It's Over-Northland to Close

[nain rouge]

It would be very hard to imagine a scenario where a Hazel Park or a South Warren or a Gratiot/7 Mile could ever be gentrified.

I don't know. I have an in-law in St. Paul that I visit frequently, and I see Hazel Park or Gratiot/7 Mile-style neighborhoods that do very well in that city. I'm talking clean, internationally diverse neighborhoods with quality commercial districts and close proximity to light rail.

I agree that Detroit isn't like Brooklyn or Boston. I would say, however, that it's extremely similar to the Twin Cities and Milwaukee. And it's worth examining why those cities have been much more successful than Detroit proper.

[softailrider]

In part, you're comparing apples to oranges. Metro Detroit doesn't have particularly "good bones". There aren't alot of 19th century warehouse neighborhoods, or brownstone areas, or Victorian cottages. We mostly have working class, mass-produced housing. We're more LA than Brooklyn or Boston.

It would be very hard to imagine a scenario where a Hazel Park or a South Warren or a Gratiot/7 Mile could ever be gentrified. The best that could be hoped for would be some immigrant group comes in and makes the area vibrant, but it would still be a fairly unattractive, utilitarian area devoid of charm.

Charm is in the eye of the beholder. If you're a young couple just starting out or a single mom who needs decent schools and a roof over your kids head and the price of the housing is right those areas might seem a lot more charming then you think.

[mtburb]

But in Metro Detroit, a factory closes and it's usually curtains for the neighborhood. Why is that?

As another person said, it's because we didn't begin to sprawl out until the 1890's and we have so many homes that aren't attached to each other that we can be comparable to the average Los Angeles neighborhood of one-to-two-story suburban homes along tree-lined side streets laid out in grids and one-story commercial buildings along the major thoroughfares spaced a mile apart [[yes, they too use the Public Land Survey System grid) and not to the average Manhattan neighborhood.

In fact, what they have in Beverly Hills, Bel-Air and the Hollywood Hills, we also have them in Grosse Pointe, Grosse Ile and the Bloomfields. And what they have in Orange County, we have in Macomb Township. As a matter of fact, just like ours, their downtown is also cemented in by three freeways and a river: the Harbor Freeway/I-75, I-10/M-10, US 101/I-375 and the Los Angeles River/the Detroit River. Alameda Street [[though mostly a lot more industrial) in their downtown is positioned similar to Jefferson Avenue in our downtown and so forth.

We aren't in 1954 and 1955 any more. We're in 2014, but in days we're leaving that for 2015. We have to find a solution that will help our neighborhoods get back into shape like they were when we were still in the half of the United States with the most factories.

[canuck]

In the past quarter century I have witnessed a transformation of the old industrial sector of Southwest Montreal. Along the Lachine canal, there used to be a very diverse set of huge factories that have been transformed into condos or offices. Now that there are fewer remaining of those, the tendency continues but there are newer buildings that imitate the typology of older factories to give the effect of loft spaces in retro or modern blocks. Like Detroit, we had industries that just melted away. In the northern parts of the city, the garment trade employed at least 50,000 people 30 years ago and the huge buildings around Chabanel or Casgrain street clusters are now occupied by other trades or are condoized. The locomotive construction and naval shipyards have all but disappeared to be replaced by Aeronautics firms in terms of prominence. Refineries in the east.end of the city were huge but are slowly disappearing. They might come back because Alberta is plugging more natural gas pipelines our way but frankly there is a lot of.resistance to oil here.

[Gpwrangler]

Who's to blame from Northland Mall's demise?

1. More low income black Detroiters [[pacified under welfare, WIC and food stamps) have moved from their ghetto hoods to Southfield, Oak Park, R.O.T. also called Royal Oak Township and Lathrup Village.

2. Constant thefts from mostly black males donning Trayvon Martins.

3. Putting up black owned ghetto marts. There's even a tattoo shop there. A tattoo shop!!!

I not blaming any of those folks, but the folks who build those areas and left simply because black folks [[mostly from Detroit) are moving in by the thousands.

Now a some big [[possibly) black mega church is coming to the old JCPenney anchor Building! Sounds silly to put a church next to a den of thieves. After service folks will be saying 'Praise the Lord, let's go shopping.'

