"Financial Armageddon" coming to Wayne County?

[313WX]

The thing that really pisses me off is that building a jail isn't something new. Why the hell could they not get it done.

Huge cost overruns and delays make more sense when you doing something unique and not done before, like Boston's big-dig, or a subway tunnel underneath a city of 8 million people.

But a jail? Really? Bah.

We ARE talking about Wayne County here...

[Hypestyles]

who else has the money to partner with Gilbert to buy these properties for redevelopment?

[DetroitBoy]

Have you seen that facility? Apparently not because you think it's adequate to upgrade. That place is stripped, gutted by urban miners. It's as if you would be starting from scratch to upgrade that place. You're going to spend the same amount of money there as downtown.

Please stop drinking Gilbert's kool-aid. There has been law enforcment facilities in that area since the 1840s. No one complained about them being an "eye-sore" and detrimental to development until Gilbert set his eyes on that bunch of property he wants for a song.

Wayne County's financial problems sources are multiple. The incomplete jail is just one of them. The Pinnacle Race Track & Aerotropolis that sits empty, the purchase of the Guardian Building, the generous pensions to appointees & Commissioners, etc are products of the Ficano administration. Does Evans have the ability to clean up these messes? Yeah, I think so, because he did so after following Ficano at the Sheriff's Office back in 2003.

Wayne County will have to get out of this on their own. Gilbert is not going to be the savior here because he doesn't want to cough up enough cash. I don't see Evans having a fire sale of County assets, particularly anything in the Greektown area. County employees & retirees will probably take the biggest hit on this one.

Whether it is palatable to you or not, the County is going to have to shed assets. The choice ones you mentioned above are examples of these. In terms of the 7 mile facility being scrapped, who's fault is that? If the county is so inept that they can't even secure a jail facility from criminals, what makes you think they are bright enough to make financial decisions on investing in a new jail? They need to cut their losses on that site and sell some of the more desirable assets NOW before the situation gets any worse.

I resent your comment about drinking the Gilbert Kool-aid. You should be thanking your lucky stars that he was willing to take the financial risk to buy and move his company to Detroit. There would be nothing happening without him as the catalyst. If you think the same leadership which created the mess in Wayne county is intelligent enough to resolve it, you must be employed there. Good Luck with it.

[bailey]

Whether it is palatable to you or not, the County is going to have to shed assets. The choice ones you mentioned above are examples of these. In terms of the 7 mile facility being scrapped, who's fault is that? If the county is so inept that they can't even secure a jail facility from criminals, what makes you think they are bright enough to make financial decisions on investing in a new jail? They need to cut their losses on that site and sell some of the more desirable assets NOW before the situation gets any worse.

What about 20 million is really "cutting losses" here though? Sure, you're cutting 13-14 months of carrying charges, but you still have 110 million in debt for a hole in the ground AND no jail.

[DetroitBoy]

What about 20 million is really "cutting losses" here though? Sure, you're cutting 13-14 months of carrying charges, but you still have 110 million in debt for a hole in the ground AND no jail.

It is a sunk cost and they are going to have to eat the difference. There is no recouping it. The longer they keep going with this the more money they are throwing down the rat hole. That place will never be finished with the current economic situation in the county. They have no funds to finish it and no way to raise any without selling assets.

[bailey]

It is a sunk cost and they are going to have to eat the difference. There is no recouping it. The longer they keep going with this the more money they are throwing down the rat hole. That place will never be finished with the current economic situation in the county. They have no funds to finish it and no way to raise any without selling assets.

That's Evan's point though, perhaps it MUST be finished if the only choice is giving it Gilbert for 20 mill. They need a jail, this one is half built and has 130 million spent on it, perhaps THIS asset is not the one needing to be sold.

[Khorasaurus]

That's Evan's point though, perhaps it MUST be finished if the only choice is giving it Gilbert for 20 mill. They need a jail, this one is half built and has 130 million spent on it, perhaps THIS asset is not the one needing to be sold.

Can it be finished? Do they have the funds? Can they borrow them? Would the contractors come back and finish after what happened the first time? How much of the half-built structure is still usable? It sat unfinished through the worst winter in Detroit's recorded history, plus another winter.

I'm not sure finishing the jail is an option.

[DetroitBoy]

Can it be finished? Do they have the funds? Can they borrow them? Would the contractors come back and finish after what happened the first time? How much of the half-built structure is still usable? It sat unfinished through the worst winter in Detroit's recorded history, plus another winter.

I'm not sure finishing the jail is an option.

It isn't an option. They need to have Kevyn Orr come back and seize control of the finances in order to resolve the situation. Problems this deep cannot be resolved by internal people who have their own welfare at stake.

[hortonz]

But on the bright side, DT Detroit's economic resurgence continues to gain steam and is spilling over into DT Windsor with the announcement that Lazare's Furs is moving into its' old landmark showroom in DT Windsor.

