Buffalo, N.Y. vs. Detroit

gravitymachine · August-06-09, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Kathleen

Other wonderful sites to see include Delaware Park and the remnants of the 1901 Pan-American Exposition, Forest Lawn Cemetery, the Wilcox Mansion where McKinley was taken after being shot [[this site is run by the National Park Service), and the City Hall [[anyone know if the observation deck has reopened?).

Forest Lawn Cemetery has a number of notables buried there including President Millard Fillmore, singer Rick James, literary critic Leslie Fiedler, Red Jacket, as well as several Buffalo mayors, inventors, etc.
[[A number of the historical figures denoted in The City of Light are buried here too.) There are also works designed by Augustus St. Gaudens, Stanford White, and Frank Lloyd Wright [[the Blue Sky Mausoleum that was built fairly recently realizing this never executed design).

I'm already looking forward to our return trip later this month.

the buffalo history museum, just across the scajaquada from the albright-knox also has the gun and bullet that killed mckinley. also drive down parkside ave on the west and north sides of the park, some really nice homes.

another amzing site to see is the HH Richardson complex, just south of buffalo state along forest ave, west of elmwood. it is his largest work, and was landscaped by fredrick law olmstead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._H._Richardson_Complex

all we have in detroit by HH Richardson is the bagley memorial fountain in Cadillac square

**Sandhouse** · August-06-09, 08:32 AM

I think it makes perfect sense to compare Detroit with Buffalo. Here's why:

Before about 1914, Detroit WAS Buffalo. That is, they were comparably-sized and similarly-situated manufacturing and transporting cities, along with Cleveland, Milwaukee, Indianapolis and several others with good railroad networks and substantial industrial bases that included early auto makers. Not on the scale of Pittsburgh, Chicago, or the east coast cities, but still powerful.

The difference was that Detroit had the confluence of Ford, Dodge, and GM, and investors willing to finance them. [[I don't know if this thesis originated with Charley Hyde, but I think that's who I first heard it from.) Buffalo had -- what? Pierce-Arrow? The Buffalo-Springfield tractor plant? Maybe a few truck makers? The automotive boom changed everything, and Detroit grew out of all proportion to every other city on the planet. Now the boom is over, Detroit no longer has a monopoly on autos, and the question is how to get back to "normal." It's always harder to shrink an enterprise than to grow it, which is why it's such a challenge to modernize the world's greatest-ever boomtown once the boom is over.

**iheartthed** · August-06-09, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Sandhouse

I think it makes perfect sense to compare Detroit with Buffalo. Here's why:

Before about 1914, Detroit WAS Buffalo. That is, they were comparably-sized and similarly-situated manufacturing and transporting cities, along with Cleveland, Milwaukee, Indianapolis and several others with good railroad networks and substantial industrial bases that included early auto makers. Not on the scale of Pittsburgh, Chicago, or the east coast cities, but still powerful.

The difference was that Detroit had the confluence of Ford, Dodge, and GM, and investors willing to finance them. [[I don't know if this thesis originated with Charley Hyde, but I think that's who I first heard it from.) Buffalo had -- what? Pierce-Arrow? The Buffalo-Springfield tractor plant? Maybe a few truck makers? The automotive boom changed everything, and Detroit grew out of all proportion to every other city on the planet. Now the boom is over, Detroit no longer has a monopoly on autos, and the question is how to get back to "normal." It's always harder to shrink an enterprise than to grow it, which is why it's such a challenge to modernize the world's greatest-ever boomtown once the boom is over.

I hear what you're saying, but every city that was a manufacturing hub during the first half of the 20th century also experienced explosive growth, not just Detroit. For comparison, Detroit roughly tripled in size between 1910 and 1950 while Chicago and New York did a little better than doubling in size. [[The oddball of large manufacturing hubs is probably Philadelphia, which only grew by one third during that time period.) Yes, Buffalo didn't experience the explosive growth because it wasn't a large employment center, but by contrast most large American cities today owe what they have become to them hosting a large manufacturing economy. [[And FYI, Los Angeles grew at a rate that far outpaced anything that happened in Detroit...)