Eastland Mall will be next to die in 30 years. Close that mall up and put some gov't subsidized housing and some neighborhoods would end up look like Brewster Projects by the year 2070.

Northland Mall is truly an historic mall, a representation of modern regional automation alley shopping district. Putting trashy stores will not work. It chases middle income customers away.

Save our piece of suburban Detroit history, Save Northland Mall.

^^^^^^ smh

[erikd]

Not exactly as far as the bolded.

The problem with Hazel Park and Warren is that they were heavily dependent on the good paying warehouse and factory jobs that, since the early 1980s, have since been automated out of existence or offshored.

So now, in those cities, you essentially have a generation or two of government-dependent people who consider the trailer trash/hillbilly lifestyle "normal," similar to what happened in much of Detroit and the ghetto lifestyle those who remain consider "normal" when its factory/warehouse jobs disappeared.

That said, those who could afford to leave, or chose to leave, DID flee to the Shelby Townships and Birminghams of today.

This assertion has some interesting and thoughtful points, but still misses the mark, in my opinion. If the decline of Warren and Hazel Park is due to the loss of manufacturing/warehousing/offshoring/etc., then how do we explain the simultaneous resurgence of the neighboring suburbs of Ferndale and Royal Oak?

I fail to see how Hazel Park was more dependent on factory/warehouse type jobs than Ferndale was. They were both very similar in terms of size, housing stock, and dependance on the old style manufacturing economy of Metro Detroit. The main difference between Ferndale and Hazel Park is the treatment of their traditional main streets. Over the last few decades, Hazel Park has demolished most of their traditional main street buildings around their city center at 9 and John R, and replaced them with crappy strip malls and fast food drive-thru restaurants. On the other hand, Ferndale has done the opposite, and has preserved many of their traditional main-street storefront buildings at their city center of 9 and Woodward.

The end result of these two different development strategies are very clear. The small suburb that decided to tear down their traditional main street buildings in favor of auto-centric strip-malls and drive-thrus is simply not as desirable as the small suburb next door that preserved their traditional main street buildings. All you have to do is go to 9 and John R, get out of your car, and walk around for a few minutes. Then go down the street to 9 and Woodward, get out of your car, and walk around for a few minutes. It is obvious which setting is nicer and more attractive to residents.

[erikd]

I think Bham has a [[gulp) point. When you have too much real estate for the population, it's easier to move on than thoughtfully reinvest. If look at old pictures of the 8-9 Mile & Van Dyke area, for example, it was actually very attractive.

Over time, however, the original design of that particular commercial strip was scrapped in favor of bigger parking lots and cheap buildings that heavily favored function over form. The end result was the destruction of a neighborhood's very fabric - its essence - at a subtle but ultimately very perceptible level. Now, there's little to no appeal left in that section of Van Dyke.

Which, of course, stands in contrast to the original goal of making the Van Dyke corridor more appealing to the tastes of later generations. After all, Van Dyke had to compete with the very successful strip malls seen on Big Beaver or John R. So, in a way, it makes sense that developers added more parking and built budget versions of popular suburban architecture. Where developers failed in their thinking was assuming that a hodgepodge of '80s/'90s suburbia and classic '40s storefronts would ever be desirable.

It wasn't and isn't. The people that wanted modern suburbia moved to modern suburbs. The people that wanted neighborhoods with corner stores and walkable retail districts moved to neighborhoods that could still provide a semblance of that, like Ferndale. In my opinion, it's very difficult to successfully change the design of a neighborhood once it's been built. You can update, sure, but if you ignore the original character of the neighborhood while doing so, it's almost never good.

I had family that grew up in Hazel Park, and I can tell you, it was an attractive area at one time. It wasn't Birmingham, but it was a nice, old-fashioned middle class suburb. This idea that Warren and Hazel Park were always dumps is revisionist history. The transformation is the logical conclusion of poor regional planning.

This is a great post with excellent insight and historical perspective.

I always say the same things about developments in the city, especially the stuff done in the 70s-early 2000s. It is a huge mistake for a city or older traditional style suburb to try to emulate or replicate auto-centric exurban development styles.

