Buffalo, N.Y. vs. Detroit

[davewindsor]

Here's a link to 133 houses under $1000 in Detroit on Realtor.com This is probably the worst place to look because what realtor wants to go through the hassle and cost of listing for $60 [[6% commission) ? They pay more than that.

http://www.realtor.com/realestateand.../price-na-1000

Try realty trac but there's a 1000 there or even Trulia

Yes, I looked through that link before. Those are quit claims and ACRs and not apples to apples comparisons like I gave you. Detriot is a bigger city so the number on the market is higher. You still haven't proven anything.

[LodgeDodger]

I started a thread on City -Data.com comparing Detroit and Buffalo last year and there were a great many interesting responses- once can do a search.

I'm quite familiar with Buffalo. One difference is that Buffalo has quite a few safe neighborhoods where most buildings are intact. The East Side of Buffalo is not very nice however and Buffalo has its share of abandoned houses.

Buffalo is 2nd in the US as the most drivable city- one could get around anywhere easily at any time [[ Corpus Christi, TX is number one) [[DOT study)

Detroit housing on the other hand is cheaper much cheaper than comparable buildings in Buffalo - both cities have among the highest real estate taxes in the US.

South Buffalo is colder and snowier than north and the difference is substantial. Its just the way the wind blows in from the lake.

Byron Brown has not seemed to make any changes for the better, but at least he's not on probation.

Buffalo doesn't have the Tigers or Pistons .. but they don't have the Lions either- lol.

State U of NY at Buffalo is a good university - certainly better than Wayne State but not as good as Michigan - Ann Arbor.

Buffalo is only a tiny bit better at saving nice old buildings than Detroit- the attitude is not hat different.

Ocean, have you yet visited Detroit? If not, I hardly think you have any expertise in a comparison of the two cities. You were the guy who didn't know about Woodward Avenue and its significance to the area. Have you been to Wayne State? How can you make an accurate assesssment between WSU and U of M? Spare me the statistics.

[Ocean2026]

I only visited Detroit once but Buffalo many times. As for the universities there are many assessments by real experts Chronicle of Higher Education, London Times, Washington Monthly Gourman Report - I doubt anyone would really say Wayne State is better than the University of Michigan - Ann Arbor.. well maybe you.

I don't think its a bad thing that Detroit offers cheap housing- it could attract people, but there's always someone getting defensive.

[davewindsor]

I only visited Detroit once but Buffalo many times.

I knew it. That's why you sound like you don't know what you're talking about with Detroit.

[Ocean2026]

One doesn't have to visit Detroit to look at the city foreclosure lists and COUNT the houses, one doesn' t have to live in Detroit to see all the listings on Realtor.com or Trulia -- and if they weren't legit listings real estate agents wouldn't be paying to have them listed- they want to make money.

One doesn't have to live in Detroit to know that the University of Michigan Ann Arbor has a worldwide reputation while Wayne State in all the PROFESSIONAL ratings is at best an also ran.

Davewindsor have you been inside the Louisiana State Prison in Angola ? Probably not [[ wrong jurisdiction) yet you may have heard its a horrible place and that might be your opinion without having visited- have you been to Ethiopia? probably not but you will still say that the living conditions are worse than the US - correct. People dont have to spend that much time in Detroit to see both the positive - the great old buildings as well as the decay. They didn't have to be at the 1960s riots to know they were bad.

[davewindsor]

One doesn't have to visit Detroit to look at the city foreclosure lists and COUNT the houses, one doesn' t have to live in Detroit to see all the listings on Realtor.com or Trulia -- and if they weren't legit listings real estate agents wouldn't be paying to have them listed- they want to make money

Davewindsor have you been inside the Louisiana State Prison in Angola ? Probably not [[ wrong jurisdiction) yet you may have heard its a horrible place and that might be your opinion without having visited- have you been to Ethiopia? probably not but you will still say that the living conditions are worse than the US - correct. People dont have to spend that much time in Detroit to see both the positive - the great old buildings as well as the decay. They didn't have to be at the 1960s riots to know they were bad.

