Michigan transit tax Rejected [MI Prop 15-1]

[Lowell]

I will vote NO on this proposal for the following reasons:

1. Taxes to pay for roads and their upkeep should be paid for by those who use them, particularly commercial users. This should be done via vehicle registration fees and taxes on fuel.
2. Any bill to raise road funds must start with lowering truck weight limits to federal standards or lower. Michigan’s highest-in-the-nation maximum weight limit for trucks of 164,000-pound gross weight limit — which is more than double the federal standard of 80,000 pounds — is causing unnecessary damage to Michigan roads.
3. This is a regressive tax. The working stiff struggling with little disposable income pays the same rate as the rich guy. The poor with no cars -- 30% of households in our urban cores -- pay the same and get no direct benefit.
4. Nothing in the proposal mandates percentages on how the resulting funds will be allocated. The non-road-related plums thrown in to attract votes can easily be ignored especially by the current legislature. Caveat Emptor.

[emu steve]

I skimmed the whole thread. This post stood out as being remarkably sane. I quoted it in full to nudge the ratio coherent thought vs of crazy talking points.

I'll add that tying gas tax increases to inflation seems to be the key to long-term road maintenance. From what I've read, most states struggle with road funding because they their gas tax was specified [[decades ago, usually) as X cents per gallon, rather than a percentage of wholesale price. So even when we were paying $4/gal, the states were getting relatively little. And then compounding this with the increased fuel efficiency.

I think the best argument for voting NO is to "send a message that the government should come back with a better plan," or whatever. Except that isn't the message being sent. People will always interpret election results however they want. It's not a place for that level of nuance. Your choice is "yes" or "no," not "no, six inches more to the left."

Don't let perfection be the enemy of good enough.

Good post.

This is one of those unbelievable situations where governments [[plural, all over the country) could never get ANYTHING done.

Maybe some indexing to BLS's Producer Price Index gasoline index [[just like Social Security, etc. index to BLS' Consumer Price Index to measure changes in prices). This could be done once a year say after BLS publishes its final index for the year [[e.g., the final index for 2014 vs. 2013). AND the gas tax could go down [[as well as go up).

Or even every few years raise it a few pennies. Should that be a herculean task???

With gasoline averaging say 3 bucks / gallon over the last 5 years, would consumers notice a 3 cent a gallon increase? There is so much volatility in gasoline prices that a few cents tax increase would not get noticed.

JUST DO SOMETHING.

[Dan Wesson]

I voted no here and on the absentee ballot because if you look at the last two tax initiatives and this one you can plainly see the whole picture. It's a giant tax burden shift from business to the non-business population.

What did they expect to happen. Remove a coupla billion....... gotsta get it somewhere else. On top of what the ongoing recession has wrought. A 11% decrease in Michigan tax collections.

Got to maintain the Status Quo, Yo!

There has been much talk about this scenario across the US raising taxes by large margins but this damn shifting of tax burdens smacks of us vs. them.

[Gpwrangler]

Gpwrangler, a pattern emerges.

A 21 century American Apologist...

American apologists

At the end of the 19th and at the beginning of the 20th century a group of conservative American economists and social scientists became known as the American Apologists. Their different theoretical orientations notwithstanding, they were apologists for the status quo and rose to defend the new industrial age and condemn unions and populist causes.

Party on sir, with all due respect.

Whatever. I apologize to no one. And this is a moot point. This bill will fail. And I WILL party on. Great weather today, enjoyed my toys and everything I WORKED for. What a concept.

[Bobl]

One of the few advantages of being older than dirt is the ability to vote early, via absentee ballot. No lines, no bother with inclement weather. Why should voting not be this convenient for everyone, in all elections? I voted no.

[Dan Wesson]

One of the few advantages of being older than dirt is the ability to vote early, via absentee ballot. No lines, no bother with inclement weather. Why should voting not be this convenient for everyone, in all elections? I voted no.

It is. Just tell 'em you won't be in town. That's what I did.

[Cliffy]

Whatever. I apologize to no one. And this is a moot point. This bill will fail. And I WILL party on. Great weather today, enjoyed my toys and everything I WORKED for. What a concept.

Wow great like you're the only one that works. I'm guessing all those people who drive besides me every morning are getting some magical checks. Enough with the "worked for" bullshit.

[sumas]

One of the few advantages of being older than dirt is the ability to vote early, via absentee ballot. No lines, no bother with inclement weather. Why should voting not be this convenient for everyone, in all elections? I voted no.

Most likely you are not older than dirt. More fun to say, well seasoned. Easy to vote via mail but we actually like voting in person as we do not trust mailed ballots to be counted properly. The poll workers are local residents and so showing up is almost a social event. Taking cookies.

A resounding NO. As mentioned, I think most tack ons are worthy. The bill is just too evasive. No way to track the money.

[Gpwrangler]

Wow great like you're the only one that works. I'm guessing all those people who drive besides me every morning are getting some magical checks. Enough with the "worked for" bullshit.

Just answering a nasty response with a similar response. And yes, this vote will fail.
Edit: just looked at the dyes poll. 68-% No votes. Kinda surprising, wonder if it reflects what the outcome will be?

[Dan Wesson]

https://michigantaxpayers.com/donate-radio.php

A coupla radio ads

[Cliffy]

Just answering a nasty response with a similar response. And yes, this vote will fail.
Edit: just looked at the dyes poll. 68-% No votes. Kinda surprising, wonder if it reflects what the outcome will be?

Of course it will fail and it should. Its just another hit piece on the middle class. Industries that actually damage the road expect me to support them again. Sick of the supporting the rich.