The people who want to live in a modern suburban setting will move to modern suburbs. The people who want to live in traditional main-street suburbs or city centers will move to city neighborhoods or suburbs that still retain those features. The people who want to live in a hodgepodge of traditional development and modern suburbia don't really exist, so those places become undesirable to nearly everybody, and just go into decline.

[313WX]

This assertion has some interesting and thoughtful points, but still misses the mark, in my opinion. If the decline of Warren and Hazel Park is due to the loss of manufacturing/warehousing/offshoring/etc., then how do we explain the simultaneous resurgence of the neighboring suburbs of Ferndale and Royal Oak?

I fail to see how Hazel Park was more dependent on factory/warehouse type jobs than Ferndale was. They were both very similar in terms of size, housing stock, and dependance on the old style manufacturing economy of Metro Detroit. The main difference between Ferndale and Hazel Park is the treatment of their traditional main streets. Over the last few decades, Hazel Park has demolished most of their traditional main street buildings around their city center at 9 and John R, and replaced them with crappy strip malls and fast food drive-thru restaurants. On the other hand, Ferndale has done the opposite, and has preserved many of their traditional main-street storefront buildings at their city center of 9 and Woodward.

The end result of these two different development strategies are very clear. The small suburb that decided to tear down their traditional main street buildings in favor of auto-centric strip-malls and drive-thrus is simply not as desirable as the small suburb next door that preserved their traditional main street buildings. All you have to do is go to 9 and John R, get out of your car, and walk around for a few minutes. Then go down the street to 9 and Woodward, get out of your car, and walk around for a few minutes. It is obvious which setting is nicer and more attractive to residents.

The fact is people where typically move to where they can earn a decent living first, while their quality of life is typically considered a secondary concern.

It is true that Ferndale and Royal Oak have managed to remain healthy cities because they have become bedroom/commuter towns for those who are forced to work in the Southfields and Troys of the region. They're satisfying the desire for an environment that's severely lacking in Metro Detroit, which is a walkable "big city" environment.

The problem with Warren & Hazel Park is once the factory/warehouse jobs left, there was nothing else to attract people as they weren't very aesthetically pleasing places.

However, I'm willing to bet Warren and Hazel Park would be much healthier today if people knew they could still live in those communities [[close to their jobs) and earn a decent middle class living at a neighborhood factory/warehouse.

Just as well, I'd be willing to bet that Ferndale and Royal Oak would be just as run down as Warren & Hazel Park had they destroyed their town centers. I doubt people would even consider living in Ferndale & Royal Oak if they couldn't find a job in Metro Detroit and if their commutes would be long.

[Towne Cluber]

This assertion has some interesting and thoughtful points, but still misses the mark, in my opinion. If the decline of Warren and Hazel Park is due to the loss of manufacturing/warehousing/offshoring/etc., then how do we explain the simultaneous resurgence of the neighboring suburbs of Ferndale and Royal Oak?

I fail to see how Hazel Park was more dependent on factory/warehouse type jobs than Ferndale was. They were both very similar in terms of size, housing stock, and dependance on the old style manufacturing economy of Metro Detroit. The main difference between Ferndale and Hazel Park is the treatment of their traditional main streets. Over the last few decades, Hazel Park has demolished most of their traditional main street buildings around their city center at 9 and John R, and replaced them with crappy strip malls and fast food drive-thru restaurants. On the other hand, Ferndale has done the opposite, and has preserved many of their traditional main-street storefront buildings at their city center of 9 and Woodward.

The end result of these two different development strategies are very clear. The small suburb that decided to tear down their traditional main street buildings in favor of auto-centric strip-malls and drive-thrus is simply not as desirable as the small suburb next door that preserved their traditional main street buildings. All you have to do is go to 9 and John R, get out of your car, and walk around for a few minutes. Then go down the street to 9 and Woodward, get out of your car, and walk around for a few minutes. It is obvious which setting is nicer and more attractive to residents.

Erikd, likewise your assessment and comparison of Hazel Park and Ferndale is inaccurate and revisionist. The same certainly goes for any comparison with Royal Oak.

