Detroit’s rebirth as ‘America’s Great Comeback City’ hits roadblock.....

[bailey]

It will not since Detroit doesn't have control over the mechanism flooding the region with excess infrastructure.

It has direct control over which streets get light, which roads get paved, which schools stay open and what areas get sewers and water service...etc.

no one is repopulating or infilling Detroit massively abandoned single family home neighborhoods in anything approaching the foreseeable future. There are way, way too many other options for suburban style living across the economic strata. those need to be deleted. there is no economic case for the existence of blocks with one or two homes left out of 20.

[iheartthed]

It has direct control over which streets get light, which roads get paved, which schools stay open and what areas get sewers and water service...etc.

no one is repopulating or infilling Detroit massively abandoned single family home neighborhoods in anything approaching the foreseeable future. There are way, way too many other options for suburban style living across the economic strata. those need to be deleted. there is no economic case for the existence of blocks with one or two homes left out of 20.

But the problem is that there is a glut of infrastructure at the regional level. If there wasn't the glut of infrastructure at the regional level then there would be an economic use for repurposing the dead infrastructure in Detroit. So wiping out Detroit doesn't fix that problem [[and eventually that problem will spread outside of Detroit). You can tear down half the city and in 20 years you'll be back to square one unless you fix the actual problem.

[Wesley Mouch]

...Schools will NOT improve no matter how much money is thrown at them. Schools will only improve when the voters start holding the school boards accountable....

psst.... that accountability is called Charter Schools. They may be imperfect. They may suck. But they are the only thing that holds school boards accountable.

[FlyOnTheWall]

psst.... that accountability is called Charter Schools. They may be imperfect. They may suck. But they are the only thing that holds school boards accountable.

Wesley, you are absolutely correct. Nothing is perfect but Charter Schools only suck if you are a union supporter. LOL

[MSUguy]

psst.... that accountability is called Charter Schools. They may be imperfect. They may suck. But they are the only thing that holds school boards accountable.

The selling point of charters was they were going to improve the quality of education not be as just good or worse than exsisting public schools. DPS is worse shaped than ever, the charters aren't providing better better education the fact is charters been a failure in this city.

[mwilbert]

psst.... that accountability is called Charter Schools. They may be imperfect. They may suck. But they are the only thing that holds school boards accountable.

I don't really think so. Suppose lots of people send their kids to charter schools instead of their local public school. What are the consequences for the school board? None, I think. I'm not sure in what sense that is accountability.

[Chicago48]

Ms. Gresham should stop having children. Is she nuts?

[EastsideAl]

Maybe you should also complain that Canada isn't giving enough money to Detroit as Detroit is part of North America.

Ummmm... why? We're not Canadian, we're American [[or so I was told in school). We sure as hell pay taxes to both the Michigan and the U.S. governments.

[belleislerunner]

I own a home in Detroit and property taxes never once crossed my mind as an issue.

This is just a lazy excuse from someone looking for a handout.

Move on...

[hortonz]

It's always nice to hear from the Canadian Conservative party's mouthpiece on this blog. Tell me, enlightened Canadian visitor, what publication are you going to reference next: the Limbaugh Letter or Glen Beck's Blaze? For my American friends I would suggest you treat anything reported in the National Post the same way you treat anything you read in The National Enquirer. Rural idiocy is alive and well in Canada and we call it the federal Conservative government.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

The selling point of charters was they were going to improve the quality of education not be as just good or worse than exsisting public schools. DPS is worse shaped than ever, the charters aren't providing better better education the fact is charters been a failure in this city.

The selling point was that they were going to improve education. The real motivation was to transfer more tax dollars into private pockets.

[Canadian Visitor]

It's always nice to hear from the Canadian Conservative party's mouthpiece on this blog. Tell me, enlightened Canadian visitor, what publication are you going to reference next: the Limbaugh Letter or Glen Beck's Blaze? For my American friends I would suggest you treat anything reported in the National Post the same way you treat anything you read in The National Enquirer. Rural idiocy is alive and well in Canada and we call it the federal Conservative government.

I find this sort of post terribly frustrating and irritating.

My first few posts here were entirely original and focused on ideas like regional government for Detroit that could hardly be described as conservative or republican [[or democrat for that matter); subsequently I've posted links to stories from The Star [[not a conservative paper) and the National Post, among others.

I post stuff that I hope is either new or not discussed in a long time; and can stir debate [[hopefully thoughtful) on all sides. I freely confess to having been disappointed by some responses to many of my posts, which appeared knee-jerk and reactionary [[both left and right)

I am both non-partisan, and not narrowly ideological.

I support efficient governments that balance their budgets and personal freedoms, while having a strong preference for Canadian-style universal healthcare and believing that strong public pension plans to give everyone a decent retirement.

