Artificial turf coming to old Tiger Stadium?

[belleislerunner]

I'm sick of old people talking about this site as if it has an intrinsic worth. It's just a piece of grass. To anyone under 30, to anyone who moved to Detroit after 2000. It looks like crap and even a McDonald's or WalMart would be better than what's there. Holding on to a past [[when there's no past there - unlike the train station) just makes you out of touch with reality. I don't give one ounce of care whether they use real grass, turf or making it an outdoor swimming pool. Nor should anyone else. The fact the question is posed is barbaric.

[401don]

I'm sick of old people talking about this site as if it has an intrinsic worth. It's just a piece of grass. To anyone under 30, to anyone who moved to Detroit after 2000. It looks like crap and even a McDonald's or WalMart would be better than what's there. Holding on to a past [[when there's no past there - unlike the train station) just makes you out of touch with reality. I don't give one ounce of care whether they use real grass, turf or making it an outdoor swimming pool. Nor should anyone else. The fact the question is posed is barbaric.

I simply made a little joke "field of seams". Get it? I also mentioned it would be nice if they could bring the plaques back since I'm certain they will want to honor Tiger Stadium with some sort of signage. Pretty well everyone on this site has stated they agreed, while natural grass would be ideal [[especially for the kids to play on), artificial turf will be more cost effective. But raising the question in the first place is barbaric? Uh, no. What the gov't did to the people of Flint might be though.

[Junjie]

I'm sick of old people talking about this site as if it has an intrinsic worth. It's just a piece of grass. To anyone under 30, to anyone who moved to Detroit after 2000. It looks like crap and even a McDonald's or WalMart would be better than what's there. Holding on to a past [[when there's no past there - unlike the train station) just makes you out of touch with reality. I don't give one ounce of care whether they use real grass, turf or making it an outdoor swimming pool. Nor should anyone else. The fact the question is posed is barbaric.

3/10 for trolling. Preserving part of the past alongside new development [[the announced offices, townhouses, and retail - remember those?) is hardly barbaric. I'd say annihilating the past just because you're personally too young to remember it would be, though.

I turned 30 last month and might have gone to three Tigers games with my parents before the stadium was torn down. Doesn't mean I see any reason to destroy the value people place on that site by building a WalMart instead of respectfully keeping part of it set aside for youth sports.

[313rd]

Did Larson Realty secure their financing for their development on the property as well? From what I recall is that PAL will get Northern and Western property and the Housing/Retail was to go along Michigan Avenue.

[Lowell]

One of my favorite quotes:

"If a horse can't eat it, I don't want to play on it. "
Richie Allen

[eastland]

One of my favorite quotes:

"If a horse can't eat it, I don't want to play on it. "
Richie Allen

Lowell:
You mean Dick "Don't Call Me Richie" Allen!

[jackie5275]

I personally don't like the idea of artificial turf. I've always liked natural turf as a personal preference. However, it has been reinforced since my kid started playing football. He has played on both surfaces and cited that the artificial turf is much harder on his body. One example is the amount of heat it gives off makes the players feet burn up. I've seen him & his teammates pull off their cleats, peel their socks off, and pour cold water on their feet immediately after a game played on artificial turf in Aug or Sept because their feet are burning some much. If they're talking about have kids play baseball & especially soccer on it, they may want to take into consideration keeping it natural so as not to damage growing bodies. But then again, the cost is the bottomline. Field maintenance is cheaper with artificial.

[drjeff]

Detroit has outdrawn the Cubs 4 of the past 5 years. Last year the Cubs were a playoff team and the Tigers in last place, and even then Chicago barely outdrew Detroit. Attendance since the Tigers moved to Comerica Park is far, far higher than it EVER was in Tiger Stadium. In 1999, the final year of TS, the Tigers drew just over 2 million fans. Most of the 1990s it was more like 1.5 million. The lowest attendance ever in Comerica Park was 2003, when the Tigers had a historically bad team, and it was still 1.4 million.

