Michigan transit tax Rejected [MI Prop 15-1]

[emu steve]

This is why Michigan residents are screwed. Everything around this freakin state has some kind of tax attached to it. The politicians don't give a _hit whether we vote yes or no. We're gonna get burned either way.

The problem with taxes isn't so much the aggregate amount or aggregate percentage [[because for some the rate isn't really high. Insert Mitt comment here about his Federal taxes for say 2011, 2012, etc.).

The federal income tax for someone making millions per year and paying say 10 - 12% isn't high. It's actually pretty damn low.

But it is the effect of sales taxes, gasoline taxes, real estate taxes, hotel taxes, taxes on cell phone service, etc. etc. etc. make the bite seem worse than it is.

[emu steve]

Maybe Washington is trying to get its act together for highway funding???

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...bill/70649736/

[Dan Wesson]

The problem with taxes isn't so much the aggregate amount or aggregate percentage [[because for some the rate isn't really high. Insert Mitt comment here about his Federal taxes for say 2011, 2012, etc.).

The federal income tax for someone making millions per year and paying say 10 - 12% isn't high. It's actually pretty damn low.

But it is the effect of sales taxes, gasoline taxes, real estate taxes, hotel taxes, taxes on cell phone service, etc. etc. etc. make the bite seem worse than it is.

If you would drop the word 'seem' in your last sentence then I believe your assessment is 110% correct.

Think not for a minute that a significant part of finance planning that avoiding taxes is not a priority.

There is a whole lot of smart people employed working on that task. Can you pay for the services provided to accomplish what you describe in your first sentence? Who do you think does?

[Dan Wesson]

Maybe Washington is trying to get its act together for highway funding???

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...bill/70649736/

There you go. Unlike the State of Michigan the U.S. Government is not required to balance their Budget.

Problem solved!

Sarc/off

[emu steve]

I want to get back to a flat tax and a political commercial [[proposed):

Income Tax Rates:

Mitt Romney 14% [[insert photo)

W. Va. Coalminer 25%

Is that fair?

Either right or wrong, for the next 5 - 10 years, Mitt will be the face of the class of individuals who make 5, 10, 20M a year income without any of it being wages or salary and how his income is treated vs. someone who makes 25, 50 or 100K from wages and salary.

Let the fun begin!!!

[Cincinnati_Kid]

The problem with taxes isn't so much the aggregate amount or aggregate percentage [[because for some the rate isn't really high. Insert Mitt comment here about his Federal taxes for say 2011, 2012, etc.).

The federal income tax for someone making millions per year and paying say 10 - 12% isn't high. It's actually pretty damn low.

But it is the effect of sales taxes, gasoline taxes, real estate taxes, hotel taxes, taxes on cell phone service, etc. etc. etc. make the bite seem worse than it is.

I understand this doesn't affect the rich, they find loopholes anyway, and most can afford to pay the tax. It's the middle class to poverty line citizens these taxes probably hurt the most.

[Dan Wesson]

Now watch the public manipulation employed by the hired guns. It will be straight out of the Edward Bernays play book.

Don't use facts. Appeal to the emotions.

[Wesley Mouch]

Now watch the public manipulation employed by the hired guns. It will be straight out of the Edward Bernays play book.

Don't use facts. Appeal to the emotions.

Listen to the background music in that video. A video about the evils of manipulation that uses manipulation of your emotions to get you to their point of view. Hilarious.

But thanks for the 'history' lesson.

[sirrealone]

I'm voting YES. FYI, I am Republican, and started off NO on this, but have switched. Here is why:

1) It adds funding to roads. Our roads are in poor shape. The state is collecting less than they did 20 years ago, and with the price increases over that time, they can afford only 60% or so of what they spent 20 years ago.

2) It directs all taxes collected at the pump toward transportation - Under the current system, the taxes collected at Michigan pumps are among the highest in the nation, but the amount spent on roads is the lowest. Most other states do not have a sales tax on gas purchases. Now, we won't either. This directs funding as it should be directed.

