Was Ilitch seriously considering moving the Red Wings out of Detroit?

**dtowncitylover** · February-12-15, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by MAcc

No, not even close. Memory loss or denial? You realize Wayne State and DMC existed in midtown the 90s, right? You realize college kids, grad students and young MDs always lived in midtown, right? You realize there were 250K more middle class people living in Detroit in the 90s, right? Didn't city employees have to live in city proper prior to 2000? You realize Detroit has always had construction and restaurants, right?

I'll acknowledge progress when I see it. So far, I've just seen more of the same.

I remember being downtown in the 90s and it being empty, dark, and depressing. Hudson's a dark shell of its former self. All of those things were there, but did barely anything for the community. RenCen, Wayne State, DMC, New Center were all isolated islands. I don't remember Woodward between Warren and Mack having as much foot traffic even 7 years ago.

I suppose M-1 Rail, Carhartt, Whole Foods, Shinola, the Auburn, the Albert, David Whitney, David Broderick [[both closed in the 90s), MOCAD, Book Cadillac, Moosejaw, John Varvatos, Downtown Synagogue, reborn London Chop House and Joe Muer's are all examples of more of the same.

I guess when you see it, it's probably going to be the next time you go down there which sounds like it's been 15 years. When was the last time Detroit had as much construction and investment happening at once? The RenCen? That was one project that decimated downtown.

If you stand Grand River and Greenfield or 7 Mile and Kelly. Then yes, it's the same or worse. But you're completely wrong about downtown or midtown. We haven't seen this much positive change in awhile, if ever.

**Beech Cricker** · February-12-15, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by antongast

Or, hell, what's to stop Ilitch from asking for a new baseball stadium in four or five years when Comerica hits the two-decade mark? We need to figure out how to learn from our mistakes, or these scams will just get bigger and more frequent.

I hear ya! Shortly after the Copa opened I pegged its "lifespan" at 30-35 years. I'm still holding to that.

**southen** · February-12-15, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by MAcc

No, not even close. Memory loss or denial? You realize Wayne State and DMC existed in midtown the 90s, right? You realize college kids, grad students and young MDs always lived in midtown, right? You realize there were 250K more middle class people living in Detroit in the 90s, right? Didn't city employees have to live in city proper prior to 2000? You realize Detroit has always had construction and restaurants, right?

I'll acknowledge progress when I see it. So far, I've just seen more of the same.

well at least after this post you will know exactly why nobody will listen to you or take you seriously. at least those who werent already doing that. cheers.

**Bham1982** · February-12-15, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by southen

well at least after this post you will know exactly why nobody will listen to you or take you seriously. at least those who werent already doing that. cheers.

Actually no, he's one of the few rational posters on DYes.

It's simply a fact that Detroit had a lot more money and prosperity in the 1990's compared to now, unless you believe the U.S. Census is lying and part of some bizarre anti-Detroit conspiracy.

Detroit has something like half the number of middle class households as it had 20 years ago. Not 40-50 years ago, when the city was vibrant, I'm talking very recent history. The arrow is still pointing down, even if the pace of decline has slowed somewhat. The city is still emptier by the year.

**southen** · February-12-15, 03:59 PM

rational like posting that if the pistons played a few games at joe louis that there would be shootings along jefferson avenue? it is no surprise that you came to his defense. birds of a feather...

**dtowncitylover** · February-12-15, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Actually no, he's one of the few rational posters on DYes.

It's simply a fact that Detroit had a lot more money and prosperity in the 1990's compared to now, unless you believe the U.S. Census is lying and part of some bizarre anti-Detroit conspiracy.

Detroit has something like half the number of middle class households as it had 20 years ago. Not 40-50 years ago, when the city was vibrant, I'm talking very recent history. The arrow is still pointing down, even if the pace of decline has slowed somewhat. The city is still emptier by the year.

Well considering Detroit was still on the decline in the 1990s, your point is moot. You make it seem like suddenly Detroit came out of the 1980s and into some glorious 1990s where the whites moved back in and Hudson's reopened and the car companies gave everyone a job. No, none of that happened. People were still leaving in the 1990s, Hudson's was demolished, Merchants Row was basically shuddered, Cass Corridor was still our skid row, and the neighborhoods were burning.

Now we have momentum, the most positive momentum in my generation. The city is clearing away blight, businesses are opening up, city services are improving, housing is at a premium in the city center, and the city reputation getting better.