[Dan_the_man]

It is a sunk cost and they are going to have to eat the difference. There is no recouping it. The longer they keep going with this the more money they are throwing down the rat hole. That place will never be finished with the current economic situation in the county. They have no funds to finish it and no way to raise any without selling assets.

The point is that they need a new jail either way, and the cost to finish this jail is less than it would cost to fix up the Mound Rd. facility and relocate the courts, so finishing this jail is actually the cheaper option.

[Scottathew]

Would the contractors come back and finish after what happened the first time?

I highly doubt there were any unpaid contractors. In fact, quite possibly the opposite. If you pay them, they will build.

[DetroitBoy]

The point is that they need a new jail either way, and the cost to finish this jail is less than it would cost to fix up the Mound Rd. facility and relocate the courts, so finishing this jail is actually the cheaper option.

I don't believe that. They can refinish Mound road with part of the money from the sale of the jail. They are going to have to consolidate court locations and other operations in any scenario. It doesn't matter. In six months, there won't be any progress. The County will end up coming to a complete halt and an Emergency Manager appointed before any constructive actions take place.

[ABetterDetroit]

Assuming that previous financing contracts are null and void for wildly missing target dates for completed phases of the project, just how is anyone in their right mind going to loan them 200 mill plus when the county executive has declared that he is going to run out of money for all departments in August 2016? Seems to me, that the ability to get this jail built, even if you wanted to, no longer exists by the current fiscal health problem in which the county is mired. The risk of the construction loans defaulting is too high and makes this project unfinancable. Sometimes you're stuck between a rock and a hard place and have to make the best choice.

[jackie5275]

Whether it is palatable to you or not, the County is going to have to shed assets. The choice ones you mentioned above are examples of these. In terms of the 7 mile facility being scrapped, who's fault is that? If the county is so inept that they can't even secure a jail facility from criminals, what makes you think they are bright enough to make financial decisions on investing in a new jail? They need to cut their losses on that site and sell some of the more desirable assets NOW before the situation gets any worse.

I resent your comment about drinking the Gilbert Kool-aid. You should be thanking your lucky stars that he was willing to take the financial risk to buy and move his company to Detroit. There would be nothing happening without him as the catalyst. If you think the same leadership which created the mess in Wayne county is intelligent enough to resolve it, you must be employed there. Good Luck with it.

The only County assets that will be shed will be those of current employees & retirees. The Mound facility is owned by the State of Michigan. It's their responsibilty to keep it secured, not the County's. Pin that one on Snyder & the folks at MDOC.
I have no lucky stars to be thanking Gilbert with. His moves have had no impact on my life. You must work for him since you've been his cheerleader in this whole thread. The same leadership in Wayne County that's there now DID NOT create this mess. You need to pay attention to what's going on in local gov't. It affects you more than you think and more than what Gilbert does or not.

[jackie5275]

They can refinish Mound road with part of the money from the sale of the jail. They are going to have to consolidate court locations and other operations in any scenario.

The cost estimates for redoing Mound & moving the courts out there were $600 million dollars. Selling the unfinished jail for $20 million won't cover it. Pay attention please.

[DetroitBoy]

The cost estimates for redoing Mound & moving the courts out there were $600 million dollars. Selling the unfinished jail for $20 million won't cover it. Pay attention please.

I do not believe cost estimates on any project that are being provided by Wayne County. They have demonstrated their inability to make any prudent decisions and most people have no faith in their ability to run the county.

Everyone that works there had a hand in this fiasco including your former executive who just walked with no fallout from the gross mismanagement under his watch. I don't know any sitting executive who has had this type of corruption in their organization who escaped unscathed and did not have the integrity to stand up and take responsibility for what went on within his administration. As the top executive, he is responsible. To the contrary, Ficano came out brazenly denouncing any responsibility which just shows the magnitude of the lack of integrity of the people running the place.

I hope Govenor Snyder moves quickly to name an Emergency Manager for the county. A good house cleaning of the place is long overdue. A skilled person with knowledge of bankruptcy proceedings is needed instead of more elected politicos who will continue to serve up more of the same.

[bailey]

I do not believe cost estimates on any project that are being provided by Wayne County. They have demonstrated their inability to make any prudent decisions and most people have no faith in their ability to run the county.

Everyone that works there had a hand in this fiasco including your former executive who just walked with no fallout from the gross mismanagement under his watch. I don't know any sitting executive who has had this type of corruption in their organization who escaped unscathed and did not have the integrity to stand up and take responsibility for what went on within his administration. As the top executive, he is responsible. To the contrary, Ficano came out brazenly denouncing any responsibility which just shows the magnitude of the lack of integrity of the people running the place.