I don't see the world through a narrow myopic lense that must all be one way or the other.

And the National Post is not Fox news; its editorial slant leans right to be sure; but this is a story reproduced from the Bloomberg wire service and was on topic on Detroit.

I don't presume to tell residents of Detroit what is better or worse; but for those who lean progressive..........you're about to tell me Toronto is to the political right of Detroit? [[I'm laughing)............ and yes, our property taxes are lower..........its a reasonable topic to discuss and only a small and under-educated mind would suggest otherwise or seek to cast aspersions on another instead of discussing the topic at hand, and bringing facts to the argument.

Sigh.

[ABetterDetroit]

I find this sort of post terribly frustrating and irritating.

My first few posts here were entirely original and focused on ideas like regional government for Detroit that could hardly be described as conservative or republican [[or democrat for that matter); subsequently I've posted links to stories from The Star [[not a conservative paper) and the National Post, among others.

I post stuff that I hope is either new or not discussed in a long time; and can stir debate [[hopefully thoughtful) on all sides. I freely confess to having been disappointed by some responses to many of my posts, which appeared knee-jerk and reactionary [[both left and right)

I am both non-partisan, and not narrowly ideological.

I support efficient governments that balance their budgets and personal freedoms, while having a strong preference for Canadian-style universal healthcare and believing that strong public pension plans to give everyone a decent retirement.

I don't see the world through a narrow myopic lense that must all be one way or the other.

And the National Post is not Fox news; its editorial slant leans right to be sure; but this is a story reproduced from the Bloomberg wire service and was on topic on Detroit.

I don't presume to tell residents of Detroit what is better or worse; but for those who lean progressive..........you're about to tell me Toronto is to the political right of Detroit? [[I'm laughing)............ and yes, our property taxes are lower..........its a reasonable topic to discuss and only a small and under-educated mind would suggest otherwise or seek to cast aspersions on another instead of discussing the topic at hand, and bringing facts to the argument.

Sigh.

If your not here to push your version of hate you are a asset to this forum CV. Sometimes it gets a little snarky but that's the way it is when people hide behind a keyboard.

[erikd]

It has direct control over which streets get light, which roads get paved, which schools stay open and what areas get sewers and water service...etc.

no one is repopulating or infilling Detroit massively abandoned single family home neighborhoods in anything approaching the foreseeable future. There are way, way too many other options for suburban style living across the economic strata. those need to be deleted. there is no economic case for the existence of blocks with one or two homes left out of 20.

The city has actually been doing this on a widespread level for years... The city has closed an incredible number of schools, libraries, parks, community centers, police stations, and fire stations. In addition to this, the city has also essentially stopped maintaining the infrastructure across large swaths of the city.

The problem with this plan is that it doesn't work, partially because the total elimination of services to a neighborhood isn't legal, partially because most of these infrastructure systems are complex and intertwined, and partially because there are legacy costs that can't simply be ignored and avoided.

The city can not just simply cut off water and sewer service to a block or neighborhood just because it is no longer economically profitable to maintain service to the remaining residents. You can't just turn off the tap and evict taxpaying citizens from their homes just because the tax collections no longer cover the cost of maintaining services to that specific block or neighborhood.

Even if the city could legally cut off water, streetlights, etc. to the blocks/neighborhoods that are no longer economically profitable, the systems are not built to do so. The city doesn't have water and power shut-off switches that can just be turned off on a block-by-block basis. For example, you can't just turn off the streetlights and water service to the mostly depopulated and vacant blocks along E Lafayette [[Such as Meldrum, Concord, and Helen) without affecting service to Lafayette Park, Elmwood Park, Islandview, West Village, and Indian Village.

And even if the city could legally and functionally shut off services to blocks/neighborhoods that are no longer economically profitable, the city would still have to pay for the legacy costs and debts incurred by the former residents of those neighborhoods. Even if the city closed down all of the schools, parks, libraries, police stations, firehouses, water and sewer services, and streetlights in those neighborhoods, and laid off all the associated cops, firefighters, teachers, etc., the city would still have to pay their severance packages, pensions, and retiree benefits. In addition to the employee legacy costs, there are also the outstanding long-term municipal bonds that still need to be paid for.

[softailrider]

I don't want to start a side-tangent on ON, Canada vs Michigan tax levels......but when I see things like this posted I always wonder how well informed they are.

So....

Federal Income Tax - Canada

• 15% on the first $44,701 of taxable income, +
• 22% on the next $44,700 of taxable income [[on the portion of taxable income over $44,701 up to $89,401), +
• 26% on the next $49,185 of taxable income [[on the portion of taxable income over $89,401 up to $138,586), +
• 29% of taxable income over $138,586.