Finally, the big difference between the early 20th century and today is that Canada is our largest trading partner now, not Great Britain. And Detroit is the largest and busiest crossing for trade with Canada.

ziggyselbin · August-06-09, 10:41 AM

The problem for you or your point of view iheart is that you are fundamentally dishonest about what Detroit is today in 2009.

All the clever arrogant posts won't change what people see with their own eyes.

Also a further or another definition of prominent that you conventiently omitted

3. leading, important, or well-known: a prominent citizen.

gravitymachine · August-06-09, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by ziggyselbin

The problem for you or your point of view iheart is that you are fundamentally dishonest about what Detroit is today in 2009.

yes. like it or not buffalo is by many measures a nicer place to live, period.

[[though obviuosly neither are in the league of chicago, san fran, nyc, boston, portland, etc)

**iheartthed** · August-06-09, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by ziggyselbin

The problem for you or your point of view iheart is that you are fundamentally dishonest about what Detroit is today in 2009.

All the clever arrogant posts won't change what people see with their own eyes.

Funny that you never rebut on any of my supporting points. You just try to attack my position by painting me as some wide-eyed, naive kid. If you want to prove your point then refute what I have said with examples of your own. If you cannot do that then STFU. I know what Detroit looks like today. I've probably spent more time there than you this year. I also know what it can potentially be, and it can potentially be a lot more than Buffalo, NY, or Pittsburgh.

**Baselinepunk** · August-06-09, 11:03 AM

buildings ---

I suggest you sample Buffalo in winter, then get back to us.

ziggyselbin · August-06-09, 11:29 AM

The thread that weaves all your posts iheart is the dishonsety that is at the core of everything you post. I don't wish to or care to refute anything you say. Anyone can go to Detroit and see that it is a once great city. But that is not the Detroit of today. That is all the rebuttal neccessary.

You probably have been in Detroit more then I have. So what. That doesn't change what is.

The one area I did challenge you directly on is the relevant definition of the word prominent. As I use it in this context i.e leading or important neither of which Detroit is or has been for decades.

**iheartthed** · August-06-09, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by ziggyselbin

The thread that weaves all your posts iheart is the dishonsety that is at the core of everything you post. I don't wish to or care to refute anything you say. Anyone can go to Detroit and see that it is a once great city. But that is not the Detroit of today. That is all the rebuttal neccessary.

You probably have been in Detroit more then I have. So what. That doesn't change what is.

The one area I did challenge you directly on is the relevant definition of the word prominent. As I use it in this context i.e leading or important neither of which Detroit is or has been for decades.

Oh okay, I get it now. We can't communicate with each other because I'm speaking English, while you're speaking... Some language where the word "prominent" has an entirely different definition than what it means in English. I guess our language barrier is probably why you misinterpret my posts as being "dishonest". Or maybe "dishonest" means something different in Ziglish than it does in English.

**buildingsofdetroit** · August-06-09, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Kathleen

the City Hall [[anyone know if the observation deck has reopened?).

Yep. Was up there. What a great - and free - attraction.

**buildingsofdetroit** · August-06-09, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Baselinepunk

buildings ---

I suggest you sample Buffalo in winter, then get back to us.

Never said I wanted to live there, BP.

**EastsideAl** · August-06-09, 04:40 PM

Still, what a terrible comedown to compare - unfavorably - the once mighty city of Detroit to poor little ol' Buffalo.

ziggyselbin · August-06-09, 05:18 PM

So you resort to your very predictable arrogance eh Iheart?

Again a definition of prominent relevant to this topic

2. prominent - conspicuous in position or importance; "a big figure in the movement"; "big man on campus"; "he's very large in financial circles"; "a prominent citizen"

if you refuse to acknowledge the point I'm sure others don't.