I hope Govenor Snyder moves quickly to name an Emergency Manager for the county. A good house cleaning of the place is long overdue. A skilled person with knowledge of bankruptcy proceedings is needed instead of more elected politicos who will continue to serve up more of the same.

All fine. But come on now. A courthouse, a holding facility, a juvenile detention facility and a new county jail is going to cost a bit more to build than 50 million [[which is Gilbert's offer for the package of buildings.)

What I'd like the county to do is exactly what they seem to be doing... putting the brakes on ALL of it and assessing the ACTUAL numbers. I'd think an offer north of 100 million for just the jail site would be something that makes financial sense. Pay off the fail jail debt and start new at Mound on just the new Jail.

[DetroitBoy]

All fine. But come on now. A courthouse, a holding facility, a juvenile detention facility and a new county jail is going to cost a bit more to build than 50 million [[which is Gilbert's offer for the package of buildings.)

What I'd like the county to do is exactly what they seem to be doing... putting the brakes on ALL of it and assessing the ACTUAL numbers. I'd think an offer north of 100 million for just the jail site would be something that makes financial sense. Pay off the fail jail debt and start new at Mound on just the new Jail.

I am getting very tired of listening to this constant commentary on the need for a new jail. Providing lock up space for criminals and juvenile delinquents is not the primary reason for having a county government nor should it be at the top of the list of priorities when roads, public safety and a host of other items should be a lot higher on the list. They have a place now to lock them up. Keep using it and send the overflow to other counties and towns and pay them for the space.

It is very frustrating to continue hearing that supporting the crime industry in Wayne County is as important as many other needs which should have a lot higher priority. In this financial crisis, people are going to have to decide if providing new, comfortable incarceration for criminals is more important than providing essential services. Since when did getting arrested mean the accommodations provided should be state of the art?

[ABetterDetroit]

What you want and what you need is often tied directly to what you can afford. The only exception is uncle sugar. They might be wise to get by continuing what they are doing now with prisoners for a while. If Wayne county goes under there will not be a grand bargin, just a lot of very unhappy pensioners after the mess is sorted out.

[jackie5275]

I am getting very tired of listening to this constant commentary on the need for a new jail. Providing lock up space for criminals and juvenile delinquents is not the primary reason for having a county government nor should it be at the top of the list of priorities when roads, public safety and a host of other items should be a lot higher on the list. They have a place now to lock them up. Keep using it and send the overflow to other counties and towns and pay them for the space.

It is very frustrating to continue hearing that supporting the crime industry in Wayne County is as important as many other needs which should have a lot higher priority. In this financial crisis, people are going to have to decide if providing new, comfortable incarceration for criminals is more important than providing essential services. Since when did getting arrested mean the accommodations provided should be state of the art?

You say that public safety is a top priority. How is the public going to be safe if criminals are not locked up? You call the jails a crime industry. Actually, it's more of a law enforcement industry. Crime industries are selling drugs, running chop shops, etc.

The plans for the new jail don't provide comfortable incarceration, but they are humane. Wayne County jail inmates sued over what they considered to be inhumane conditions back in the 1970s. The court order that came from that law suit to provide humane conditions is still in effect today.

I haven't stated on this thread that there is a need for a new jail. I, personally, don't think there is. Much of this, I think, was to establish a "Robert Ficano Justice Center". However, one of the jails is close to 100 years old. Mechanical things like HVAC, elevators, and sliding cell doors have only so long of a useful life, so I can see how some in power think one is needed to replace that 100 year old one. Then the thought is while we're at it we might as well go all the way and have one building to replace them all.

There are a whole lot more issues involved in the new jail build/not build decision that have been discussed in various sources around town. You need to pay attention to them before making comments & assertions from your bleacher bench view.

[bailey]

Providing lock up space for criminals and juvenile delinquents is not the primary reason for having a county government nor should it be at the top of the list of priorities when roads, public safety and a host of other items should be a lot higher on the list.

Last time I checked, locking criminals up is a large part of "public safety".

Wayne county has 2500+ prisoners spread across three facilities now. the consolidation of prisons into one 3000 bed facility was to [[as consolidations usually do) result in efficiencies that would have saved the county money over the long run. Ficano's regime botched it.

They have a place now to lock them up. Keep using it and send the overflow to other counties and towns and pay them for the space.

That is being penny wise and pound foolish. It costs money to house prisoners elsewhere [[if there is even the space to do it) and costs money to keep them spread across three facilities. Further Wayne County lost money when the US Marshalls stopped renting space from it because the facilities were so bad they wouldn't put prisoners there.

[Khorasaurus]

What I'd like the county to do is exactly what they seem to be doing... putting the brakes on ALL of it and assessing the ACTUAL numbers. I'd think an offer north of 100 million for just the jail site would be something that makes financial sense. Pay off the fail jail debt and start new at Mound on just the new Jail.