Are you comparing Detroit to a State Prison or a third world country now? WOW!

Counting the houses is irrelevant. I want an apples to apples comparison if you're claiming housing is cheaper in Detroit than in Buffalo.

As for those foreclosures you're referring to and saying agents wouldn't be listing $1,000 listings if they weren't legit. I know you mentioned real estate agents making 6% on a $1,000 listing in an earlier post and now saying they wouldn't be paying to have them listed if there wasn't money to be made. Boy are you misinformed.

Look, if you come across a listing listed for $1,000, those agents are making a lot more than 6%. Try a 70% commission. No agent's gonna work for $60, especially on a property with a messed up title or ACR that may end up with the agent getting sued. Whether the lawsuit is real or not, it's still a waste of time and resources for the agent to defend themselves in court. You think an agent's gonna bother for a $60 listing? That barely pays for gas and a one-day amortization on a Caddy or Lincoln.. Of that $1,000, they are paid a flat fee of at least $700 or more. On those small amounts, agents bill by the hour as a consultant to atleast the flat fee amount and get paid no matter what and that's why they list. So, it's not that there's money to made in selling the property, just listing the property.

And in Detroit, foreclosures are quit claims. You know what a quit claim is right? If you see a house for $1,000, it's not a $1,000 for a free and clear title. That's $1,000 for the vendor to add your name to title and remove their name from title. That's $1,000 plus whatever lien is on title, which is a lot more than $1,000. Also, in Michigan, tax certificates pay 50% interest. You have back taxes on a property with mill rates that calculate to over 15% and you pay $1,000 for a quit claim, the taxes owing can get to be enourmous and you assume those taxes in arrears and other liens. They can get so high that it's better to walk away from the property. You don't get a free and clear title. You don't get title insurance. In foreclosures, the original mortgagee removes their name as a quit claim, but it doesn't mean you end up with a free and clear title. If you think you can buy a $1,000 house in Detroit with free and clear title and can live in it legally as if $1,000 is all you'd pay [[to support your so called claim that housing is cheaper in Detroit) I think you're naive, delusional., and have absolutely no idea what you're talking about..

[Bearinabox]

Davewindsor have you been inside the Louisiana State Prison in Angola ? Probably not [[ wrong jurisdiction) yet you may have heard its a horrible place and that might be your opinion without having visited- have you been to Ethiopia? probably not but you will still say that the living conditions are worse than the US - correct.

If you met a native Ethiopian who had just been released from the Louisiana State Prison, and they told you what both places were like, you'd probably get into an argument with them based on a few things you read on the Internet. You shouldn't project your behavior patterns onto sane, rational human beings.

[Ocean2026]

Dave have you seen agents get 70% commissions? That certainly doesn't happen here. I've never seen an agent in the five or so states where I buy and sell real estate vary the commission outside of between 5% or 7%. No one can compare two places as they will NEVER be exactly the same. Percentagewise Detroit has more foreclosures on its list than Buffalo does- Buffalo's can be accessed on the City of Buffalo website. I don' t have to BE IN Detroit to know that most people in Detroit both here and on Topix - and city data. com are of the opinion that only downtown is safe -with some dispute as to including Indian Village and Palmer as safe places.

Detroit according to Schiller is one of the 5 or 6 biggest Declining markets Buffalo is at worst mixed with little change over the past 2 years and some evidence prices have increased. That alone is a huge difference. Detroit is getting cheaper..

Bear although I disagree with Dave I see his points. As for you saying I'm equating Detroit with a prison shows both your ignorance and intellectual dishonesty. The point was- you don' t have to visit somewhere to know something. Is Death Valley California hot in the summer as the weather service and other such records show consistent temps of 100 degrees? Bears expected reply " Now he's equating Detroit with a hot desert" Dumb and dishonest.

