Michigan transit tax Rejected [MI Prop 15-1]

[Hypestyles]

... whatever happens, the roads won't get funded for fixing. too much like right.

[Llama]

I have lost tires, wheels and a hub bearing to potholes. Sometimes in traffic and with snow cover there is only so much you can do to avoid them. I am angry about it-- 2 tires, 2 aluminum alloy wheels, one hub plus labor was a lot of cash.

Why is it DETROIT can keep bad pot holes halfway decently patched [[on Jefferson) but the State cannot on the Larned I-275 on ramp-- yes, the very same ramp ambulances use to get from the east side to the med center? I think that is their hostile way of telling us we'd better vote yes.

I am voting NO. They need to conduct themselves sanely and responsibly day to day. And they need to give us a bill that is 100% for road rehabilitation-- not for schools, not vaguely for "local governments" [[where I am already paying $375/year for LOCAL road repair), not to offset some other fund so that its previous allocation can then be diverted to schools, etc.

Since municipalities maintain their own roads, and tax their residents to do so, which roads are these the State is proposing to fix, anyway? Just the Interstates?

That pathetic "our son is going to drive next year" radio spot really miffs me as well. If I hadn't already decided to vote no, that commercial would have convinced me to do so.

[Dan Wesson]

I am voting NO to prop 1. The more I read the worse this proposal gets.

I see there have been some comments about paid political TV spots. I haven't seen any up here. I don't watch that much TV but there has been no ads on what I do.

This is a major tax hike, it opens the state constitution and changes existing law too. No small matter.

Vote NO, they're asking for the moon.

http://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_Sale...%28May_2015%29

[Jimaz]

... That pathetic "our son is going to drive next year" radio spot really miffs me as well. If I hadn't already decided to vote no, that commercial would have convinced me to do so.

This demonstrates why condescension is an especially ineffective form of rhetoric. It makes me wonder why ads use it so often.

I think it's more a matter of selling the ad buyers whatever they'll buy. The buyers want their superiority validated, their egos stroked, so that's what the ads stroke despite their lack of efficaciousness.

This bizarreness has been brought to you by your Supreme Court's illustrious Citizens United decision.

Fools and their obscenely-unearned mounds of money are easily departed.

[RO_Resident]

I am voting NO. They need to conduct themselves sanely and responsibly day to day. And they need to give us a bill that is 100% for road rehabilitation-- not for schools, not vaguely for "local governments" [[where I am already paying $375/year for LOCAL road repair), not to offset some other fund so that its previous allocation can then be diverted to schools, etc.

Since municipalities maintain their own roads, and tax their residents to do so, which roads are these the State is proposing to fix, anyway? Just the Interstates?

Most communities get their road funding through Act 51 formula. The bulk of the excise portion of the gas tax [[the 19 cents per gallon) is distributed through the Michigan Transportation Fund. The money can be spent on all public roads.

MDOT gets 39.1% of the fund, the 83 counties get 39.1%, and the ~530 cities and villages get 21.8% of the distribution. Relatively few counties, cities, or villages have dedicated millages for road funding. Royal Oak passed a millage last year. Ferndale passed a dedicated sewer/road bonding about a decade ago.

You can see the current [[and potential) funding going to the counties, cities, and villages in our area here: http://semcog.org/Road-Funding

[Cincinnati_Kid]

The state government isn't telling the whole story to begin with. Prop 1 isn't just about the roads and the sales tax hike, it also includes higher car registration fees, along with other nameless contributions, that our great politicians aren't telling us about. Cant wait to see what else they have up their collective sleeves

[Gpwrangler]

Look at two cities. Take Hamtramck. Take Franklin.

No, take the average two-income family in Roseville, Allen Park or Wyandotte in a $175,000 home who may or may not have a cabin up north. They are not super rich and that deduction helps a lot. Thankfully it is only up for discussion in places like this board. Homeowners help the economy in many ways. And those home equity loans [[ that get so many in trouble) often fund college educations or needed repairs that keep many homes from going downhill.

Start penalizing homeowners and and hard working people and maybe more communities will circle the drain. If you want hard-working people to stop buying cars and real estate that's fine. Put up a bill to remove the interest deduction. It will probably be less popular than this bullshit road bill. I swear to God extreme wealth to some on this board means your car is all painted factory color with four matching tires. Geez my spare is even original I must really be wealthy.

I can't wait to see this get voted down. Maybe it will be just the start of turning this train around before we turn socialist. Last I heard there was almost 70% disapproval of the road bill.