Unfortunately, when people sell real estate, they don't get the amount the want/need, they get the amount someone is willing to pay. And frankly I doubt there is anyone willing to pay more than Gilbert. Maybe they could get him up to $25-$30 million by playing hardball, but he also knows that if he waits for the County to go bankrupt, the Emergency Manager will sell it to him for $20 million or even less just to get rid of the carrying costs.

[bailey]

Unfortunately, when people sell real estate, they don't get the amount the want/need, they get the amount someone is willing to pay. And frankly I doubt there is anyone willing to pay more than Gilbert.

Sure, but we don't know if 50 million is all anyone will pay. Detroit is getting to be rather trendy. Maybe the Chicoms want to park some more money in the dirt over here as the have with the Freep building? I'd be down with an auction... if DG wants his fun zone, he can pay market rate. Maybe it IS 50 million....or maybe its 70-or 80 or maybe it's the 10 the county paid for it. Let's open it up and find out.... OR finish the damn jail. End of the day though, there are only those two choices...sell or finish, let's not sit on the site for 10 years.

Maybe they could get him up to $25-$30 million by playing hardball, but he also knows that if he waits for the County to go bankrupt, the Emergency Manager will sell it to him for $20 million or even less just to get rid of the carrying costs.

Or, DG could lose it to a group that has better connections to the new regime or to the EM and we get a parking deck on the site.

Or, he does get it for 20 million in that process. It'll be, what? 5-6 years from now in the best of cases? Meanwhile, he's been eating those years of losses at Greektown because he's not able to finish up his fun zone.

I'm going to go back to what I said earlier in the thread, I think this is Evans negotiating in the press. I'm betting a deal will be done because DG has a vision, has the money, and the County needs cash .

[DetroitBoy]

You say that public safety is a top priority. How is the public going to be safe if criminals are not locked up? You call the jails a crime industry. Actually, it's more of a law enforcement industry. Crime industries are selling drugs, running chop shops, etc.

The plans for the new jail don't provide comfortable incarceration, but they are humane. Wayne County jail inmates sued over what they considered to be inhumane conditions back in the 1970s. The court order that came from that law suit to provide humane conditions is still in effect today.

I haven't stated on this thread that there is a need for a new jail. I, personally, don't think there is. Much of this, I think, was to establish a "Robert Ficano Justice Center". However, one of the jails is close to 100 years old. Mechanical things like HVAC, elevators, and sliding cell doors have only so long of a useful life, so I can see how some in power think one is needed to replace that 100 year old one. Then the thought is while we're at it we might as well go all the way and have one building to replace them all.

There are a whole lot more issues involved in the new jail build/not build decision that have been discussed in various sources around town. You need to pay attention to them before making comments & assertions from your bleacher bench view.

Perception is reality and when it comes to the status of the County, it isn't good. The reason it isn't good is that there are a lot of people creating a lot of smoke about how there are 'a lot of issues' regarding spending more money for a rat hole project that is grossly over budget and was ill conceived from the start. What are people hoping for as a result of building this jail? Showcasing it as a stop on the City of Detroit Vistors Tour? This is what I am referring to by prioritizing resources to support the administration of the crime industry in the city.

Less political maneuvering on 'issues' and more common sense from those making these poor decisions could have avoided this situation and the pain for all that is now unavoidable. Unfortunately, common sense is in shorter supply than cash now in Wayne County government.

[ABetterDetroit]

Sure, but we don't know if 50 million is all anyone will pay. Detroit is getting to be rather trendy. Maybe the Chicoms want to park some more money in the dirt over here as the have with the Freep building? I'd be down with an auction... if DG wants his fun zone, he can pay market rate. Maybe it IS 50 million....or maybe its 70-or 80 or maybe it's the 10 the county paid for it. Let's open it up and find out.... OR finish the damn jail. End of the day though, there are only those two choices...sell or finish, let's not sit on the site for 10 years.


Or, DG could lose it to a group that has better connections to the new regime or to the EM and we get a parking deck on the site.

Or, he does get it for 20 million in that process. It'll be, what? 5-6 years from now in the best of cases? Meanwhile, he's been eating those years of losses at Greektown because he's not able to finish up his fun zone.

I'm going to go back to what I said earlier in the thread, I think this is Evans negotiating in the press. I'm betting a deal will be done because DG has a vision, has the money, and the County needs cash .

Detroit dirt is not going for 80 million a pop, if it was Wayne county's income problems would be fading fast [[property taxes). Auction is a great idea if its worth more than the 20 mill offered. The David Stott brought 9.4 mill for a pretty decent 38 story building in September 2013 at a well advertised open auction that Gilbert bailed out of. Can't let greed or mistakes run the day like it did when they auctioned the silverdome. If they do sell to anyone just get a development deal in a strong contract for x amount of square footage [[not just a parking deck) in x amount of time for a GD change.