3) It increases educational funding - By removing the sales tax on gas, the amount collected for education decreases, but increasing the sales tax makes up for that funding shortfall and then some. As a parent of two kids just starting in elementary school, this is a positive.

4) Nobody in the world is paying 16.67% more for their goods because of the sales tax increase. You're paying 1% more. The cost of the 'item' itself is not going up. There are many who will have you believe that something you buy for $50 is suddenly going to cost you 1/6th more than it does today if this passes. No, under that scenario, it will go from costing $53.00 to costing you $53.50

5) Registration fees aren't going up, they just aren't going down. If you go and buy a new car and your registration is $200, under the current system it goes down to $180 then $160 and stays there in subsequent years [[numbers might not be exact but they're close). If the change passes, the $200 will still be $200. That's not going up, it's just that the subsequent years are not going to decrease. Most people, when considering the purchase of a car, don't factor in the cost of registration fees as a big factor. Are you now telling me that there will be people that would have completed a purchase of a car that will now decline to do so because "Woah, that $40 per year in registration fees in a couple of years just kills it for me." It just seems grasping at straws on this one.

6) I often see 'no' ads saying that our sales tax will be among the highest in the country if this passes. They leave out the part where many other states have local city or county sales taxes that get added on, making Michigan's effective rate nowhere near the top sales tax rates.

7) Our politicians, if this is kicked back to them, will not fix this. Part of the problem that I see is that the voters [[and therefore their reps) for the U.P. and rural areas of the state know that the funding will not proportionally reach their area of the state. The majority of the roads and the most heavily used ones are here, not up in the tip of the UP. So, legislators for those areas will likely continue to hold back support for any legislation that will result in a tax increase for their constituents. I don't see how this changes if the voters kick this back. All it will do is delay this even further and let the roads crumble even more.

8) The level of misinformation is much less on the 'yes' side. Those lobbying for this are, for the most part, stating the facts: Our roads are terrible and they need more funding and this will acheive that. Those lobbying against are putting out more skewed numbers or targeting only one side of a fact in order to make their points heard.

[msamslex]

Got two robo calls on 3/28, @11:39am & 6:38pm CID said Safe Roads Yes. No more calls since then. I didn't answer and no message was left.

[Gpwrangler]

Good catch. Thumbs up! I wish more Michigan citizens were just as astute.

Wishful thinking. They all look for the elephant or the jackass and vote accordingly.

[emu steve]

Where does the gov stand on this? For those who think I'm far out, I like Snyder and respect his judgment [[I have less respect for some political kooks in his party though).

[lpg]

Dan Wesson..The old saying "If you can't fool 'em with facts, Baffle 'em with bullshit" applies.

[Dan Wesson]

Where does the gov stand on this? For those who think I'm far out, I like Snyder and respect his judgment [[I have less respect for some political kooks in his party though).

Rick is a 1%'er. Don't know where he would stand on this. Won't bother him at all financially.

[Wesley Mouch]

I want to get back to a flat tax and a political commercial [[proposed):

Income Tax Rates:

Mitt Romney 14% [[insert photo)

W. Va. Coalminer 25%

Is that fair?

Either right or wrong, for the next 5 - 10 years, Mitt will be the face of the class of individuals who make 5, 10, 20M a year income without any of it being wages or salary and how his income is treated vs. someone who makes 25, 50 or 100K from wages and salary.

Let the fun begin!!!

I am a strong flat tax believer -- with a significant exemption for the first dollars.

But I write to ask all to consider that fairness is not necessarily the most important goal. Sure, I think Mitt paying 1/2 as much proportionately as a coal miner is a 'canary' deserving of watching. To me what matters is not whether Mitt's effective rate is 1, 2, 23 or 36. What matters is what the Mitts of the world are doing with their wealth. If they're using their income in support of society, then our tax policy should reward them. If they are not, then it should not. I trust the Mitt's of the world to better use their income than I trust Christie or Pelosi.

[Dan Wesson]

What short memories the public has. Remember the changes made to the tax code in 2011?

The freep has a follow up article last year.