[sumas]

I have not heard that radio spot. Praise powers that be. Voting NO.

Don't blame liberals for a bill that smacks of Republican boondoogles.

Roads need fixing, lighting, water, sewer isues, need to be addressed. Has to be paid for somehow. Just not with idiot bills that put sticky hands in the pot. The tax increase wouldn't bother me, if/when I saw results. Not happening with this bill.

I donate money privately, not to wasteful government.

[Mikeg]

.....Don't blame liberals for a bill that smacks of Republican boondoogles......

What are you talking about?

Even the Detroit Free Press has made it clear that Proposal 1's "increased funding for schools, local governments and the EITC are all concessions Democratic lawmakers extracted for supporting the road-funding package when leaders of the Legislature's GOP majority couldn't muster enough Republican votes to pass it."

[Dan Wesson]

What are you talking about?

Even the Detroit Free Press has made it clear that Proposal 1's "increased funding for schools, local governments and the EITC are all concessions Democratic lawmakers extracted for supporting the road-funding package when leaders of the Legislature's GOP majority couldn't muster enough Republican votes to pass it.

Now you went a did it Mike!
St. Sumas is gonna change her vote!!

[Mikeg]

From the "Safe Roads Yes on Proposal 1" March 10th press release:

"The Safe Roads Yes on Proposal 1 campaign today launched its second television ad, featuring a school bus driver concerned about how Michigan's cracked and crumbling roads and bridges threaten the safety of children traveling to and from school."

Here's the video, in which bus driver Kiesha Boose says,

"Proposal 1 means safer roads and bridges. If that means paying a penny more, sign me up!"

How disingenuous. If only this proposed Constitutional Amendment and it's associated legislation were going to cost us "a penny more".

[Pam]

Republicans have the majority in Lansing. They had a chance to pass other roads bills and chose not to. Editorial from last summer:

http://www.mlive.com/lansing-news/in...ailure_of.html

The bill was put up for a vote countless times, and again, Democrats lived up to their end of the bargain while Republicans failed to. In the end, Republicans simply chose to give up and go home to enjoy the summer vacation they gave themselves rather than continue to work until the job got done.

[Mikeg]

Republicans have the majority in Lansing.

That doesn't refute the fact that for a Constitutional Amendment to become a ballot proposal such as Proposal 1, it requires a two-thirds majority of the members elected to and serving in each house. The Republicans do not have that two-thirds majority in the House of Representatives.

[sumas]

Now you went a did it Mike!
St. Sumas is gonna change her vote!!

Thank you for my morning laugh. Stands up there with "Tell us what you really think Sumas"

That's Ste Sumas, I think, check with Canuck, my french is very rusty.

[antongast]

So, based on the discussion here and elsewhere, it seems like this proposal is probably not going to pass. I guess my question for the "no" voters is, what's your proposed alternative to investing money into our moonscaped roads? Are you all planning to buy monster trucks? I just don't understand the thinking that this isn't a problem that requires immediate action, or that low taxes are somehow more important than being able to drive down the fucking street at night without breaking an axle.

[Mikeg]

So, based on the discussion here and elsewhere, it seems like this proposal is probably not going to pass. I guess my question for the "no" voters is, what's your proposed alternative to investing money into our moonscaped roads? Are you all planning to buy monster trucks? I just don't understand the thinking that this isn't a problem that requires immediate action, or that low taxes are somehow more important than being able to drive down the fucking street at night without breaking an axle.

I suggest that you direct your vulgarities towards the people who put Proposal 1 on the ballot, not towards those who plan to vote against it. Obviously our legislators don't agree with you that our roads are a problem that requires immediate action. If they did, they wouldn't have proposed a Constitutional Amendment and appropriations scheme that would increase taxes by $3.665 billion over the first two fiscal years but would only spend 34.1% of it on roads.

[sumas]

So, based on the discussion here and elsewhere, it seems like this proposal is probably not going to pass. I guess my question for the "no" voters is, what's your proposed alternative to investing money into our moonscaped roads? Are you all planning to buy monster trucks? I just don't understand the thinking that this isn't a problem that requires immediate action, or that low taxes are somehow more important than being able to drive down the fucking street at night without breaking an axle.

That is an easy answer, dedicate bills or proposals to specfic issues. Repairs cost money, money was squandered. I would vote for road repair just not in the form proposed. Be nice if we had street lights to see the potholes or pedestrians that prefer streets to crumbling sidewalks. I'd vote for that too. Separate issues.