[dcmorrison12]

Dave have you seen agents get 70% commissions? That certainly doesn't happen here. I've never seen an agent in the five or so states where I buy and sell real estate vary the commission outside of between 5% or 7%. No one can compare two places as they will NEVER be exactly the same. Percentagewise Detroit has more foreclosures on its list than Buffalo does- Buffalo's can be accessed on the City of Buffalo website. I don' t have to BE IN Detroit to know that most people in Detroit both here and on Topix - and city data. com are of the opinion that only downtown is safe -with some dispute as to including Indian Village and Palmer as safe places.

Detroit according to Schiller is one of the 5 or 6 biggest Declining markets Buffalo is at worst mixed with little change over the past 2 years and some evidence prices have increased. That alone is a huge difference. Detroit is getting cheaper..

Bear although I disagree with Dave I see his points. As for you saying I'm equating Detroit with a prison shows both your ignorance and intellectual dishonesty. The point was- you don' t have to visit somewhere to know something. Is Death Valley California hot in the summer as the weather service and other such records show consistent temps of 100 degrees? Bears expected reply " Now he's equating Detroit with a hot desert" Dumb and dishonest.

I'm sorry, but don't try and pretend to know a city by only visiting it once - and we don't even have any details on how long or where you went etc. - not that it matters since you've only been here ONCE. We have enough of these people in the frickin Metro Detroit region, we don't need more from buffalo.

[urbanophile]

Here's an interesting web site: http://www.buffalorising.com/

Buffalo gets tons of snow.

Buffalo seemed to exist primarily for transportation routes that no longer are needed.

There has been a lot of enthusiasm for Buffalo in certain quarters. See this New York magazine piece, for example:

http://nymag.com/realestate/features/49491/

[LodgeDodger]

I've been to Buffalo a number of times, but I wouldn't say I could accurately compare it to Detroit. One can learn all they can about a city online, but it's never the same unless you've lived there.

Same thing with an education [[I'm thinking about the various "fresh outs" I've dealt with in my career). Academically, you may have learned all you can, but until you've used it in the real world, it's all just information.

[davewindsor]

Dave have you seen agents get 70% commissions? That certainly doesn't happen here. I've never seen an agent in the five or so states where I buy and sell real estate vary the commission outside of between 5% or 7%. No one can compare two places as they will NEVER be exactly the same. Percentagewise Detroit has more foreclosures on its list than Buffalo does- Buffalo's can be accessed on the City of Buffalo website. I don' t have to BE IN Detroit to know that most people in Detroit both here and on Topix - and city data. com are of the opinion that only downtown is safe -with some dispute as to including Indian Village and Palmer as safe places.

Yes, that's the conversion on a flat fee arrangement or retainer on a $1,000 listing. I know a broker in our office who's been doing flat fees on foreclosures in Detroit for years. $700 min. to list or to find a foreclosure. Name me one broker/agent in Detroit who'd list a $1000 property for $60? If someone from our office did that, our broker of record would be giving him the boot, not including the fact that he'd feel like the worst salesperson in the universe to accept such a low listing. That's not salesmanship. And, that 6% doesn't even include commission splits. Even to list a residential rental, it's standard to charge at least one month's rent, which is a lot higher than $60. 5-6% is the norm for $100K+ houses, but when you get into really low listing amounts, no one's gonna do it on that scale. Even for $20K vacant lots, our office has listed for as high as 20%. For $40K foreclosures, I know there's some guys that would do it for 4% because that's max. a bank would pay. Most won't. But, to list a $1,000 foreclosure for 6%, which is $60 that can even be split 4 ways making it $15. Forget it, no agent's gonna do it. There's too much time involved and potential to be sued for improper disclosure and errors. It's just not worth it.