1. Ferndale, both north as well as west of its downtown in particular, has a much nicer stock of housing than anything found in Hazel Park.

2. Ferndale benefits greatly from its proximity to Woodward Avenue. John R in Hazel Park isn't even close.

3. The "traditional Main Street buildings" that you spoke of in Hazel Park consisted of outdated-then dilapidated-then abandoned Holiday Inn on one corner [[replaced with a CVS and Tim Horton's) and two strip malls that were torn down and replaced with another two strip malls.

4. Ferndale always had a core of traditional Main Street buildings whereas there was nothing even remotely close in Hazel Park.

In fact, Ferndale's resurgence benefited from the above mentioned points along with:

1. Narrowing 9 Mile in its main street downtown, reducing the speed limit there, adding parallel parking, and decorative landscaping.

2. The addition of bars/restaurants/some stores/a loft building catering to a younger population.

3. Marketing itself the the gay and lesbian population.

[G-DDT]

Aww...I'll never get to finish the 2 hour application at the electronic kiosk where I left off at the questionaire [[which shares it's results with a "third party") that asks about one's sentiments towards cops or politicians

[masterblaster]

In part, you're comparing apples to oranges. Metro Detroit doesn't have particularly "good bones". There aren't alot of 19th century warehouse neighborhoods, or brownstone areas, or Victorian cottages. We mostly have working class, mass-produced housing. We're more LA than Brooklyn or Boston.

It would be very hard to imagine a scenario where a Hazel Park or a South Warren or a Gratiot/7 Mile could ever be gentrified. The best that could be hoped for would be some immigrant group comes in and makes the area vibrant, but it would still be a fairly unattractive, utilitarian area devoid of charm.

The city of Detroit has many neighborhoods that would appeal to gentrifiers/urban pioneers

Woodward & Lawrence

Linwood & Elmhurst

Greenfield & Grand River


Unfortunately, these neighborhoods are crime-ridden, blighted, and populated by working class black folk, and were abandoned by white folks so long ago, they are largely forgotten.

[DetroitBoy]

I found some very interesting information about the history of Northland and several of the malls that were built during the Cold War era. Designed by Victor Greun, many of the malls of that era were built outside of an 8 mile radius of a city center in the event of a nuclear attack. As it turns out, 8 miles was the blast range for nuclear bombs of that era. Greun designed several malls across the country based on the same concept of a open area in the center with two anchor stores in a multi-level structure where the lower level could be used as a fall out shelter in the event of a nuclear attack. Northland's design is around this concept. The lower level has multiple fall out shelters which at one time included supplies. The concept also was built around the area being a self contained city with housing, shopping, churches and hospitals all adjacent to the mall in order to facilitate the continuation of cities in the event of an attack which destroyed the central downtown. Green also designed Southdale in Minneapolis with this concept. The links below give more details on the concept of the malls of that area and photos of the Northland fall out shelter.

So I guess Northland, Eastland and Westland all have significance in the area's Cold War history:

http://curbed.com/archives/2014/06/1...ican-malls.php

http://www.michigancivildefense.com/...outhfield.html

Didnt anyone like my investigation about the Cold War significance of the lowwr level fallout shelters? Didnt anyone ever work at these malls and get it on with a co-worker in the underground stock rooms off the hallways of these shelters? Either way this is some significant history here people!

[Hermod]

This assertion has some interesting and thoughtful points, but still misses the mark, in my opinion. If the decline of Warren and Hazel Park is due to the loss of manufacturing/warehousing/offshoring/etc., then how do we explain the simultaneous resurgence of the neighboring suburbs of Ferndale and Royal Oak?

I fail to see how Hazel Park was more dependent on factory/warehouse type jobs than Ferndale was. They were both very similar in terms of size, housing stock, and dependance on the old style manufacturing economy of Metro Detroit. The main difference between Ferndale and Hazel Park is the treatment of their traditional main streets. Over the last few decades, Hazel Park has demolished most of their traditional main street buildings around their city center at 9 and John R, and replaced them with crappy strip malls and fast food drive-thru restaurants. On the other hand, Ferndale has done the opposite, and has preserved many of their traditional main-street storefront buildings at their city center of 9 and Woodward.