MAcc · February-12-15, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

I remember being downtown in the 90s and it being empty, dark, and depressing. Hudson's a dark shell of its former self. All of those things were there, but did barely anything for the community. RenCen, Wayne State, DMC, New Center were all isolated islands. I don't remember Woodward between Warren and Mack having as much foot traffic even 7 years ago.

I suppose M-1 Rail, Carhartt, Whole Foods, Shinola, the Auburn, the Albert, David Whitney, David Broderick [[both closed in the 90s), MOCAD, Book Cadillac, Moosejaw, John Varvatos, Downtown Synagogue, reborn London Chop House and Joe Muer's are all examples of more of the same.

I guess when you see it, it's probably going to be the next time you go down there which sounds like it's been 15 years. When was the last time Detroit had as much construction and investment happening at once? The RenCen? That was one project that decimated downtown.

Again, your short memory:

One Detroit Tower [[1993)
Westin Book Cadillac [[2008)
Motor City Casino [[1999)
MGM [[1999, 2007)
Greektown [[2000)
Compuware Building [[2000)
WSU's University Tower [[1995)
WSU's Halls [[2002, 2003, 2005)

1990-2000 > 2001-2015

Everything you cited probably doesn't add up to what the Cadillac Book cost to remodel. Seven years of "boom" since huh. Further, housing was always being developed in Detroit. It's like you think nobody remodeled any buildings in the 90s. Just like you all seem to act like the 20,000 Wings fans don't already come to Detroit for games.

**Gistok** · February-12-15, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Actually no, he's one of the few rational posters on DYes.

It's simply a fact that Detroit had a lot more money and prosperity in the 1990's compared to now, unless you believe the U.S. Census is lying and part of some bizarre anti-Detroit conspiracy.

Detroit has something like half the number of middle class households as it had 20 years ago. Not 40-50 years ago, when the city was vibrant, I'm talking very recent history. The arrow is still pointing down, even if the pace of decline has slowed somewhat. The city is still emptier by the year.

Get it straight... Downtown and Midtown were in worse shape... but the neighborhoods were indeed in better shape...

YOU calling someone one of the few rational posters on DYes.... oh the irony....

**Wesley Mouch** · February-12-15, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Get it straight... Downtown and Midtown were in worse shape... but the neighborhoods were indeed in better shape...

YOU calling someone one of the few rational posters on DYes.... oh the irony....

This is absolutely right. Downtown has really improved in the last 30 years. The neighborhoods have really declined in the last 30 years. Of this there is zero doubt.

We will soon get to see if downtown development in fact will lead to neighborhood rebirth, as some believe. Or was focusing on the rebirth of downtown, while the rest of the city slid into the abyss a mistake.

But back to the tread --- Ilitch never seriously considered moving the RW out of Detroit. Why would he? He's proven that he's committed to downtown. And even if you think he's made some mistakes [[as I do), there is zero doubt that he's done a lot of good for our fair city.

He pretty much got what he wanted. So he didn't have to consider a move. But if he city had been stupid, it would have received serious consideration.

**dtowncitylover** · February-12-15, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by MAcc

Again, your short memory:

One Detroit Tower [[1993)
Westin Book Cadillac [[2008)
Motor City Casino [[1999)
MGM [[1999, 2007)
Greektown [[2000)
Compuware Building [[2000)
WSU's University Tower [[1995)
WSU's Halls [[2002, 2003, 2005)

1990-2000 > 2001-2015

Everything you cited probably doesn't add up to what the Cadillac Book cost to remodel. Seven years of "boom" since huh. Further, housing was always being developed in Detroit. It's like you think nobody remodeled any buildings in the 90s. Just like you all seem to act like the 20,000 Wings fans don't already come to Detroit for games.

Lol The casinos barely amount to much considering they have barely lived up to their hype. Sure they're investment but they were planned haphazardly when they should've been part of some entertainment district. Book Cadillac is in my time frame that really launched it all. Wayne State apartments can't really be counted because they serve a very specific population that comes in for 4 years then leaves.

One Detroit Center was originally a twin towers set so so much for that 90s boom. 150 W. Jefferson is lucky to have been built at all considering it cost its original namesake everything.

But please continue to live in your fantasy world where 90s Detroit was so much better, full of activity, people, and momentum.