As for safety, try walking around the different areas of Detroit during the day and see for yourself instead of just reading about it. Midtown is awesome. Just start walking down Woodward from downtown to as far as you can go northward in a day for your first city walk. Check out the DIA in midtown and their billion dollar art collection. Check out the Fisher building in New Center. You see an interesting street, walk down it. Another day, walk east down Jefferson and explore some interesting sidestreets. When you feel comfortable with it, come back another day and try some other streets. I've walked all over the city with the exception of southwest Detroit, and have never been threatened or mugged or had bullets fly by me. It's a very interesting city rich in a lot of architecture and history. It reminds me a lot of when I lived in Toronto. Maybe not the cleanest in some parts, but I think it's an adventure worth checking out. Sure, a couple beggars on Woodward will ask for spare change, which I'ved refused and nothing has ever happened to me. But, I get asked for spare change on every block in big cities like Toronto, so it's nothing unique.

So, if you're gonna move to Buffalo based on one visit to Detroit, be my guest because we don't need more people like you trying to convince others that Detroit sucks when we've experienced that it doesn't based mostly on a couples articles you've read . Some people just lack the vision and open mindedness to see the potential of this city being great once again. Some people don't care about history. Others like Ferchill rise to the occasion and make us open our minds by setting by example that it's you who has to make things happen to lead this city back into greatness and those who remain and also take up the same fight will also reap the financial rewards. We've still got a population many times greater than Buffalo, which gives Detroit a solid ground. This is not a deserted gold rush town. It's gonna happen.

[elmwood]

Old post, I know. As a Buffalo native, I'm interested in cultural similarities between Buffalo and Detroit. For example:

* The eyacksint. Buffalo is considered to be ground zero for The Great Northern Vowel Shift, and I've heard linguists claim that those living in the Buffalo area have the strongest Midland Northern accent among all speakers. In Erie and Cleveland, the accent is less evident [[it seems much more common in west suburban Cleveland and blue collar 'burbs than white-collar areas east of the Cuyahoga), but whenever I've heard Detroiters speak, I've done a double-take, wondering if they're really from the Buffalo/Rochester eee-YAYR-ee-uh.

* Use of the genitive case in everyday speech: da Kmart's, da Walmart's, da Rite Aid's, da Home Depot's, etc.

* Affinity for Canadian culture: love of hockey, Tim Horton Donuts, etc.

* Detroit exports to Buffalo, aside from cars, that aren't seen as exotic: Stroh's Beer, Vernor's, Faygo,

[Rocko]

Whenever the topic of the MC Depot comes up I love to reference Buffalo Central Terminal. It was built by the NYC in 1929, quite a distance outside of downtown [[like MC), Like MC, it was a division headquarters and had a large office building in addition to the platforms and waiting areas. It was vacated by Amtrak [[1979 vs MC in 1988) and several other reuse plans did not come to fruition. Unlike MC, however, the Buffalo station has an active group working slowly but surely to make repairs, hold events, and publicize the building and its history. If you ever have a reason to be in the area, it's worth checking out, even from just the street outside.

The National Trust for Historic Preservation is having their annual conference in Buffalo this fall. I'm really looking forward to this one as so much of what is presented in Buffalo will likely apply to Detroit and other rust-belt midwestern cities. I don't think Detroit should aspire to be Buffalo, but there are a few things Detroit could take notice of and work on that Buffalo has had success with.

[elmwood]

From the Buffalo News -

Get this: real estate is hot in Buffalo
Detroit's woes contrasts with our progress

Detroit's struggles got me thinking about otter similarities and differences between the two cites. Some that come to mind:

Colleges and universities. For a city its size, there's a surprising number of institutes of higher education located in the city: SUNY-University at Buffalo, SUNY-Buffalo State College, Canisius College, and several other small Catholic colleges. Excepting UB, none are very prestigious institutions, but most draw students from beyond the region. UB is building a new medical campus in the city, sparking a building boom just north of downtown.

Human-scaled major arterials. Buffalo's neighborhoods are centered on commercial streets that are fairly narrow; usually no more than one lane of traffic in either direction, on-street parking, and maybe a center turning lane. Main Street is as wide as it gets, with two traffic lanes in each direction. Detroit's major streets are generally much wider, and the bones aren't that great; a lot of one story taxpayer buildings. The spaces don't seem as comfortable and human scaled as neighborhoods in Buffalo, Chicago, or Pittsburgh.