I think Tiger Stadium was probably the very best place of any stadium to watch a game if you had a good seat, but half the seats in the stadium were between bad and terrible. Anything below the lower deck overhang and you couldn't see the flight of the ball. The upper deck seats in the outfield were ridiculously far from home, especially the bleachers, which may have been a fun place to watch a game but were really terrible for seeing the action.

That said, I'll be sad to see the grass disappear from the Corner. Stupid soccer ruins the fields, so they really have no choice.

[401don]

For some reason I can't get the link to work, but a Crain's article today states that Lear Corp. has pulled its 25k annual funding to PAL because the Tiger Stadium site plans don't live up to the spirit of the 3 million dollar fed. grant. This seems a little petty. The plans are long past the point of preserving any of the Tiger Stadium site and since when aren't fed. pork grants mostly wasteful.

[Zads07]

For some reason I can't get the link to work, but a Crain's article today states that Lear Corp. has pulled its 25k annual funding to PAL because the Tiger Stadium site plans don't live up to the spirit of the 3 million dollar fed. grant. This seems a little petty. The plans are long past the point of preserving any of the Tiger Stadium site and since when aren't fed. pork grants mostly wasteful.

Here's the link:
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...-tied-to-tiger

And good on Lear for pulling their money. Baseball was meant to play on grass, not artificial turf. The fact that Lear is pulling their money is a huge sign that this is more than just a 'petty' argument between a company [[PAL) and 'some' people who want the grass saved.

People have memories there and yes, although the dimensions will be saved, would it not be even better to save the grass as well? There has to be some sort of compromise. Heck NFGS has done a more than bang-up, incredible job keeping Old Tiger Stadium field in tip-top shape, just volunteering. Why not allow them to take care of it on some sort of schedule? This shouldn't be that hard and PAL should listen to the community.

To those people who say, who cares, just put in the turf? If this wasn't such a big deal, then why are people up in arms about it and why did a corporation pull funding?

[mikeg19]

To those people who say, who cares, just put in the turf? If this wasn't such a big deal, then why are people up in arms about it and why did a corporation pull funding?

Because people are moronic. They're probably the same idiots who think voting for Trump is a good idea.

That aside, the NGC is a group of dudes on mowers blasting down weedy grass every couple weeks. The PAL needs a team of people to mow and MAINTAIN the fields where hundreds of kids are going to play on a daily basis. I'm fairly certain the guys on the NGC have real jobs and aren't going to have the availability of a dedicated service.

Again, and how any times do we need to hash this crap out: HUNDREDS OF KIDS A WEEK ARE GOING TO BE BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF THIS FIELD. DO YOU THINK REAL GRASS IS GOING TO HOLD UP TO THAT PUNISHMENT?

[Zads07]

Because people are moronic. They're probably the same idiots who think voting for Trump is a good idea.

That aside, the NGC is a group of dudes on mowers blasting down weedy grass every couple weeks. The PAL needs a team of people to mow and MAINTAIN the fields where hundreds of kids are going to play on a daily basis. I'm fairly certain the guys on the NGC have real jobs and aren't going to have the availability of a dedicated service.

Again, and how any times do we need to hash this crap out: HUNDREDS OF KIDS A WEEK ARE GOING TO BE BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF THIS FIELD. DO YOU THINK REAL GRASS IS GOING TO HOLD UP TO THAT PUNISHMENT?

HUNDREDS OF KIDS BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF REAL GRASS AROUND THE COUNTRY, ASK THOSE FOLKS HOW THEY TAKE CARE OF IT?

That sound good with the all-caps Mikeg19? Just shut it. If real grass is such an issue, then lets replace the real grass everywhere in the world because kids beat the shit out of it on every playing field.

[mikeg19]

HUNDREDS OF KIDS BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF REAL GRASS AROUND THE COUNTRY, ASK THOSE FOLKS HOW THEY TAKE CARE OF IT?