[Gpwrangler]

Of course it will fail and it should. Its just another hit piece on the middle class. Industries that actually damage the road expect me to support them again. Sick of the supporting the rich.

Then let's tax based on miles driven and vehicle weight. Simple.

[emu steve]

Then let's tax based on miles driven and vehicle weight. Simple.

I believe that is Lowell's point.

Gas tax is a user tax. The more you consume the more tax you pay.

Those who driver bigger, heavier vehicles and drive more miles will pay more.

And as was posted, many in Detroit don't have cars. Their gas/vehicle taxes should be zero dollars and zero cents. They may commute via buses, taxis, etc. and those would pay their share of taxes.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

^^^ Sounds like a plan to me. Tired of being taxed up the gazhoo, and the burden being put on the working class citizens. But who says life is fair right? They will have to go back to the drawing board as far as I'm concerned. I will be voting a resounding NO.

[Scottathew]

Right now, I plan on voting yes, although I'm not fully committed.

Roads are underfunded and neglected. We must maintain our infrastructure. It also helps out schools and local governments a little bit too.

People bitch and moan about roads no matter what. If they're broken the bitch that they're broken. If you want to raise taxes, they bitch and moan about taxes. If we close a lane to fix a road, they bitch that the lane is closed.

Some people are just not content, they want to complain no matter what. Proposal 1 isn't perfect, it's missing some stuff I'd like to see, but the world can't conform to everything I want, exactly how I want it.

It's a compromise that's good enough.


This is what I see happening: Right now the media is reporting that polling indicates the proposal would fail. However, there are too many unions behind this. They are most likely right now taping their commercials, building their war chests, and getting ready to go to battle. In the weeks leading to the election, you'll see nothing but VOTE-YES commercials.

I think it will pass. The only reason I can think it won't pass is old people that always vote no to anything tax related sending in their absentee ballots before the big advertising blitz.

[freckles]

I only wish there was an, "Oh, HELL no" box I could check.

[313WX]

I have a question.

Why is it I have seen and heard of people referring to the EITC as the Unearned Income Tax Credit?

You've been hanging around the wrong crowd...

[313WX]

I find the trouble with this attitude is that this is another attempt at maintaining and enhancing the status quo. The glory days are over. Things are downsizing. There is a group of entities that depend on the way things were. They are out of touch with the new reality.

The problem is people in Michigan still want to live as if the 1990s never went anywhere...

So when will we be addressing all of the unnecessary sprawl and moving everyone back into the city?

[gazhekwe]

NO. It's not the taxes so much, it's the impact. These bills will further confuse the already insanely Machiavellian school and road funding messes. It raises user taxes without providing any clear and adequate funding stream for road repairs. Allegedly there will not be any money for repairs until we have paid enough to settle existing bills. I am willing to throw this back onto the legislators for another year, since we have to wait that long anyway to see any results.

So, ineffective and lazy legislators, it's fine to raise taxes if you try and confuse voters enough so they can't tell how much impact their sacrifices will make?

I would also like to see some teeth in the construction regulations. For too long we have watched the lowest bidders do the most temporary repairs, only to have to shoulder the burden of early repairs and replacement with more of our tax dollars and less to spend on additional needs.

PS I have been practicing holding my nose and voting YES just to get SOMETHING done. I keep sticking on the question, WTF will this accomplish? I cannot see any direction other than paying off bills. No immediate action on roads.

[Bham1982]

So when will we be addressing all of the unnecessary sprawl and moving everyone back into the city?

Probably right after we ban private vehicle ownership and single family homeownership?

[313WX]

Probably right after we ban private vehicle ownership and single family homeownership?

I just find it hilarious that people always want to claim that the glory day are behind us and not coming back when we ask for them to pay for and maintain all of the infrastructure they need to support their living patterns, yet they don't actually want to change their living patterns...

[ABetterDetroit]

My biggest reason that I will vote NO.

486,892 Million dollars. That is roughly what Oakland, Wayne and Macomb county's sent to Lansing with 1 cent of sales tax in 2011 according to them. The number one, two and three largest sales tax generators by county in the state respectively. I am tired of sending tax money to Lansing and getting the shaft. If anyone actually believes that we would see anywhere near that spent back here in the tri-county area they are dreaming. We would be lucky to see one third return for infrastructure of any kind. Vote a tax increase on myself and neighbors so we can once again get a few dimes on the dollar? No thank you.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/tr...2_432538_7.pdf

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[townonenorth]

Then let's tax based on miles driven and vehicle weight. Simple.

Miles driven, maybe , Weight, no, unless just for commercial vehicles.

I am voting no, basically because I want the nimrods in Lansing to raise taxes on their own, instead of making US do it. When they tell Grover Norquist to stick it up his fat behind, then maybe they will grow a set and really legislate.

[ABetterDetroit]

Miles driven, maybe , Weight, no, unless just for commercial vehicles.

I am voting no, basically because I want the nimrods in Lansing to raise taxes on their own, instead of making US do it. When they tell Grover Norquist to stick it up his fat behind, then maybe they will grow a set and really legislate.

Lol "grow a set" I will believe it when I see it. Even the governor after winning his reelection, on this issue he folded like a house of cards to a bunch of lame duck turds.

[compn]

The road funding problem is just like a bad credit card bill. Every year you wait, the amount needed to pay it off increases exponentially.

lol i saw a similar comment about increases "exponentially" on mlive and some commenter there took the time to explain how exponentially was the complete wrong term.

it is an increase to fix the roads as time goes by, but not exponentially.