Here's what Elmwood Avenue looks like, courtesy of Google Streetview. One lane of traffic in each direction, on-street parking.



Elmwood Village about four years ago. The neighborhood has gotten even busier and more upscale in recent years.

Here's Bailey Avenue, the main street in Kensington, my childhood neighborhood in Buffalo. Kensington experienced massive socioeconomic transition in the late 1980s and early 1990s, transitioning from a long-integrated, largely lower-middle class neighborhood to one that is predominantly working class and "majority minority". One lane of traffic in each direction, on-street parking.



Main Street in Buffalo. Two lanes in each direction, on-street parking [[both sides where there's no center turning lane or median). Buffalo's Metro Rail runs underneath Main Street.



Here's Woodward Avenue next to Palmer Woods. Five lanes of traffic in each direction no on-street parking.



People moving into cities want vibrant, comfortable neighborhood centers. The conditions don't seem right in Detroit to create such places, at least not without some major restructuring.

Consider Nine Mile in Ferndale, which has a profile similar to major arterials in Buffalo. Two story buildings frame the street nicely. No greenery, though.



Some of the mile roads in Detroit proper have a similar profile, but they're framed by one story taxpayers, making the street seem much wider. Here's Seven Mile.



Public schools. Generally, there's not the same obsession with school districts among homebuyers as one might see in Detroit, Chicago, and especially Cleveland; it's more about individual schools.

Buffalo's public schools don't have the greatest reputation. However, a long-established system of public magnet, vocational and elite/exam schools provide an incentive for young families to move into or stay the city; it's fairly easy to get a "suburban quality" education inside city limits.

Because of Buffalo's large [[but increasingly less devout) Catholic population, many just instinctively enroll their kids into the nearest school with a saint in its name, regardless of the quality of the underlying district.

[michimoby]

Two of those five Woodward lanes look ripe for light rail/BRT and dedicated bike thruways.

[tvaspen]

I stayed in Buffalo for a couple months [[seemed like a year) for work, it was just like Detroit but without the ambiance.

[elmwood]

Two of those five Woodward lanes look ripe for light rail/BRT and dedicated bike thruways.

The 1920s-era plans for Detroit's "super-highways", such as Woodward Avenue, called for light rail [[interurbans and streetcars) in the median. With the extraordinarily wide streets low traffic, and wide medians, it should be easy to dedicate a lane for BRT on Woodward.

A few areas where I think Detroit has Buffalo beat, IMHO:

1) The quality and amount of middle income housing stock in the city. Detroit is filled with solid, attractive houses that were originally built for middle income families. A large percentage are brick, and retain their original architectural detail.

Buffalo is known for its architecture, but its middle income housing is mostly frame, much of which was altered through the years. A higher proportion of Buffalo's housing stock were built for low income immigrants and factory workers; the pre-1910 worker's cottages and telescoping houses. They're the modal house on the city's East Side, the part of the city hit hardest by urban blight and socioeconomic transition.

2) Alleys. They result in a much better streetscape than in Buffalo, where nearly every house in post-WWI neighborhods has a driveway cut across the front yard.

3) A black middle class. Buffalo's black community emerged mainly during the second wave of the Great Migration. Those arriving in the Northeast and Great Lakes region during the second wave tended to be poorer, less educated, and less skilled than first wave migrants, which cities like Detroit, Cleveland and Chicago have in much larger numbers. There's only two middle class black neighborhoods in the entire Buffalo metro, Hamlin Park, and the small portion of Central Park east of Main Street Remaining middle income blacks tend to be scattered around much poorer neighborhoods in the East Side, or integrated into otherwise predominantly white middle and upper income neighborhoods west and north of Main Street.

What does this mean? The percentage of black entrepreneurs, business owners, and civic leaders outside of the clergy is much higher in Detroit than Buffalo.