And Ontario

5.05% on the first $40,922 of taxable income, +
9.15% on the next $40,925, +
11.16% on the next $68,153, +
12.16% on the next $70,000, +
13.16 % on the amount over $220,000

In plain English; if you earned $50,000, and claimed nothing other than the basic-tax-exemption [[the amount everyone is allowed to earn tax free [[just over $11,000)

Your effective tax rate is 20%.

Payroll taxes are lower here than in the U.S.

The Ontario health tax is a few hundred dollars per year. [[pay zero if you're low income) .

And we do have sales tax of 13%........but groceries and rent are exempt; and i your low-income, your sales tax is full rebated to you in your tax return.

Oh, and you get healthcare that, excepting prescriptions/dental/vision........though prescriptions are covered if you're a senior or low income and low income kids get dental and vision.

***

Not a better/worse argument vis a vis the US......but to inform, as I suspect you imagine tax is much higher here than it is. Which is only true for booze/gas for the most part.

Currently our sales tax is six percent and our goods seem to be priced considerably lowery then those in Canada.
There isn't sales tax on groceries or rent in the U.S. either. Also, in Canada there's taxes on services that we do not tax at all.

[sumas]

YOU MAKE INTERESTING POINTS ERIKD. Last I looked I pay my water bill, gas electric, light my neighborhood, front and back, shovel my walks and elderly neighbors, mow lawns, taxes etc. The city does me no kindness. Went from 6 street lights to one. Humm. Keep most of my business in the city. Minamal online orders are from reputable companies that pay into state taxes.

LEAP is kind and calls us spacious residential, I look around and call it urban prairie. I love it, the sunrises are spectacular. Wildlife interesting though not fond of opossums. I see no particular investment in infrastructure. We just ignore the city, they ignore us. Works ok.

As always kudos though to police , firefighters and EMS. That is where they shine in my neighborhood at least. Tax should reap some service. Double their salary. True heros!

[Canadian Visitor]

Currently our sales tax is six percent and our goods seem to be priced considerably lowery then those in Canada.
There isn't sales tax on groceries or rent in the U.S. either. Also, in Canada there's taxes on services that we do not tax at all.

I don't want to contribute more than I have to taking us further off topic here [[which was really Detroit's property taxes and are they an impediment to renewal)...

However, to speak to your observations, prices, before tax are often higher in Canada, but that's not really a function of tax, and merits a whole separate thread. Worth adding that currently the exchange rate would mean 'identical' prices would be 25% higher in Canada, which, for the most part is in the ballpark. Though pricing variations are all over depending on the item/category.

No question Sales tax is lower in Michigan, my point, in response to another poster was that when considering all forms of taxation [[income, sales and property and payroll) you would find Cdn taxes aren't way higher, and when adjusted for the fact they cover most health costs [[whereas you have to buy insurance) pretty much a wash.

[Wesley Mouch]

And the real kicker about the "blame Detroiters" crap is no one ever considers the fact that the 600,000 people left behind withvery little means have to maintain their share of the infrastructure as well as the share of the infrastructure for the 1.2 million people who just up and left for the suburbs.

Or you might say 600,000 people decided to they were not willing to pay obscenely high taxes for pathetic city services and invested their money elsewhere, because it was the only way they felt they could help fix Detroit.

You can't blame the passengers for the sinking of the Titanic.

[softailrider]

I don't want to contribute more than I have to taking us further off topic here [[which was really Detroit's property taxes and are they an impediment to renewal)...

However, to speak to your observations, prices, before tax are often higher in Canada, but that's not really a function of tax, and merits a whole separate thread. Worth adding that currently the exchange rate would mean 'identical' prices would be 25% higher in Canada, which, for the most part is in the ballpark. Though pricing variations are all over depending on the item/category.

No question Sales tax is lower in Michigan, my point, in response to another poster was that when considering all forms of taxation [[income, sales and property and payroll) you would find Cdn taxes aren't way higher, and when adjusted for the fact they cover most health costs [[whereas you have to buy insurance) pretty much a wash.

I spend quite a lot of times with Canadians [[ mostly from Toronto) during the Winter when I'm down in FL. It seems that even wheN the two dollars were at par or that short time when the Canadian dollar was above ours Canadians were paying considerably more for there goods then they pay in the US. This is noticably reflected in conversation about the price of new automobiles down here compared to vehicle pricing in Canada.

When you stated in your last sentence that Americans have to buy there health insurance, some of us do, some don't. I'm sure you're aware there are lots of people who get health insurance payed for through their employer

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

I spend quite a lot of times with Canadians [[ mostly from Toronto) during the Winter when I'm down in FL. It seems that even wheN the two dollars were at par or that short time when the Canadian dollar was above ours Canadians were paying considerably more for there goods then they pay in the US. This is noticably reflected in conversation about the price of new automobiles down here compared to vehicle pricing in Canada.