The end result of these two different development strategies are very clear. The small suburb that decided to tear down their traditional main street buildings in favor of auto-centric strip-malls and drive-thrus is simply not as desirable as the small suburb next door that preserved their traditional main street buildings. All you have to do is go to 9 and John R, get out of your car, and walk around for a few minutes. Then go down the street to 9 and Woodward, get out of your car, and walk around for a few minutes. It is obvious which setting is nicer and more attractive to residents.

Could you not say the same thing about Woodward Ave and John R. in Detroit?

[erikd]

Erikd, likewise your assessment and comparison of Hazel Park and Ferndale is inaccurate and revisionist. The same certainly goes for any comparison with Royal Oak.

1. Ferndale, both north as well as west of its downtown in particular, has a much nicer stock of housing than anything found in Hazel Park.

2. Ferndale benefits greatly from its proximity to Woodward Avenue. John R in Hazel Park isn't even close.

3. The "traditional Main Street buildings" that you spoke of in Hazel Park consisted of outdated-then dilapidated-then abandoned Holiday Inn on one corner [[replaced with a CVS and Tim Horton's) and two strip malls that were torn down and replaced with another two strip malls.

4. Ferndale always had a core of traditional Main Street buildings whereas there was nothing even remotely close in Hazel Park.

In fact, Ferndale's resurgence benefited from the above mentioned points along with:

1. Narrowing 9 Mile in its main street downtown, reducing the speed limit there, adding parallel parking, and decorative landscaping.

2. The addition of bars/restaurants/some stores/a loft building catering to a younger population.

3. Marketing itself the the gay and lesbian population.

I'll respond point-by-point:

1. I will cede to your point of Ferndale having nicer housing stock in some areas, specifically north and west of downtown. The housing stock south east of downtown Ferndale is very similar to the adjacent neighborhoods in Hazel Park, but you are correct that that isn't the case for all of Ferndale.

2. Ferndale has benefitted recently from it's proximity to Woodward, but Hazel Park "benefitted" from I-75, and actually had much more new construction and investment in their downtown than Ferndale did for most of the second half of the 20th century.

3 & 4. Hazel Park had traditional main street buildings along John R and 9 Mile. Most of them were demolished to make way for the strip malls and Holiday Inn. Check out this picture of John R and 9 Mile from the 1950s: http://freepages.history.rootsweb.an...cal/9johnr.jpg

As far as your points on Ferndale's resurgence, I think we are pretty much in agreement. In recent years, Ferndale has invested in traditional storefront buildings and pedestrian friendly infrastructure, while Hazel Park has been investing in more strip malls and auto-centric developments.

[erikd]

Could you not say the same thing about Woodward Ave and John R. in Detroit?

You could say the same thing about many different areas. As far as a comparison between John R and Woodward, in Detroit specifically, I don't know if there is a similar type of example, due to the fact that Woodward and John R are just a block apart through most of the city.

[mtburb]

I'll respond point-by-point:

1. I will cede to your point of Ferndale having nicer housing stock in some areas, specifically north and west of downtown. The housing stock south east of downtown Ferndale is very similar to the adjacent neighborhoods in Hazel Park, but you are correct that that isn't the case for all of Ferndale.

2. Ferndale has benefitted recently from it's proximity to Woodward, but Hazel Park "benefitted" from I-75, and actually had much more new construction and investment in their downtown than Ferndale did for most of the second half of the 20th century.

3 & 4. Hazel Park had traditional main street buildings along John R and 9 Mile. Most of them were demolished to make way for the strip malls and Holiday Inn. Check out this picture of John R and 9 Mile from the 1950s: http://freepages.history.rootsweb.an...cal/9johnr.jpg

As far as your points on Ferndale's resurgence, I think we are pretty much in agreement. In recent years, Ferndale has invested in traditional storefront buildings and pedestrian friendly infrastructure, while Hazel Park has been investing in more strip malls and auto-centric developments.

This reminds me of how several downtown areas down in this part of the region have benefited...