That sound good with the all-caps Mikeg19? Just shut it. If real grass is such an issue, then lets replace the real grass everywhere in the world because kids beat the shit out of it on every playing field.

Yea, you're definitely someone who thinks Trump is a good candidate with that kind of
rhetoric.

You literally proved my point for me man. Drive past any playground, field, ball diamond, etc. They are fields of dust and rocks with the occasional patch of grass that hasn't been destroyed yet. Why would they pour tons and tons of cash into trying to maintain grass when they can put in artificial turf or something of the sort and not have to deal with it? Kinda seems like common sense to most of us, but apparently not all of us.....

[erikd]

Because people are moronic. They're probably the same idiots who think voting for Trump is a good idea.

That aside, the NGC is a group of dudes on mowers blasting down weedy grass every couple weeks. The PAL needs a team of people to mow and MAINTAIN the fields where hundreds of kids are going to play on a daily basis. I'm fairly certain the guys on the NGC have real jobs and aren't going to have the availability of a dedicated service.

Again, and how any times do we need to hash this crap out: HUNDREDS OF KIDS A WEEK ARE GOING TO BE BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF THIS FIELD. DO YOU THINK REAL GRASS IS GOING TO HOLD UP TO THAT PUNISHMENT?

The reasons why people want to preserve the grass field are hardly moronic. In addition to the general arguments about grass vs. artificial turf, the Tiger Stadium field also has a historical element that should not be discounted.

There is a benefit to preserving the historic field that goes beyond a purely utilitarian purpose. Of course, it is much harder to put an exact dollar value on the benefits of historic preservation, but that doesn't mean that there are none, nor does it mean that the advocates for preservation are "moronic."

It would really help the debate to know how much extra it would cost to maintain the grass field. Are we talking about a few thousand dollars extra per year, or would it cost tens of thousands extra per year?

If the additional cost to preserve the field can be raised by preservation-minded individuals and organizations, then it is a win-win situation. If the additional cost to preserve the field is so exorbitant that it makes the whole project unfeasible, then we can all agree that it just wasn't realistic, and accept that artificial turf is the only realistic way to go.

As a baseball fan and a historic preservationist, I would absolutely love to see the grass field preserved. It would be a shame to see it lost for want of a few grand per year. On the other hand, if it will cost an extra $100k+ per year to preserve the grass field, then I would have to agree that it is just not realistic, and the artificial turf should be used.

[smogboy]

The reasons why people want to preserve the grass field are hardly moronic. In addition to the general arguments about grass vs. artificial turf, the Tiger Stadium field also has a historical element that should not be discounted.

There is a benefit to preserving the historic field that goes beyond a purely utilitarian purpose. Of course, it is much harder to put an exact dollar value on the benefits of historic preservation, but that doesn't mean that there are none, nor does it mean that the advocates for preservation are "moronic."

It would really help the debate to know how much extra it would cost to maintain the grass field. Are we talking about a few thousand dollars extra per year, or would it cost tens of thousands extra per year?

If the additional cost to preserve the field can be raised by preservation-minded individuals and organizations, then it is a win-win situation. If the additional cost to preserve the field is so exorbitant that it makes the whole project unfeasible, then we can all agree that it just wasn't realistic, and accept that artificial turf is the only realistic way to go.

As a baseball fan and a historic preservationist, I would absolutely love to see the grass field preserved. It would be a shame to see it lost for want of a few grand per year. On the other hand, if it will cost an extra $100k+ per year to preserve the grass field, then I would have to agree that it is just not realistic, and the artificial turf should be used.

I think this is exactly the reason I brought up the proposal of having the existing Navin Field Grounds Crew people brought into the discussion. They've done a yeoman's job of taking care of the field for the last few years... on their dime. How would they feel if they were to be brought in PAID to take care of the field now? From what I could tell, those folks did it out of a love and adoration for the old place. Throw in a cash incentive, new equipment and see how they would fare taking care of the grass. Give them some of that high tech turf knowledge from MSU and Comerica Park's crew.