[antongast]

I suggest that you direct your vulgarities towards the people who put Proposal 1 on the ballot, not towards those who plan to vote against it.

Oh, there is no love lost between me and the Michigan legislature. I think they're about the sorriest bunch of dimwitted, bigoted, small-minded corporate stooges you're ever likely to find, and I think they've fucked this up about as royally as they fuck everything else up.

I just don't see how a "no" vote makes that state of affairs any better. All that will do is punt the issue back to the same bunch of idiots so they can spend another year doing jackshit to address it.

[Dan Wesson]

Oh, there is no love lost between me and the Michigan legislature. I think they're about the sorriest bunch of dimwitted, bigoted, small-minded corporate stooges you're ever likely to find, and I think they've fucked this up about as royally as they fuck everything else up.

I just don't see how a "no" vote makes that state of affairs any better. All that will do is punt the issue back to the same bunch of idiots so they can spend another year doing jackshit to address it.

There are makers and there are takers. I got this feeling the makers are getting gored by all levels of government. No it isn't just about roads, it's about this...

#1 Air Transportation Taxes [[just look at how much you were charged the last time you flew)
#2 Biodiesel Fuel Taxes
#3 Building Permit Taxes
#4 Business Registration Fees
#5 Capital Gains Taxes
#6 Cigarette Taxes
#7 Court Fines [[indirect taxes)
#8 Disposal Fees
#9 Dog License Taxes
#10 Drivers License Fees [[another form of taxation)
#11 Employer Health Insurance Mandate Tax
#12 Employer Medicare Taxes
#13 Employer Social Security Taxes
#14 Environmental Fees
#15 Estate Taxes
#16 Excise Taxes On Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans
#17 Federal Corporate Taxes
#18 Federal Income Taxes
#19 Federal Unemployment Taxes
#20 Fishing License Taxes
#21 Flush Taxes [[yes, this actually exists in some areas)
#22 Food And Beverage License Fees
#23 Franchise Business Taxes
#24 Garbage Taxes
#25 Gasoline Taxes
#26 Gift Taxes
#27 Gun Ownership Permits
#28 Hazardous Material Disposal Fees
#29 Highway Access Fees
#30 Hotel Taxes [[these are becoming quite large in some areas)
#31 Hunting License Taxes
#32 Import Taxes
#33 Individual Health Insurance Mandate Taxes
#34 Inheritance Taxes
#35 Insect Control Hazardous Materials Licenses
#36 Inspection Fees
#37 Insurance Premium Taxes
#38 Interstate User Diesel Fuel Taxes
#39 Inventory Taxes
#40 IRA Early Withdrawal Taxes
#41 IRS Interest Charges [[tax on top of tax)
#42 IRS Penalties [[tax on top of tax)
#43 Library Taxes
#44 License Plate Fees
#45 Liquor Taxes
#46 Local Corporate Taxes
#47 Local Income Taxes
#48 Local School Taxes
#49 Local Unemployment Taxes
#50 Luxury Taxes
#51 Marriage License Taxes
#52 Medicare Taxes
#53 Medicare Tax Surcharge On High Earning Americans Under Obamacare
#54 Obamacare Individual Mandate Excise Tax [[if you don’t buy “qualifying” health insurance under Obamacare you will have to pay an additional tax)
#55 Obamacare Surtax On Investment Income [[a new 3.8% surtax on investment income)
#56 Parking Meters
#57 Passport Fees
#58 Professional Licenses And Fees [[another form of taxation)
#59 Property Taxes
#60 Real Estate Taxes
#61 Recreational Vehicle Taxes
#62 Registration Fees For New Businesses
#63 Toll Booth Taxes
#64 Sales Taxes
#65 Self-Employment Taxes
#66 Sewer & Water Taxes
#67 School Taxes
#68 Septic Permit Taxes
#69 Service Charge Taxes
#70 Social Security Taxes
#71 Special Assessments For Road Repairs Or Construction
#72 Sports Stadium Taxes
#73 State Corporate Taxes
#74 State Income Taxes
#75 State Park Entrance Fees
#76 State Unemployment Taxes [[SUTA)
#77 Tanning Taxes [[a new Obamacare tax on tanning services)
#78 Telephone 911 Service Taxes
#79 Telephone Federal Excise Taxes
#80 Telephone Federal Universal Service Fee Taxes
#81 Telephone Minimum Usage Surcharge Taxes
#82 Telephone State And Local Taxes
#83 Telephone Universal Access Taxes
#84 The Alternative Minimum Tax
#85 Tire Recycling Fees
#86 Tire Taxes
#87 Tolls [[another form of taxation)
#88 Traffic Fines [[indirect taxation)
#89 Use Taxes [[Out of state purchases, etc.)
#90 Utility Taxes
#91 Vehicle Registration Taxes
#92 Waste Management Taxes
#93 Water Rights Fees
#94 Watercraft Registration & Licensing Fees
#95 Well Permit Fees
#96 Workers Compensation Taxes
#97 Zoning Permit Fees