Allen Park has benefited from Southfield Road and it's proximity to I-94.
Flat Rock has benefited from Telegraph Road and it's proximity to I-75.
Lincoln Park has benefited from being at the junction of Fort and Southfield, as well as it's proximity to I-75.
Romulus has benefited from Metro Airport, I-94 and I-275.
Trenton and Wyandotte have benefited from the Detroit River, being along one of the oldest roads in the region and their direct proximity to Fort Street and indirect proximity to I-75.

Plus, all but pretty much Flat Rock still have traditional Main Street buildings.

[Towne Cluber]

I'll respond point-by-point:

1. I will cede to your point of Ferndale having nicer housing stock in some areas, specifically north and west of downtown. The housing stock south east of downtown Ferndale is very similar to the adjacent neighborhoods in Hazel Park, but you are correct that that isn't the case for all of Ferndale.

2. Ferndale has benefitted recently from it's proximity to Woodward, but Hazel Park "benefitted" from I-75, and actually had much more new construction and investment in their downtown than Ferndale did for most of the second half of the 20th century.

3 & 4. Hazel Park had traditional main street buildings along John R and 9 Mile. Most of them were demolished to make way for the strip malls and Holiday Inn. Check out this picture of John R and 9 Mile from the 1950s: http://freepages.history.rootsweb.an...cal/9johnr.jpg

As far as your points on Ferndale's resurgence, I think we are pretty much in agreement. In recent years, Ferndale has invested in traditional storefront buildings and pedestrian friendly infrastructure, while Hazel Park has been investing in more strip malls and auto-centric developments.

2. Ferndale benefiting from its proximity to Woodward Avenue dates back to the 1920s, it isn't a recent phenomenon. Given that part of the Hazel Park commercial strip along John R was torn out for the construction of I-75 in the 1960s, the proximity benefit claim is a draw at best and a detriment at worst. Certainly not even remotely comparable to Ferndale and Woodward Avenue. To claim that Hazel Park "actually had much more new construction and investment in their downtown than Ferndale did for most of the second half of the 20th century" is dubious at best.

3 & 4. Also in the 1960s, the northeast corner storefronts were demolished to make way for a civic center. The southwest corner [[including 2 blocks of housing to the west of John R) storefronts were demolished to make way for the Holiday Inn [[now a strip mall). The Northwest corner [[including 2 blocks of housing to the west of John R) school was demolished to make way for a mini Mall [[now a strip mall).

My main point is that Hazel Park [[a younger city than Ferndale) never had the same chance to develop a main street downtown as Ferndale and that any comparison isn't really accurate.

[jonathanlivingstonseagull]

Didnt anyone like my investigation about the Cold War significance of the lowwr level fallout shelters? Didnt anyone ever work at these malls and get it on with a co-worker in the underground stock rooms off the hallways of these shelters? Either way this is some significant history here people!

I thought it was really cool. Very interesting.

[DetroitBoy]

I thought it was really cool. Very interesting.

Thanks Johnathan!

[erikd]

[Rolfsy]

Of the 'Parks' neighboring Ferndale, I can't decide if Oak Park or Hazel Park wins the "1950s happened to us in the worst way" award. It's like they are different sides of the same coin of big dumb etch-a-sketch planning.

The Northland dystopia bordering OP looks like a greater catastrophe now, but was very popular for some decades. What did being the E-ways whipping boy ever do for HP? You can see evidence of how this may have been spun for locals - i.e. the Orwellian 'Progress Drive' that is the westbound 696 service drive near the horse track. [[Oh wow.... horse track... there's another 50s notch for HP - a sea of almost-never-used surface parking that rivals Northland).

[Danny]

More bad news folks! Macy's is thinking about closing its Northland Mall location. Macy's will be the last anchor Department Store in Northland Mall to be closed. Northland Mall is truly dying!

[erikd]

[erikd]

2. Ferndale benefiting from its proximity to Woodward Avenue dates back to the 1920s, it isn't a recent phenomenon. Given that part of the Hazel Park commercial strip along John R was torn out for the construction of I-75 in the 1960s, the proximity benefit claim is a draw at best and a detriment at worst. Certainly not even remotely comparable to Ferndale and Woodward Avenue. To claim that Hazel Park "actually had much more new construction and investment in their downtown than Ferndale did for most of the second half of the 20th century" is dubious at best.