If this is truly a place for the people, why not let some of the people who cared for it the most get a shot at taking care of it again?

[Beech Cricker]

People have memories there and yes, although the dimensions will be saved, would it not be even better to save the grass as well?

Zads, I thought the field dimensions were being sacrificed, too--to make room for the other parts of the development [[housing, retail), I assume, no?

[Towne Cluber]

1. Given that most colleges/high schools have installed turf, what do critics of this project know that athletic professionals don't know about getting maximum usage and cost controls out of field space?

2. Do critics realize that professional fields are re-sodded every few years - so the site is not in fact "the same grass and dirt" that legends played on"?

15+ years ago I was against turf, especially at historic venues, however as I've become more involved in athletic coaching and administration -- I realized that the demands of multiple sports [[and the increasing numbers of younger/girls teams) on grass simply isn't tenable.

As much as I love the Tiger Stadium/Navin Field site as well, the concept of a [[glorified) neighborhood park where people play pickup games on the "original" field isn't a realistic permanent solution. And that's what this is really about. People accusing PAL of being selfish are in fact the selfish ones. For all sorts of reasons, we need to focus on getting as many Detroit kids into as many [[physical) activities as possible...not arguing over grass versus turf.

[mikeg19]

1. Given that most colleges/high schools have installed turf, what do critics of this project know that athletic professionals don't know about getting maximum usage and cost controls out of field space?

2. Do critics realize that professional fields are re-sodded every few years - so the site is not in fact "the same grass and dirt" that legends played on"?

15+ years ago I was against turf, especially at historic venues, however as I've become more involved in athletic coaching and administration -- I realized that the demands of multiple sports [[and the increasing numbers of younger/girls teams) on grass simply isn't tenable.

As much as I love the Tiger Stadium/Navin Field site as well, the concept of a [[glorified) neighborhood park where people play pickup games on the "original" field isn't a realistic permanent solution. And that's what this is really about. People accusing PAL of being selfish are in fact the selfish ones. For all sorts of reasons, we need to focus on getting as many Detroit kids into as many [[physical) activities as possible...not arguing over grass versus turf.

Everything you said. Just close the thread here because it just needs to be done already.

[Zads07]

There are 3 main facts to look at here:

1. PAL cited a MSU professor as a source with him saying artificial turf is cheaper. That's only because it fit within their budget, 'cheaper' to maintain, yet the professor still says grass is the correct option.
2. ESPN put out an investigative piece I believe last summer. They cited health concerns with crumb rubber as a possible source of cancer, although it hasn't yet been proven.
3. LEAR pulling their funding from PAL is huge and they pulled it because they want real grass.

Why should we just say ok, artificial turf is ok because someone will redevelop it and if they don't choose artificial turf, we might risk losing the site to another developer? As residents, we should demand the highest from our public officials to do what is best for the site. Just because we can choose artificial turf doesn't mean we have to. It's not like anyone is married to the idea, it's the fact PAL is stating it's cheapest.

http://www.thenation.com/article/the...tially-safety/

[Towne Cluber]

There are 3 main facts to look at here:

1. PAL cited a MSU professor as a source with him saying artificial turf is cheaper. That's only because it fit within their budget, 'cheaper' to maintain, yet the professor still says grass is the correct option.
2. ESPN put out an investigative piece I believe last summer. They cited health concerns with crumb rubber as a possible source of cancer, although it hasn't yet been proven.
3. LEAR pulling their funding from PAL is huge and they pulled it because they want real grass.