Despite all these they are still broke and deep in debt.

The takers are beginning to outnumber the makers so what do you do?
You go after the children and those not born yet to make liable for your debt today.

There is going to have to be a giant reset eventually that should include taxes too.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Nail on the head, antongast.

[antongast]

There are makers and there are takers. I got this feeling the makers are getting gored by all levels of government.

Oh, spare me.

[Gpwrangler]

So, based on the discussion here and elsewhere, it seems like this proposal is probably not going to pass. I guess my question for the "no" voters is, what's your proposed alternative to investing money into our moonscaped roads? Are you all planning to buy monster trucks? I just don't understand the thinking that this isn't a problem that requires immediate action, or that low taxes are somehow more important than being able to drive down the fucking street at night without breaking an axle.

My plan is to do what I've always done - avoid potholes and avoid a few roads that are really bad. Keep tires inflated and replace when worn, not when I run out of "donut" spares to put on like so many in this area. A replacement steel rim for most cars with reasonable wheels and tires is $100 or less and far cheaper than an extra $500 on my taxes every year for this bullshit. If you MUST have a $2000 set of rims on your car, buy insurance for the damned things.

I've never broken any part of any car because of our roads in 40 years and I put above average miles per year on my car. If they want money to fix the roads I want to know exactly what the projects are, how much they cost and when they will be done. Don't show me crying people worrying about their 16 year old kids [[who frankly are more of a menace than any pothole by the way) and telling me we need to write a blank check or we'll all die.

Send patching and and repair crews to fix the worst spots [[they are already on the payroll) and come up with a real plan to address bad roads. I am NOT against paying money for good roads but scaring everyone with stupid commercials and lies is not the way to get it done.

[Wesley Mouch]

No, take the average two-income family in Roseville, Allen Park or Wyandotte in a $175,000 home who may or may not have a cabin up north. They are not super rich and that deduction helps a lot. Thankfully it is only up for discussion in places like this board. Homeowners help the economy in many ways. And those home equity loans [[ that get so many in trouble) often fund college educations or needed repairs that keep many homes from going downhill.

Start penalizing homeowners and and hard working people and maybe more communities will circle the drain. If you want hard-working people to stop buying cars and real estate that's fine. Put up a bill to remove the interest deduction. It will probably be less popular than this bullshit road bill. I swear to God extreme wealth to some on this board means your car is all painted factory color with four matching tires. Geez my spare is even original I must really be wealthy.

I can't wait to see this get voted down. Maybe it will be just the start of turning this train around before we turn socialist. Last I heard there was almost 70% disapproval of the road bill.

Wrangler, I do not favor 'penalizing' average families with $175,000. However I see rich people getting 5 times the tax savings of an average family, and I see inequality being applied.

The inequality is even more pronounced when you consider that poorer families get ZERO credit.

[Dan Wesson]

Oh, spare me.

Man I sure don't miss them days of listening to the dog working up a good puke...

been out eatin grass?

[Carcross]

The road funding problem is just like a bad credit card bill. Every year you wait, the amount needed to pay it off increases exponentially.

Like him or despise him, Gov. Snyder has continually asked the GOP legislature for a road funding bill and because of the no-tax tea party nothing has been able to get passed. The closest thing is this Prop 1, which has been punted to a citizen vote.

There are things I don't like about Prop 1, but as a tax payer I have to ask myself, if Prop 1 fails what will happen? And the future basically paints a picture of even worse roads, more bridges being closed, and eventually several years from now the situation becoming so dire that something will finally happen. Unfortunately, just like the credit card analogy, the cost to make the repairs at that point years from now will be even more costly then now, and I the taxpayer will ultimately have to pay more than had prop 1 passed.

So being fiscally conservative, I will vote yes on Prop 1 because even though there are parts about it I don't like, it passing would save me from paying even more in taxes down the road.