**davep** · February-24-15, 06:13 PM

The answer is NO. He could have easily gotten a new arena in the suburbs back in the late 90's, but the plan has always been to build an arena downtown. The majority of the Wings fan base comes from Wayne[[including Windsor) and Washtenaw County. Having the team downtown, makes it more centrally located. There was a time when Davidson and Ilitch had talks about merging the Pistons operations with Olympia and pooling their resources to build a joint facility, the end result being like the United Center in Chicago. These talks failed, city would not budge when it came to financing and arena revenues, plus the Wings were stuck with an ironclad lease at the Joe that ran from 1979 till 2009. After that, Davidson decided to build his own arena in Auburn Hills. He agreed to privately fund the Palace if Oakland County would fund the infrastructure. It worked out perfectly for him because he got to keep all the profits from parking and concession, which he would have had to share in Detroit. I think eventually the Pistons will join the Wings at the new arena. It will take some time and new ownership, but my guess would be that it happens by 2025. I wouldn't count out Gilbert selling the Cavs by then and buying the Pistons to move them downtown. When the Kings move into their new arena in downtown Sacramento, Pistons will the the only NBA team playing in the suburbs. Anyone remember Gilbert's quote... "Let's face it, [[arenas) don't belong in a farm field in the suburbs."

The original spot for the new Wings arena was supposed to be on the land Ilitch owns behind the Fox[[attached image). So there was a reason why those properties were never rehabbed. From what I've heard, when the M-1 streetcar was in the planning stage and the "new Woodward" was proposed, that's when Ilitch along with Tom Wilson[[who was specifically hired with the new arena in mind) saw an opportunity and went with an entertainment district instead of just building an arena. This had to make business sense and with the new development happening along Woodward, it sure looks like it. In the end, I'm glad we ended up with this project instead of just an arena behind the Fox.

**Bham1982** · February-25-15, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

L
But please continue to live in your fantasy world where 90s Detroit was so much better, full of activity, people, and momentum.

That "fantasy world" is 100% corroborated by Census data, which showed Detroit was significantly more populous, richer, and had more jobs back in the 1990's.

I guess you could plausibly argue that the Census is lying or something, but I doubt you have an army of stats PhDs to really make any sort of reasonable case.

**Bham1982** · February-25-15, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

Lol The casinos barely amount to much considering they have barely lived up to their hype.

The 3 Detroit casinos employ over 20,000 people, and are easily the biggest job providers downtown. They make the sainted Dan Gilbert's [[massively subsidized) job numbers look like bupkis.

**southen** · February-25-15, 08:32 AM

more people automatically equals better, more momentum, and activity?

**Bham1982** · February-25-15, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by southen

more people automatically equals better, more momentum, and activity?

Yes, obviously more people, jobs, and wealth are all good things for Detroit, and lead to better outcomes for the city.

Are you advocating for even fewer people in Detroit? Is that the new spin? Population loss is a sign of economic health and desirability?

**southen** · February-25-15, 08:39 AM

well if you skew the census to make your argument i guess i cant be surprised that a simple question immediately gets turned into me advocating for fewer people and spinning population loss into being good...

there are two ways of looking at it. downtown and midtown, which is primarily being discussed when it comes to momentum and activity, is far better off today than it was in the 90's. development news and the eyeball test are indicators of this.

most neighborhoods continue to struggle and that is primarily where the population loss has occurred. choosing this fact in a discussion of downtown/midtown and what is happening there is disingenuous and just goes to serve your schtick on this website.

**Bham1982** · February-25-15, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by southen

well if you skew the census to make your argument i guess i cant be surprised that a simple question immediately gets turned into me advocating for fewer people and spinning population loss into being good...

Detroit has lost people, wealth, and jobs, since the 1990's, and this is all confirmed by the Census. How is that "spinning things"? Can you explain how I am "skewing the Census"?

What would be your "spin"? Probably something about "ignore the data, just take my word for it"?

Originally Posted by southen

there are two ways of looking at it. downtown and midtown, which is primarily being discussed when it comes to momentum and activity, is far better off today than it was in the 90's. development news and the eyeball test are indicators of this.

most neighborhoods continue to struggle and that is primarily where the population loss has occurred. choosing this fact in a discussion of downtown/midtown and what is happening there is disingenuous and just goes to serve your schtick on this website.

Sorry, but no, I take actual Census data over your "eyeball test". There were more big projects downtown/midtown 20 years ago than now.

And Detroit is obviously the entire city, not one neighborhood. Obviously I'm judging Detroit as a whole, not slicing and dicing to fit some tortured stretch of an argument.