Why should we just say ok, artificial turf is ok because someone will redevelop it and if they don't choose artificial turf, we might risk losing the site to another developer? As residents, we should demand the highest from our public officials to do what is best for the site. Just because we can choose artificial turf doesn't mean we have to. It's not like anyone is married to the idea, it's the fact PAL is stating it's cheapest.

http://www.thenation.com/article/the...tially-safety/

Top 3 Main Priorities to look at here:

1. Detroit kids participating in organized activities.
2. Maintaining the site as a sporting venue.
3. Other development [[retail/residential) at the site which will add to jobs/tax base/amenities for residents/visitors.

In response:

1. Countless high schools/colleges have also determined that turf is the more economical and the best way to get the most use of the field.
2. There are other, non-controversial infill alternatives to crumb rubber.
3. All other sources HAVE NOT pulled their funding and want the plan to move forward regardless of turf/grass.

[downtownguy]

There are 3 main facts to look at here:

1. PAL cited a MSU professor as a source with him saying artificial turf is cheaper. That's only because it fit within their budget, 'cheaper' to maintain, yet the professor still says grass is the correct option.
2. ESPN put out an investigative piece I believe last summer. They cited health concerns with crumb rubber as a possible source of cancer, although it hasn't yet been proven.
3. LEAR pulling their funding from PAL is huge and they pulled it because they want real grass.

Why should we just say ok, artificial turf is ok because someone will redevelop it and if they don't choose artificial turf, we might risk losing the site to another developer? As residents, we should demand the highest from our public officials to do what is best for the site. Just because we can choose artificial turf doesn't mean we have to. It's not like anyone is married to the idea, it's the fact PAL is stating it's cheapest.

http://www.thenation.com/article/the...tially-safety/

Zads07, thanks for injecting facts into the discussion.

Yea, you're definitely someone who thinks Trump is a good candidate with that kind of
rhetoric.

No, Trump rarely relies on facts. I had you pegged as a Trump supporter.

[mikeg19]

Zads07, thanks for injecting facts into the discussion.
No, Trump rarely relies on facts. I had you pegged as a Trump supporter.

You must not have understood what I was getting at. I am in no way, shape, or form a supporter of that blubbering idiot. And if you were insinuating that I hadn't used any facts and I therefore was like Trump because so, then you are mistaken. I was merely stating my opinion.

And just out of curiosity, would anyone be this pissed about PAL using turf rather than grass if this wasn't the Tiger Stadium site?

[Towne Cluber]

What are the athletic [[programming) qualifications of the critics of the PAL proposal?

As a [[non-involved) supporter of the PAL plan, I can say that I played several youth through high school sports and one in college. In addition to my day job, I also currently coach youth through high school in one sport [[with multiple teams) and volunteer with a nonprofit in another sport. I have also consulted with two high school athletic departments and have connections in the collegiate athletic world.

For the number [[5), types [[football, baseball, softball, soccer, and lacrosse), and amount [[boys and girls from youth through high school plus adult community play) of sports programming that PAL has planned for the site -- I don't know of one person with a background in athletics that thinks grass could withstand that much foot traffic. That's before taking into account the financial realities as well.

[ABetterDetroit]

Why even deal with the controversy?

Its already cutting off funding. There are plenty of city owned athletic fields that are poorly maintained that could use the capital. Spread the kids out, they all don't have to play under the office windows. This is Michigan not southern California, grass grows pretty easily here. Add a little food, water, mow than aerate and top-dress and it will get healthier and stronger every year.

Put in a possibly carcinogenic rubber carpet for kids to play on in Wayne county and Geoffrey Fieger couldn't come running faster if your silicone breast implants were leaking tobacco.

[Jimaz]

... Spread the kids out, they all don't have to play under the office windows...

Yes, even unpretentious Utica is currently building a new baseball stadium: Jimmy John's Field.

Put in a possibly carcinogenic rubber carpet for kids to play on in Wayne county and Geoffrey Fieger couldn't come running faster if your silicone breast implants were leaking tobacco.

Ha! I laughed.

• Drone video gives aerial views of new Utica baseball stadium