**Kathleen** · August-06-09, 09:42 PM

Thanks, BuildingsofDetroit! I'll put the City Hall Observation Deck on the itinerary. Also want to revisit the Ellicott Square Building...a Daniel Burnham beauty in downtown Buffalo.

**dtowncitylover** · August-06-09, 10:24 PM

Perhaps Detroit isn't as prominent as New York or Chicago, but it still has it's place in the world. Buffalo never did. If cities were human, I do believe Detroit would be represented well. The world runs on wheels because of us. The last time Buffalo made the news was that plane crash earlier this year. Detroit and her auto companies make the news routinely and still [[and forever) is the worldwide associated word for "auto". Detroit still has its prominence in the world, maybe not because of the great lifestyle and safe streets, but because of what business it has done about the world.

But Buffalo isn't known for their crime, either. So yes, maybe it would behoove Detroit to take pointers from her fellow rust belt cities, as the cliche goes. Let's try not to be other city's, but let's be Detroit. To fix Detroit, yes we are going to have see what other cities have done, but in the end Detroit will be like Detroit, not like Chicago or Buffalo or whatever.

**Ocean2026** · August-06-09, 10:24 PM

I started a thread on City -Data.com comparing Detroit and Buffalo last year and there were a great many interesting responses- once can do a search.

I'm quite familiar with Buffalo. One difference is that Buffalo has quite a few safe neighborhoods where most buildings are intact. The East Side of Buffalo is not very nice however and Buffalo has its share of abandoned houses.

Buffalo is 2nd in the US as the most drivable city- one could get around anywhere easily at any time [[ Corpus Christi, TX is number one) [[DOT study)

Detroit housing on the other hand is cheaper much cheaper than comparable buildings in Buffalo - both cities have among the highest real estate taxes in the US.

South Buffalo is colder and snowier than north and the difference is substantial. Its just the way the wind blows in from the lake.

Byron Brown has not seemed to make any changes for the better, but at least he's not on probation.

Buffalo doesn't have the Tigers or Pistons .. but they don't have the Lions either- lol.

State U of NY at Buffalo is a good university - certainly better than Wayne State but not as good as Michigan - Ann Arbor.

Buffalo is only a tiny bit better at saving nice old buildings than Detroit- the attitude is not hat different.

**buildingsofdetroit** · August-06-09, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kathleen

Thanks, BuildingsofDetroit! I'll put the City Hall Observation Deck on the itinerary. Also want to revisit the Ellicott Square Building...a Daniel Burnham beauty in downtown Buffalo.

Yes! Ellicott Square was AMAZING. Though someone told me that it wasn't designed by Burnham, only his company. That mosaic floor in the interior courtyard is as amazing as the steel framework for the glass ceiling. Ellicott was second only to the Guaranty Building in ooo-that's-pretty-tude.

**Ocean2026** · August-06-09, 10:26 PM

Dtowncitylover - WRONG Buffalo was once the 6th biggest city in the US and had one of the best known World's Fairs ever 1901. Niagara Falls [[ 15 min north ) has always been world famous as one of the 7 wonders.

**dtowncitylover** · August-06-09, 10:39 PM

WRONG-Buffalo was the 8th largest city in the 1900 census, the highest it would ever go and Detroit started it's upward climb. In the 1910 census, Detroit was #9, by 1920, it was #4.

That and having a world's fair 108 years ago doesn't make you a city of prominence in the world today. Detroit still, barely but still, has her car.

And wasn't the fair only prominent because President McKinely was shot there?

**davewindsor** · August-07-09, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

Detroit housing on the other hand is cheaper much cheaper than comparable buildings in Buffalo - both cities have among the highest real estate taxes in the US.