**Smirnoff** · February-25-15, 09:18 AM

Somebody was asking where the new live octupus store will be located in/at......remember who?

**mikeg19** · February-25-15, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

The 3 Detroit casinos employ over 20,000 people, and are easily the biggest job providers downtown. They make the sainted Dan Gilbert's [[massively subsidized) job numbers look like bupkis.

20,000? Really??? Damn, that's a lot more than I though it would be. I've never looked it up before, but I'd think somewhere in the 5-10K range.

**southen** · February-25-15, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Detroit has lost people, wealth, and jobs, since the 1990's, and this is all confirmed by the Census. How is that "spinning things"? Can you explain how I am "skewing the Census"?

What would be your "spin"? Probably something about "ignore the data, just take my word for it"?

Sorry, but no, I take actual Census data over your "eyeball test". There were more big projects downtown/midtown 20 years ago than now.

And Detroit is obviously the entire city, not one neighborhood. Obviously I'm judging Detroit as a whole, not slicing and dicing to fit some tortured stretch of an argument.

believe it or not, my spin would be discussing the areas in question that everyone else is currently discussing... if we are talking about downtown and midtown, how relevant is information that people have left in droves in the neighborhoods? in this discussion it is not. but you already know that.

big projects dont equate to momentum. havent you made that very same argument in the past regarding things like the stadiums? what you are seeing now is more people living in the areas WE are discussing and you are seeing spin off development throughout downtown and midtown. that is the difference.

glad to know that we cant talk about particular neighborhoods in the city anymore. i guess i dare not speak of anything in my neighborhood that may be positive because there are negative things happening in the city as a whole. solid argument.

**davep** · February-25-15, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by southen

big projects dont equate to momentum. havent you made that very same argument in the past regarding things like the stadiums?

I never understood that kind of thinking. Does anyone believe there would be something better in place of Comerica Park and Ford Field? It's not like that area was thriving at the time and someone was going to renovate Hudson's. At least with the stadiums in place there's an opportunity to do something and hopefully the new entertainment district continues with that.

ps-Anyone remember this?

The much rumored Olympia clone arena which would stand on the site of the long gone Tuller Hotel, and would be integrated into the abandoned United Artists Theatre / office building.

**southen** · February-25-15, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by davep

I never understood that kind of thinking. Does anyone believe there would be something better in place of Comerica Park and Ford Field? It's not like that area was thriving at the time and someone was going to renovate Hudson's. At least with the stadiums in place there's an opportunity to do something and hopefully the new entertainment district continues with that.

im not arguing against those developments, but they didnt immediately lead to much spinoff. they are also the reason why we lost buildings like the wolverine hotel, which given the current climate, would likely be redeveloped for residential. instead we have a parking lot that gets used on game days.

**emu steve** · February-25-15, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Get it straight... Downtown and Midtown were in worse shape... but the neighborhoods were indeed in better shape...

YOU calling someone one of the few rational posters on DYes.... oh the irony....

Gee, a succinct statement which 'disaggregates the aggregate' and states reality.

Downtown and midtown are very different, separate then the neighborhoods.

Statements which apply to one need not, and probably does not, apply to the other.

I'm completely amazed that folks refer to Detroit in the aggregate when in fact the whole city is in different phases of decline or rebirth [[e.g., downtown, Brush Park, Fairgrounds, etc.).

For the most part, folks come here for information usually related to the rebirth of aspects of the city.

**davep** · February-25-15, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by southen

im not arguing against those developments, but they didnt immediately lead to much spinoff. they are also the reason why we lost buildings like the wolverine hotel, which given the current climate, would likely be redeveloped for residential. instead we have a parking lot that gets used on game days.

Considering Detroit had numerous vacant hotels at the time, it seemed idiotic to have a vacant hotel next to a brand new stadium. And how long did it take to get to the current climate? It's just more proof that the city is better off now[[and going forward) than it was in the 90's.

**southen** · February-25-15, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by davep

Considering Detroit had numerous vacant hotels at the time, it seemed idiotic to have a vacant hotel next to a brand new stadium. And how long did it take to get to the current climate? It's just more proof that the city is better off now[[and going forward) than it was in the 90's.

i agree it is better off, but is it any different than all of his abandoned structures and lots two blocks away? how about the brewster projects that are a stones throw away. all you needed to do was mothball it OR be proactive and invest in it.