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/c...yder/16683967/

Revenue from business taxes fell by about $1.7 billion after the elimination of the Michigan Business Tax [[MBT), replaced in 2012 by a 6% flat corporate income tax. About 95,000 businesses no longer pay state taxes. In addition, the repeal of the business personal property tax passed this year by the Legislature is estimated to reduce state revenue from business by $350 million in fiscal year 2017.


Hmmmmmmmmmmmm..........

[emu steve]

I am a strong flat tax believer -- with a significant exemption for the first dollars.

But I write to ask all to consider that fairness is not necessarily the most important goal. Sure, I think Mitt paying 1/2 as much proportionately as a coal miner is a 'canary' deserving of watching. To me what matters is not whether Mitt's effective rate is 1, 2, 23 or 36. What matters is what the Mitts of the world are doing with their wealth. If they're using their income in support of society, then our tax policy should reward them. If they are not, then it should not. I trust the Mitt's of the world to better use their income than I trust Christie or Pelosi.

Maybe you went right over my head...

Are you implying that money is better in the hands of Mitt, because he might use it more wisely than say me?

He might spend his discretionary monies on the arts while I might go to Vegas.

Where I disagree is that the rich can waste or even save the money. Working class will spend it on the necessities of life. Money in the hands of the working and middle classes are dollars which will be spent within the economy and drive demand for more goods and services.

The rich might increase demand for Babe Ruth baseball cards.

[Gpwrangler]

I am a strong flat tax believer -- with a significant exemption for the first dollars.

[[Snip)

If they're using their income in support of society, then our tax policy should reward them. If they are not, then it should not. I trust the Mitt's of the world to better use their income than I trust Christie or Pelosi.

Exemption for the first dollars? Which first dollars? And how does one use their income in support of society? Who makes the determination?

Scary shit.

[Gpwrangler]

Maybe you went right over my head...

Are you implying that money is better in the hands of Mitt, because he might use it more wisely than say me?

He might spend his discretionary monies on the arts while I might go to Vegas.

Where I disagree is that the rich can waste or even save the money. Working class will spend it on the necessities of life. Money in the hands of the working and middle classes are dollars which will be spent within the economy and drive demand for more goods and services

hmmmmm...spending drives the economy regardless of who does the spending.

This is thread is circling the drain.

[Dan Wesson]

hmmmmm...spending drives the economy regardless of who does the spending.

This is thread is circling the drain.

But who does the spending drives the economy where they want it to go.

Example: The F.I.RE economy. How has that worked out so far?

[Jimaz]

... What matters is what the Mitts of the world are doing with their wealth. If they're using their income in support of society, then our tax policy should reward them. If they are not, then it should not....

Which brings up this recent update to the story about his mansion's car elevator: Mitt Romney might sell oceanfront mansion with car elevator: Report

In any case, the Romneys certainly won't be homeless. Among their other real estate holdings are a ski lodge in Park City, a home outside Salt Lake City, and a summer home on Lake Winnipesaukee in New Hampshire.

The real story here is that he's too poor to afford elevators that lift entire mansions.

[Gpwrangler]

But who does the spending drives the economy where they want it to go.

Example: The F.I.RE economy. How has that worked out so far?

The economy is doing just fine. Could be a lot worse. Real estate investing? Don't give a shit. I bought mine to live in, not use as an ATM.

Being jealous of rich people never got anyone anywhere.

[Pam]

Where does the gov stand on this? For those who think I'm far out, I like Snyder and respect his judgment [[I have less respect for some political kooks in his party though).

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ding/25020099/

The Gov. is supporting Prop. 1.

[Dan Wesson]

Being jealous of rich people never got anyone anywhere.

I guess on a personal level that is probable.

Now when a significant portion of the population of the whole is jealous of rich people then that becomes a different story.

[emu steve]

http://www.freep.com/story/news/loca...ding/25020099/

The Gov. is supporting Prop. 1.

With a Republican Gov and Dems supporting Prop 1 who can be against it?

I'm not saying it will pass 75 - 25, but it should have enough bipartisan support to easily pass.

Any public opinion polls?