3 & 4. Also in the 1960s, the northeast corner storefronts were demolished to make way for a civic center. The southwest corner [[including 2 blocks of housing to the west of John R) storefronts were demolished to make way for the Holiday Inn [[now a strip mall). The Northwest corner [[including 2 blocks of housing to the west of John R) school was demolished to make way for a mini Mall [[now a strip mall).

My main point is that Hazel Park [[a younger city than Ferndale) never had the same chance to develop a main street downtown as Ferndale and that any comparison isn't really accurate.

I have posted a number of pictures showing what Hazel Park looked like before the widespread demolition of the classic main street buildings. It is simply not true to say that Hazel Park never had the chance to build a main street downtown, because they actually had one. As the pictures show, Hazel Park had a nice collection of classic main street buildings until the decision was made to demolish them to make way for new construction and investment.

The construction of the strip malls, drive-thrus, and the Holiday Inn were absolutely considered to be positive and beneficial for Hazel Park. Freeways, strip malls, and other auto-centric developments were highly desired examples of modern development and progress, while traditional main street buildings were seen as outdated and undesirable.

The desirability of late 20th century auto-centric building types and arrangements is now on the decline, and the preference for classic main street buildings is on the rise. When Hazel Park demolished the old Holiday inn building, they had an opportunity to shift direction, and build something that could help revive their main intersection and begin to recreate their lost main street downtown. As it turned out, Hazel Park decided to double-down on the auto-centric model, and chose to build a crappy CVS, complete with parking lots along John R and 9 Mile.

[Towne Cluber]

I have posted a number of pictures showing what Hazel Park looked like before the widespread demolition of the classic main street buildings. It is simply not true to say that Hazel Park never had the chance to build a main street downtown, because they actually had one. As the pictures show, Hazel Park had a nice collection of classic main street buildings until the decision was made to demolish them to make way for new construction and investment.

The construction of the strip malls, drive-thrus, and the Holiday Inn were absolutely considered to be positive and beneficial for Hazel Park. Freeways, strip malls, and other auto-centric developments were highly desired examples of modern development and progress, while traditional main street buildings were seen as outdated and undesirable.

The desirability of late 20th century auto-centric building types and arrangements is now on the decline, and the preference for classic main street buildings is on the rise. When Hazel Park demolished the old Holiday inn building, they had an opportunity to shift direction, and build something that could help revive their main intersection and begin to recreate their lost main street downtown. As it turned out, Hazel Park decided to double-down on the auto-centric model, and chose to build a crappy CVS, complete with parking lots along John R and 9 Mile.

Let's break this down:

1. The Northeast corner of 9 Mile and John R was not demolished [[assuming business were there) for a strip mall, but for a civic center [[post office, city hall, court, police station, and library).

2. The Northwest corner of 9 Mile and John R was a school, not businesses.

3. One of the pictures you posted shows an empty parcel.

4. Some of the demolished blocks of businesses along John R were for the construction of I-75, which you previously stated was a "benefit". You can't have it both ways.

5. Your claim that "Hazel Park actually had much more new construction and investment in their downtown than Ferndale did for most of the second half of the 20th century" is both factually incorrect as well as completely contradicts your argument for Hazel Park having a classic downtown.

6. Ferndale's downtown redevelopment [[9 Mile) began in the late 1990s, which [[further) contradicts your claim that Hazel Park "actually had much more new construction and investment in their downtown than Ferndale did for most of the second half of the 20th century". That's not to mention developments along Woodward Avenue during that time.

7. Back to my point about housing [[recognizing that you acknowledged your previous error)...from its very beginnings, Hazel Park was known to have built "modest" homes for Ford workers, and in fact undertook an effort to rid the city of its substandard housing after WWII.

8. Again, to compare the benefits of proximity of Woodward Avenue with the proximity of I-75 isn't valid. No one would agree that an avenue intersecting a given area's downtown and main street is anything close to a freeway running through the main street of another area.

9. Like it or not, CVS and Tim Horton's revived that corner more than an abandoned hotel.