duggan, Police Chief James Craig, Sen. Carl Levin, Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy leader Thom Linn, or leaders of the four main foundations contributing to the project. [[No one from the Navin Field Ground Crew was invited, of course.) Say no evil."

http://motorcitymuckraker.com/2016/0...-stadium-site/