Where did you get this info from? Detroit housing is certainly not cheaper than Buffalo. Here's a functional 2,600 sq. ft 2 and a half storey duplex with updated hydro for $20,000 http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...332?gate=icrea

Here's a $3,000 boarded up 2 and a half storey. http://www.realtor.com/realestateand...731?gate=icrea

176 houses listed under $20,000 on mls.. I've been to Buffalo before. They have ghettos. They have fire bombed houses. I think proportionately in terms of good buildings to dumps it's very similar. But, on a much smaller scale. Housing is certainly not cheaper. I would argue the prices are about the same. They haven't recovered from their depressed real estate market any more than Detroit has. As far as real estate goes, they are pretty much in the same boat as Detroit.

**Ocean2026** · August-07-09, 06:56 PM

Davewindsor - Detroit has a bunch of houses under $1000- some of them aren't so horrible. Buffalo has nothing at that price that could be lived in and even then only on the east side below kensington and north of South Buffalo. Detroit has cheap houses in many different neighborhoods. I study housing - old buildings. One area where Buffalo is cheaper are in old abandoned churches- for some reason those are more expensive in Detroit. Buffalo probably has some more expensive neighborhoods where there is little crime. Finally the numbers will be out of sync if you consider Amherst and Clarence as Buffalo.

dtowncityriver - As for prominance - a bigger city I suppose would be more prominent, however the things Detroit is prominent for today are not nice things. Interesting point about the assassination - however the exposition was a really big deal - if you were a stamp collector there was a series about it. The Detroit riots in the late 60's are probably the event most associated with Detroit, although Isiah Thomas and the Pistons are up there too. Of course the decline of the auto industry is another major Detroit association.

**dtowncitylover** · August-07-09, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

dtowncityriver - As for prominance - a bigger city I suppose would be more prominent, however the things Detroit is prominent for today are not nice things. Interesting point about the assassination - however the exposition was a really big deal - if you were a stamp collector there was a series about it. The Detroit riots in the late 60's are probably the event most associated with Detroit, although Isiah Thomas and the Pistons are up there too. Of course the decline of the auto industry is another major Detroit association.

I think though Americans will think about cars rather than the crime and dirty image when they hear "Detroit". That happens alot with me when I go out of state, then they think of the crime.

**davewindsor** · August-07-09, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

Davewindsor - Detroit has a bunch of houses under $1000- some of them aren't so horrible. Buffalo has nothing at that price that could be lived in and even then only on the east side below kensington and north of South Buffalo. Detroit has cheap houses in many different neighborhoods. I study housing - old buildings. One area where Buffalo is cheaper are in old abandoned churches- for some reason those are more expensive in Detroit. Buffalo probably has some more expensive neighborhoods where there is little crime. Finally the numbers will be out of sync if you consider Amherst and Clarence as Buffalo..

Prove it. Show me links that are under $1000 and not so horrible. Apples to apples comparisons like I gave you a link for. Over 2,000 sq. ft. 2 and 1/2 storey. Quit claims and mandatory city enforced ACR for an occupancy certificate doesn't count because there are normally huge hidden costs that don't get factored into the listing price.

Also, if you look at the first link of the thread it said that someone bought a vacant downtown building approx. 60,000 sq. ft. for $25,000 last fall. Where the hell in downtown Detroit can you buy a vacant commercial building that cheap?

Detroit is also a much bigger area. Metro has over 5 million. How many people live in what's considered metro Buffalo [[with Clarence and Amherst)? Under 1 million? How much is really out of sync when you do that? You're comparing ants to elephants.

Retroit · August-07-09, 10:58 PM

{As silly as I think these city comparisons threads are, I just can't resist reading them.

}:

The most notable difference I found is:

Buffalo: 54% White, 37% Black
Detroit: 82% Black, 12% White

[[Please note: I did not say which city is better.)

**Ocean2026** · August-08-09, 08:49 PM

Here's a link to 133 houses under $1000 in Detroit on Realtor.com This is probably the worst place to look because what realtor wants to go through the hassle and cost of listing for $60 [[6% commission) ? They pay more than that.

http://www.realtor.com/realestateand.../price-na-1000

Try realty trac but there's a 1000 there or even Trulia