When you stated in your last sentence that Americans have to buy there health insurance, some of us do, some don't. I'm sure you're aware there are lots of people who get health insurance payed for through their employer

If you are down in FL during the winter, I suspect you are retired and on Medicare. Perhaps you are therefore unaware of the extent to which employers have been increasing premiums, deductibles and co-pays on their "employer provided" insurance.

[Gpwrangler]

I spend quite a lot of times with Canadians [[ mostly from Toronto) during the Winter when I'm down in FL. It seems that even wheN the two dollars were at par or that short time when the Canadian dollar was above ours Canadians were paying considerably more for there goods then they pay in the US. This is noticably reflected in conversation about the price of new automobiles down here compared to vehicle pricing in Canada.

When you stated in your last sentence that Americans have to buy there health insurance, some of us do, some don't. I'm sure you're aware there are lots of people who get health insurance payed for through their employer

People who have health insurance through their employer are not getting it for free.

[Canadian Visitor]

I spend quite a lot of times with Canadians [[ mostly from Toronto) during the Winter when I'm down in FL. It seems that even wheN the two dollars were at par or that short time when the Canadian dollar was above ours Canadians were paying considerably more for there goods then they pay in the US. This is noticably reflected in conversation about the price of new automobiles down here compared to vehicle pricing in Canada.

When you stated in your last sentence that Americans have to buy there health insurance, some of us do, some don't. I'm sure you're aware there are lots of people who get health insurance payed for through their employer

Perhaps I'll start a price comparison thread.

But the sake of amusement, I just googled a Toyota Dealership in Dearborn and a Ford one in Detroit.

And looked at the first 2 vehicles at random, on each site and compared then to Toronto dealerships.

Toyota:

Yaris [[identical 2015 models)

Dearborn $16,045USD [[appr. $20,000CDN)

Toronto $14,595CDN

Prius C

Dearborn $17,405USD [[appr. $21,700Cdn)

Toronto $21,055Cdn

***

Ford

Detroit: Fiesta SE $16,446 USD [[appr $20,500Cdn)

Toronto: Fiesta SE $17,564Cdn

Detroit: Focus SE $18,466USD [[appr. $23,000Cdn)

Toronto Focus SE$22,864CDN


Admittedly, Cdn prices are before Sales Tax.........

[Honky Tonk]

Perhaps I'll start a price comparison thread.

But the sake of amusement, I just googled a Toyota Dealership in Dearborn and a Ford one in Detroit.

And looked at the first 2 vehicles at random, on each site and compared then to Toronto dealerships.

Toyota:

Yaris [[identical 2015 models)

Dearborn $16,045USD [[appr. $20,000CDN)

Toronto $14,595CDN

Prius C

Dearborn $17,405USD [[appr. $21,700Cdn)

Toronto $21,055Cdn

***

Ford

Detroit: Fiesta SE $16,446 USD [[appr $20,500Cdn)

Toronto: Fiesta SE $17,564Cdn

Detroit: Focus SE $18,466USD [[appr. $23,000Cdn)

Toronto Focus SE$22,864CDN


Admittedly, Cdn prices are before Sales Tax.........

How about after tax, destination, and dealer prep?

[softailrider]

If you are down in FL during the winter, I suspect you are retired and on Medicare. Perhaps you are therefore unaware of the extent to which employers have been increasing premiums, deductibles and co-pays on their "employer provided" insurance.

Not retired in the least, still working at least 5 days a week. In FL ten days per month in Nov, Dec, Jan , Feb and Mar. Thirty six years same company in June, 2015. I'll be happy to retire when nobody wants me anymore or I feel I'm not capable of preforming job functions. Fifty eight in December, no Medicare yet.

[softailrider]

Perhaps I'll start a price comparison thread.

But the sake of amusement, I just googled a Toyota Dealership in Dearborn and a Ford one in Detroit.

And looked at the first 2 vehicles at random, on each site and compared then to Toronto dealerships.

Toyota:

Yaris [[identical 2015 models)

Dearborn $16,045USD [[appr. $20,000CDN)

Toronto $14,595CDN

Prius C

Dearborn $17,405USD [[appr. $21,700Cdn)

Toronto $21,055Cdn

***

Ford

Detroit: Fiesta SE $16,446 USD [[appr $20,500Cdn)

Toronto: Fiesta SE $17,564Cdn

Detroit: Focus SE $18,466USD [[appr. $23,000Cdn)

Toronto Focus SE$22,864CDN


Admittedly, Cdn prices are before Sales Tax.........

Thats actually way cheaper then I thought for vehicles over there. Thanks for the info, I consider myself enlightened.